Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Caroline R on July 16, 2012, 07:24:PM
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Please check out this link http://www.worldofjesus.org/The_Transfiguration.html
Please pay particular attention to this paragraph
"The Transfiguration of Elijah and Moses was foretold in the Old Testament scrolls, long before it will actually take place. Let's review some of these passages: "But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God forever and ever. I will praise Thee forever, because Thou hast done it (brought me/us back to physical LIFE): and I will wait on Thy Name; for it is good before Thy saints (Psalm 52:8-9)"
This passage is the one from the open bible found next to Sheila!
Surely too much of a coincidence and JM would have had to have been some genius to master mind this kind of elaborate touch?
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Please check out this link http://www.worldofjesus.org/The_Transfiguration.html
Please pay particular attention to this paragraph
"The Transfiguration of Elijah and Moses was foretold in the Old Testament scrolls, long before it will actually take place. Let's review some of these passages: "But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God forever and ever. I will praise Thee forever, because Thou hast done it (brought me/us back to physical LIFE): and I will wait on Thy Name; for it is good before Thy saints (Psalm 52:8-9)"
This passage is the one from the open bible found next to Sheila!
Surely too much of a coincidence and JM would have had to have been some genius to master mind this kind of elaborate touch?
Hi Caroline. I don't think Sheila had the same working knowledge of the Bible as June. I don't think she would have been capable of picking a random chapter and verse to make a point about something.............but I'm convinced that June would, and in that context, it may be, that to try to calm her June found a passage which she believed would work. Perhaps Sheila at some point had been in bed with June. Maybe she had been in bed with one of the boys and read it to them. And before the BGBs jump on me from a great height, YES, I KNOW IT'S SUPPOSITION.
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Hi Caroline. I don't think Sheila had the same working knowledge of the Bible as June. I don't think she would have been capable of picking a random chapter and verse to make a point about something.............but I'm convinced that June would, and in that context, it may be, that to try to calm her June found a passage which she believed would work. Perhaps Sheila at some point had been in bed with June. Maybe she had been in bed with one of the boys and read it to them. And before the BGBs jump on me from a great height, YES, I KNOW IT'S SUPPOSITION.
April1, it is however a massive coincidence. It may be possible that Sheila did know or had spoken to June about it earlier in the day.
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April1, it is however a massive coincidence. It may be possible that Sheila did know or had spoken to June about it earlier in the day.
Maggie! Hi and hope you're well. Yes, you're correct. At the end of the day, it isn't about WHO found it, but that it WAS found.
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April1, it is however a massive coincidence. It may be possible that Sheila did know or had spoken to June about it earlier in the day.
It may have been something that was mentioned - it's just rather significant because The Transfiguration is about 'rising after death'! And the 6th August happened to be the very dayThe Feast of Transfiguration is celebrated!
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It is also mentioned in conection with the number '3' which was significant in her note!
http://www.ridingthebeast.com/numbers/nu3.php
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It may have been something that was mentioned - it's just rather significant because The Transfiguration is about 'rising after death'! And the 6th August happened to be the very dayThe Feast of Transfiguration is celebrated!
Hi Caroline, yes, absolutely you made a really good point there and I find it hard to believe it was a coincidence....it is as you say, too significant and appropriate to the day. The page surely was chosen and in itself is a clue to Sheila's mindset.
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It may have been something that was mentioned - it's just rather significant because The Transfiguration is about 'rising after death'! And the 6th August happened to be the very dayThe Feast of Transfiguration is celebrated!
As you say, Caroline, a huge coincidence. I don't imagine Jeremy knew anything about the Transfiguration, other than, possibly after smoking dope!!!!!!
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As you say, Caroline, a huge coincidence. I don't imagine Jeremy knew anything about the Transfiguration, other than, possibly after smoking dope!!!!!!
Hi April yes I'm well, have had a bug since my holiday in Spain but getting better, hope your'e ok. I can't believe for a moment that Jeremy would have the faintest about The Transfiguration or that 6th April marked it. It is an assumption but one has to imagine that miraculously the bible opened at that page by chance or that it was left open there by June or Sheila.
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As you say, Caroline, a huge coincidence. I don't imagine Jeremy knew anything about the Transfiguration, other than, possibly after smoking dope!!!!!!
Hi Caroline, yes, absolutely you made a really good point there and I find it hard to believe it was a coincidence....it is as you say, too significant and appropriate to the day. The page surely was chosen and in itself is a clue to Sheila's mindset.
Obviously this is supposition but the transfiguration is about resurrection and being 'cleansed' perhaps Sheila thought that this is what would happen to the boys and this was how the whole tragedy started? The time of around 3am may also be significant. Just a thought!
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Obviously this is supposition but the transfiguration is about resurrection and being 'cleansed' perhaps Sheila thought that this is what would happen to the boys and this was how the whole tragedy started? The time of around 3am may also be significant. Just a thought!
It's a good thought Caroline. :) :)
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Surely too much of a coincidence and JM JB would have had to have been some genius to master mind this kind of elaborate touch?
April, I have taken the liberty of amending part of your post in the above quote. If Bamber has the wherewithal to predict the phenomena of mothers killing their children in future years... then I doubt he would have too much trouble pinning old testament verses bang on the money. :-\
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Obviously this is supposition but the transfiguration is about resurrection and being 'cleansed' perhaps Sheila thought that this is what would happen to the boys and this was how the whole tragedy started? The time of around 3am may also be significant. Just a thought!
Maybe she saw the Resurrection displayed on the wall of the Greek Monestery, but given that June had a grasp of the Bible, wouldn't you have thought she would have realized that before resurrection there is death and if Sheila was already aggitated, she would surely not have encouraged that line of thinking.
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April, I have taken the liberty of amending part of your post in the above quote. If Bamber has the wherewithal to predict the phenomena of mothers killing their children in future years... then I doubt he would have too much trouble pinning old testament verses bang on the money. :-\
Dear Roch, you are too kind, but the quote was not mine!!!.
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April, I have taken the liberty of amending part of your post in the above quote. If Bamber has the wherewithal to predict the phenomena of mothers killing their children in future years... then I doubt he would have too much trouble pinning old testament verses bang on the money. :-\
Roch, do you think mothers kill their children more often now than in the past or is it just more publicised because of all our means of communication. I remember someone in my neighbourhood whom I'd played with as a child, put sleeping pills on her little children's cereal and tried to gas herself. Fortunately, she was discovered and treated for mental illness. This was in the 70's and it was whispered about with much sympathy for the poor young woman. I believe women under extreme stress and mental illness have always done this.
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Roch, in your opinion, do you think Sheila was the first mother to kill her children?
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Maybe she saw the Resurrection displayed on the wall of the Greek Monestery, but given that June had a grasp of the Bible, wouldn't you have thought she would have realized that before resurrection there is death and if Sheila was already aggitated, she would surely not have encouraged that line of thinking.
Are we just assuming Sheila didn't have knowledge of the bible, she was certainly obsessed with her own interpretations and may very well have been extremely familiar with it.
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Dear Roch, you are too kind, but the quote was not mine!!!.
EEK! Sorry Caroline :-[
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Roch, in your opinion, do you think Sheila was the first mother to kill her children?
No Andi. It's probably gone on since the dawn of time. But I expect it was extremely rare around the time this happened and the decades leading up to it. I don't ever remember tragic stories of mother's killing their children in the press around that time. Fast forward to now... and it seems to be every other month, either a father or a mother committing murder of their children.
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No Andi. It's probably gone on since the dawn of time. But I expect it was extremely rare around the time this happened and the decades leading up to it. I don't ever remember tragic stories of mother's killing their children in the press around that time. Fast forward to now... and it seems to be every other month, either a father or a mother committing murder of their children.
Oh Roch, I'm convinced that little has changed other than jounalistic manners. There was a time when they respected a family's grief and didn't hide in bushes near to their house or trick neighbours into making comments that ended up as something quite other than what they had said.
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EEK! Sorry Caroline :-[
No worries :D
On a similar note - Melanie Ruddell killed her child also in the thought that he would return!
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Oh Roch, I'm convinced that little has changed other than jounalistic manners. There was a time when they respected a family's grief and didn't hide in bushes near to their house or trick neighbours into making comments that ended up as something quite other than what they had said.
There's nothing new about women or men having mental illness and killing themselves and their children while 'the balance of their minds was disturbed'. The difference as you say April is the way journalists and the tabloid press report it.
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To what ive read about JB i see nothing, no intrest in religion at all a certain yawning intrest like been sat next to gordon brown on a long train ride with no spare seats .
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To what ive read about JB i see nothing, no intrest in religion at all a certain yawning intrest like been sat next to gordon brown on a long train ride with no spare seats .
Nicely put Mertol ;D Im sure Jeremy didnt have the faintest idea about the transfiguration and its connection to the 6th of August but its interesting that Sheila very well may have.
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To what ive read about JB i see nothing, no intrest in religion at all a certain yawning intrest like been sat next to gordon brown on a long train ride with no spare seats .
Me either! Doesn't seem to be the religious type! As for sitting next to Gordon Brown on a train - I hear the coach is a good way to travel these days :)
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Me either! Doesn't seem to be the religious type! As for sitting next to Gordon Brown on a train - I hear the coach is a good way to travel these days :)
Coach is worse folks non stop talking morons with ipads and being stuck with a passenger with heavy BO stick to my tiny car thanks.
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Nicely put Mertol ;D Im sure Jeremy didnt have the faintest idea about the transfiguration and its connection to the 6th of August but its interesting that Sheila very well may have.
It seems more than a coincidence that the bible would be open at that time on that page. And with the significance of the number 3 it might be something worth looking into.
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We know that the Bible had been bled upon and then closed and then opened at this page, so while June may have shown it to Sheila in the beginning, I doubt that June was alive to re-open it.
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Morning Caroline R Thanks so much for the thread. I have always thought the murders at WHF had religious connotations and that the three Sheila wrote 5 times was very significant. Also the three marks on Ralph's back seem to fit this theory. I have done so much research on the significance of the 3 now you have it found for me. I wonder what the other numbers mean.
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We know that the Bible had been bled upon and then closed and then opened at this page, so while June may have shown it to Sheila in the beginning, I doubt that June was alive to re-open it.
This is what makes me think that Ann Eaton's witness statement was correct where she pointed out that she was informed that both June and Sheila were on the bed side by side, the gun between them (I think? ) and the Bible on Sheila's chest.
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This is what makes me think that Ann Eaton's witness statement was correct where she pointed out that she was informed that both June and Sheila were on the bed side by side, the gun between them (I think? ) and the Bible on Sheila's chest.
Good Morning Grahame,
Might it be that June had read Bible stories to Sheila when she was a child in the same way other parents read fairy stories to their children, and might this have been the method she employed to soothe Sheila when she became aggitated?
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Good Morning Grahame,
Might it be that June had read Bible stories to Sheila when she was a child in the same way other parents read fairy stories to their children, and might this have been the method she employed to soothe Sheila when she became aggitated?
Possibly. What people do not realise is that June was old school where reading the Bible was common place among the general population. Nowadays they would call such a person a Bible thumper, or a religious nut. But was not so long ago that people in Britain lived and had Christian values that were respected. People these days cannot understand that. In fact most today have difficulty understanding their contemporaries let alone those of previous generations. Sometimes I marvel at the ignorance of modern man in regards to human nature.
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If Sheila had become increasingly obsessed by religion and had grown up in a religious household (presumably this involved going to church) - why wouldn't Sheila herself have some knowledge of the bible? Because of her illness she had talked of her children being the devil's children - the Transfiguration is about being reborn (after death) and cleansed by god. Had the family been to church the previous Sunday? And had the Transfiguration been part of the service? As a Christian feast - why wouldn't it be? My brother was a paranoid schizophrenic (sadly also committed suicide) and I know how their mind twists things, it need only have been mentioned for it to later become an obsession!
I have informed the campaign team and also Jeremy - they agree that there might be something in it and it has never been mentioned before because they have never been able to find a specific significance for the bible being open at that page. Fingers crossed that something comes of it!!
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Possibly. What people do not realise is that June was old school where reading the Bible was common place among the general population. Nowadays they would call such a person a Bible thumper, or a religious nut. But was not so long ago that people in Britain lived and had Christian values that were respected. People these days cannot understand that. In fact most today have difficulty understanding their contemporaries let alone those of previous generations. Sometimes I marvel at the ignorance of modern man in regards to human nature.
I know Grahame, being of an older generation I am far less shocked by June's moral attitudes. My parents were intelligent rational people but their moral attitudes were far nearer to Junes than to modern day morals.
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If Sheila had become increasingly obsessed by religion and had grown up in a religious household (presumably this involved going to church) - why wouldn't Sheila herself have some knowledge of the bible? Because of her illness she had talked of her children being the devil's children - the Transfiguration is about being reborn (after death) and cleansed by god. Had the family been to church the previous Sunday? And had the Transfiguration been part of the service? As a Christian feast - why wouldn't it be? My brother was a paranoid schizophrenic (sadly also committed suicide) and I know how their mind twists things, it need only have been mentioned for it to later become an obsession!
I have informed the campaign team and also Jeremy - they agree that there might be something in it and it has never been mentioned before because they have never been able to find a specific significance for the bible being open at that page. Fingers crossed that something comes of it!!
You are so right Caroline, I think this is a very important point and one of those simple facts which seems to have slipped through the net. It speaks volumes. So sorry about your brother, mental illness is such a tragedy.xx
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If Sheila had become increasingly obsessed by religion and had grown up in a religious household (presumably this involved going to church) - why wouldn't Sheila herself have some knowledge of the bible? Because of her illness she had talked of her children being the devil's children - the Transfiguration is about being reborn (after death) and cleansed by god. Had the family been to church the previous Sunday? And had the Transfiguration been part of the service? As a Christian feast - why wouldn't it be? My brother was a paranoid schizophrenic (sadly also committed suicide) and I know how their mind twists things, it need only have been mentioned for it to later become an obsession!
I have informed the campaign team and also Jeremy - they agree that there might be something in it and it has never been mentioned before because they have never been able to find a specific significance for the bible being open at that page. Fingers crossed that something comes of it!!
Caroline, surely that could have been Sheila's suicide note.....Don't see how people can rubbish it ( unless they're totally thick) the chances of coincidence are rediculoucly slight, out of the whole bible?
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Morning mags yes you and I have discussed this issue before and always thought the murders/suicide had religious connotations I posted this up earlier today but as usual I get ignored. I think all the forum members other than you have me on "ignore". Ralph had three burn marks on his back 3 was written 5 times I really think Caroline is onto something we need to find out next what the numbers refer to next.
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You are so right Caroline, I think this is a very important point and one of those simple facts which seems to have slipped through the net. It speaks volumes. So sorry about your brother, mental illness is such a tragedy.xx
Thanks Maggie! I'ts easy for society to want to blame Jeremy because no one wants to believe any mother could kill her children - however, she wasn't well or thinking straight - she may have thought she was 'saving' them. Perhaps her intentions were to 'save' just the boys and have her mum, dad and herself as witnesses to their transfiguration (3 witnesses the same as Jesus had). It is quite possible that she turned violent (or went berserk) if someone intervened.
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[quote aut ;Dhor=susan ingham link=topic=2970.msg106678#msg106678 date=1342518422]
Morning mags yes you and I have discussed this issue before and always thought the murders/suicide had religious connotations I posted this up earlier today but as usual I get ignored. I think all the forum members other than you have me on "ignore". Ralph had three burn marks on his back 3 was written 5 times I really think Caroline is onto something we need to find out next what the numbers refer to next.
[/quote]Susie, I don't know how to put you on ignore or things may be different!! ;D
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If Sheila had become increasingly obsessed by religion and had grown up in a religious household (presumably this involved going to church) - why wouldn't Sheila herself have some knowledge of the bible? Because of her illness she had talked of her children being the devil's children - the Transfiguration is about being reborn (after death) and cleansed by god. Had the family been to church the previous Sunday? And had the Transfiguration been part of the service? As a Christian feast - why wouldn't it be? My brother was a paranoid schizophrenic (sadly also committed suicide) and I know how their mind twists things, it need only have been mentioned for it to later become an obsession!
I have informed the campaign team and also Jeremy - they agree that there might be something in it and it has never been mentioned before because they have never been able to find a specific significance for the bible being open at that page. Fingers crossed that something comes of it!!
Hi Caroline,,an excellent conclusion for which was a-typical of Sheila and her thoughts,,,and for which she wouldn't have seen any wrong in what she did. Therefore she wasn't responsible. Poor poor girl.
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Morning mags yes you and I have discussed this issue before and always thought the murders/suicide had religious connotations I posted this up earlier today but as usual I get ignored. I think all the forum members other than you have me on "ignore". Ralph had three burn marks on his back 3 was written 5 times I really think Caroline is onto something we need to find out next what the numbers refer to next.
Hi Susan, sorry, I missed your post - would never ignore anyone! :). There is a significance of the number 3 throughout the bible but has specific reference to the transfiguration because there were three witnesses to the Transfiguration of Jesus (Peter, John and James). As I said before, it might also be significant that the shootings happened around 3am.
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Hi Caroline,,an excellent conclusion for which was a-typical of Sheila and her thoughts,,,and for which she wouldn't have seen any wrong in what she did. Therefore she wasn't responsible. Poor poor girl.
Thanks Lookout! :)
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As we are all aware,,,there are mass killings/murders committed in the name of religion.
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Thanks Maggie! I'ts easy for society to want to blame Jeremy because no one wants to believe any mother could kill her children - however, she wasn't well or thinking straight - she may have thought she was 'saving' them. Perhaps her intentions were to 'save' just the boys and have her mum, dad and herself as witnesses to their transfiguration (3 witnesses the same as Jesus had). It is quite possible that she turned violent (or went berserk) if someone intervened.
Caroline, I have a bit of a theory, Sheila had been very withdrawn which often happens before a psychotic episode. If for whatever reason she decided to commit suicide, she would not leave her children behind but would take them with her. I don't see this as murder but rather accept that Sheila would see it as keeping them safe. However, Ralph or June could possibly have intervened at some point and that is how they were caught up in what was initially a suicide which turned into a domestic. I would have thought suicide was inevitable for a paranoid schizophrenic surrounded by guns and ammunition but of course, none of the family realised this til it was too late..... Now I agree with you concerning the transfiguration it makes total sense.
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Hi caroline I think you are a very perceptive clever young lady and a great asset to this forum. Just kidding about the ignore I can always answer my own posts :) :) :) I really think you are onto something with the latest regarding all the 3,s can't wait to explore it further.
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Hi mags
I can go with your theory but the 5 3,s written down to me means 5 people and what ever was going on in poor Sheila's mind was focused on the religious issues i.e. as Caroline says 3 a.m. and lets not forget the 3 marks on Ralph's back this must be connected.
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As we are all aware,,,there are mass killings/murders committed in the name of religion.
Yes lookout it's called religion but it's really just power and control and has nothing to do with spirituality and love.
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Caroline, I have a bit of a theory, Sheila had been very withdrawn which often happens before a psychotic episode. If for whatever reason she decided to commit suicide, she would not leave her children behind but would take them with her. I don't see this as murder but rather accept that Sheila would see it as keeping them safe. However, Ralph or June could possibly have intervened at some point and that is how they were caught up in what was initially a suicide which turned into a domestic. I would have thought suicide was inevitable for a paranoid schizophrenic surrounded by guns and ammunition but of course, none of the family realised this til it was too late..... Now I agree with you concerning the transfiguration it makes total sense.
Hi caroline I think you are a very perceptive clever young lady and a great asset to this forum. Just kidding about the ignore I can always answer my own posts :) :) :) I really think you are onto something with the latest regarding all the 3,s can't wait to explore it further.
Thanks Maggie/Susan :) :) - I agree that the intention was to 'save the boys' and herself - I think the violence stemmed from NB's inevitable intervention - She had a mission and sadly because of her illness, she would not be swayed.
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Hi mags
I can go with your theory but the 5 3,s written down to me means 5 people and what ever was going on in poor Sheila's mind was focused on the religious issues i.e. as Caroline says 3 a.m. and lets not forget the 3 marks on Ralph's back this must be connected.
I know Susie, I know the 3 probably stands for Father, Son and Holy Ghost, the 3 in 1. 3 has always been significant way before the Christian religion and although we know Sheila dabbled in white witchery etc her upbringing was definitely fire and brimstone christianity. So my theory wasn't fixed but more an idea as to what may have occcured because I don't believe any of the killings were done with premeditated hate. I think the bible pages being open at the Transformation fills in the missing links and that Sheila may very well have been tryng to 'save' her boys in the name of love. There's so much written about Sheila 'hating' June but I wuld imagine she would be far more likely to crave her approval than hate her.
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Hi caroline I think you are a very perceptive clever young lady and a great asset to this forum. Just kidding about the ignore I can always answer my own posts :) :) :) I really think you are onto something with the latest regarding all the 3,s can't wait to explore it further.
Hi Susan,,,it's only when one has had " experience " of a person like Sheila,,,either by living with them or nursing them,that you realise that they are capable of injuring,and or killing,regardless of whether they're male or female,,,and this is what confused the police and the jury at the trial of Jeremy.
Much was said about Sheilas' slightly-built frame,etc,but size is no barrier when it comes to a violent outburst of someone suffering from Schizophrenia,,and therefore they looked to the murders as having been committed by a man,and the only one left in the equation was Jeremy.
Very little thought went into the devastating effects that missing vital medication which counteracted the side-effects of another,,,was taken into consideration. All have adverse effects if not taken correctly,as one shouldn't be taken without the other.
Perhaps they should have all read-up about the effects of Stelazine,Anafranil and Haloperidol if not taken together as prescribed,,,as one would have had the desired calminative effect to which Sheila hadn't taken.
Maybe Sheila hadn't wanted to stay calm that night,otherwise what happened,mightn't have done.
It's worth going into what Caroline has written though,,as it would seem, plays a large part in what Sheila did that night,,after much thought on her part,,another reason for skipping her medication.
Caroline,,you've cracked it,girl. That was Sheilas' motive.
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Hi lookout yes I agree with your theory a girl was sentenced this week to 22 years for stabbing a young girl in the park for no reason whatsoever. She had aa episode and was held not responsible for her actions you may have heard it on the news I only half listen to news so missed the story but it did say the person responsible had been brought up without love as her Mother died when she was 15 and she was passed from pillar to post and nobody cared for her. The killing was carried out without any provocation and just happened.
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Lookout, you see the attitude still on this forum and the dark side with people talking about Sheila being a bit unwell or 'wouldn't hurt a fly'...all that stuff is dragged out time and time again. It goes with Jeremy Bamber is a psychopath eventhough he's been tested in everyway and forever and shows no signs. I'm sure Sheila was a lovely little girl who developed severe problems during her teenage years which became full blown paranoid schizophrenia in her 20s. That alone is a tragedy, but even in the 21st century so many people see mental illness as some sort of disgrace as if the person involved is in someway to blame. The whole event, Sheila's illness and the deaths are part of the tragedy as is Jeremy still sitting in prison, his is a living death.
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Hi lookout yes I agree with your theory a girl was sentenced this week to 22 years for stabbing a young girl in the park for no reason whatsoever. She had aa episode and was held not responsible for her actions you may have heard it on the news I only half listen to news so missed the story but it did say the person responsible had been brought up without love as her Mother died when she was 15 and she was passed from pillar to post and nobody cared for her. The killing was carried out without any provocation and just happened.
Hi Susan,,,yes,I saw that on the news. A very sad outcome,albeit very frightening too as it was completely random.
I'm thinking of the time when Sheila also visited that Monastery,,and why her fear when she exited. It would all tie-up with her thoughts and actions of that night at WHF.
I wonder if Sheila ever thought that Jeremy would get the blame.? Probably not really,,as her mind wasn't fully focussed.
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Hi lookout don't think for one moment Sheila would have given Jeremy a thought. Off now for my walk/run/walk walk/collapse :)
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Hi Susan,,,yes,I saw that on the news. A very sad outcome,albeit very frightening too as it was completely random.
I'm thinking of the time when Sheila also visited that Monastery,,and why her fear when she exited. It would all tie-up with her thoughts and actions of that night at WHF.
I wonder if Sheila ever thought that Jeremy would get the blame.? Probably not really,,as her mind wasn't fully focussed.
I doubt Sheila was in any way aware of blame etc lookout. Would think she was lost in her own world far away from rational thought.
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Hi lookout don't think for one moment Sheila would have given Jeremy a thought. Off now for my walk/run/walk walk/collapse :)
Watch out for storm drains, you never know who's in them! ;D
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Lookout, you see the attitude still on this forum and the dark side with people talking about Sheila being a bit unwell or 'wouldn't hurt a fly'...all that stuff is dragged out time and time again. It goes with Jeremy Bamber is a psychopath eventhough he's been tested in everyway and forever and shows no signs. I'm sure Sheila was a lovely little girl who developed severe problems during her teenage years which became full blown paranoid schizophrenia in her 20s. That alone is a tragedy, but even in the 21st century so many people see mental illness as some sort of disgrace as if the person involved is in someway to blame. The whole event, Sheila's illness and the deaths are part of the tragedy as is Jeremy still sitting in prison, his is a living death.
Exactly,,Maggie.Both victims whichever way you look at it.
Attitudes don't bother me Maggie,,,as not a week goes by for what some adult doesn't kill their partners/children through mental illness of sorts. It's sadly there for all to see.. We haven't travelled that far not to be able to detect it yet. Not enough research is done into the illness and its causes and implications,,as well as complications.
Where Jeremy has gained his strength from all these years,,I don't know,,but he hasn't needed a bible that's for sure,,,which I'm glad to hear about really,as those who are guilty usually turn to the bible,or become " Born again Christians ",,,thinking they'll be forgiven for their sins.
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Roch, do you think mothers kill their children more often now than in the past or is it just more publicised because of all our means of communication. I remember someone in my neighbourhood whom I'd played with as a child, put sleeping pills on her little children's cereal and tried to gas herself. Fortunately, she was discovered and treated for mental illness. This was in the 70's and it was whispered about with much sympathy for the poor young woman. I believe women under extreme stress and mental illness have always done this.
Yes, you and others who have suggested more restrictive reporting may very well be right. However, could it be that 27 years ago and the decades leading up to it, such crimes were more of a 'taboo'? I'm not suggesting that in today's age there is more 'acceptance'. Probably not the two best terms to use but I couldn't think of any other. More reporting = more precedence = general public being less sanitised = more occurances? Just a thought. I don't have any research or figures.
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Yes, you and others who have suggested more restrictive reporting may very well be right. However, could it be that 27 years ago and the decades leading up to it, such crimes were more of a 'taboo'? I'm not suggesting that in today's age there is more 'acceptance'. Probably not the two best terms to use but I couldn't think of any other. More reporting = more precedence = general public being less sanitised = more occurances? Just a thought. I don't have any research or figures.
More awareness,,Roch,,and not as taboo a subject as it once was,,,though we still have a long way to go about the intricacies of the brain.
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Yes, you and others who have suggested more restrictive reporting may very well be right. However, could it be that 27 years ago and the decades leading up to it, such crimes were more of a 'taboo'? I'm not suggesting that in today's age there is more 'acceptance'. Probably not the two best terms to use but I couldn't think of any other. More reporting = more precedence = general public being less sanitised = more occurances? Just a thought. I don't have any research or figures.
Yes Roch, it's hard to know really. I think there was a taboo on talking about this as there was on so many other things so we could argue that a more open society is a better society and generally I would agree with that. I do believe women have always killed their children along with themselves and it isn't a new phenomena. Gassing ie. ovens an gasfire pipes were the most common way before we had natural gas. Maybe more men kill their children these days as they tend to be more involved with their children on a day to day level and are therefore more emotionally involved. The advent of the car has given people a simple way of killing themselves and their children although more often it seems to be men who use this form of suicide.
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Thanks Maggie/Susan :) :) - I agree that the intention was to 'save the boys' and herself - I think the violence stemmed from NB's inevitable intervention - She had a mission and sadly because of her illness, she would not be swayed.
Caroline hi!!!! I've been away, since this morning at the funeral of a dear friend who would have loved to have got her teeth into this, and HOW you've moved it on since I was last online!!!!!!
Over the last few weeks Susan, Maggie, Lookout and I have added small pieces of our own to the jigsaw in relation to the religious aspect, but you seemed to have added a ginormous piece in one go. I think I speak for us all (well, at least I hope I do!!!) when I say that none of us have held Sheila culpable and believe her not to have been in control of what happened, although, curiously, she seems to have been so resolutely determined, she may have felt, possibly for the only time in her life, that she was.
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Hi april1 sorry to hear about the death of your dear friend. I agree Caroline has taken massive steps forward in the short time she has been on the forum we have been debating the religious connotations for months and she seems to have come up with the answer at once. Very well done Caroline. Yes april we all agree Sheila was as much as a victim as the others and was not responsible for her actions. Do you think it was her intention to take herself and boys to a better place and June and Ralph just got in the way so to speak of what she intended to do.
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Caroline hi!!!! I've been away, since this morning at the funeral of a dear friend who would have loved to have got her teeth into this, and HOW you've moved it on since I was last online!!!!!!
Over the last few weeks Susan, Maggie, Lookout and I have added small pieces of our own to the jigsaw in relation to the religious aspect, but you seemed to have added a ginormous piece in one go. I think I speak for us all (well, at least I hope I do!!!) when I say that none of us have held Sheila culpable and believe her not to have been in control of what happened, although, curiously, she seems to have been so resolutely determined, she may have felt, possibly for the only time in her life, that she was.
Hi April, so sorry to hear about your friend!!
I was expecting to be hit by a barrage of guilty followers telling me I must be mad! :D. I have forwarded the information to the campaign and they seem VERY interested. I hope it ends up being useful - I just can't see how anyone can simply dismiss it as coincidence!
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Do you think it was her intention to take herself and boys to a better place and June and Ralph just got in the way so to speak of what she intended to do.
Unless there was a deliberate all-out assault on June?
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Do you think it was her intention to take herself and boys to a better place and June and Ralph just got in the way so to speak of what she intended to do.
That's exactly what I think!!
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Hi april1 sorry to hear about the death of your dear friend. I agree Caroline has taken massive steps forward in the short time she has been on the forum we have been debating the religious connotations for months and she seems to have come up with the answer at once. Very well done Caroline. Yes april we all agree Sheila was as much as a victim as the others and was not responsible for her actions. Do you think it was her intention to take herself and boys to a better place and June and Ralph just got in the way so to speak of what she intended to do.
Susan, definitely I do. It's not just an adequate explanation, IMO it's a very intelligent one. Another possible connotation for "3" might be her and her boys?
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Hi april the figure 3 keeps coming up what about the three marks on Ralph's back and according to Caroline the incident happened at 3 a.m. I wonder what the other numbers meant that she wrote down they must be significant.
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Hi april the figure 3 keeps coming up what about the three marks on Ralph's back and according to Caroline the incident happened at 3 a.m. I wonder what the other numbers meant that she wrote down they must be significant.
Hi Susan, from what we know it happened sometime 'around' 3am because NB called Jeremy shorty after.
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Hi Caroline have you any idea what the other numbers referred to that was written down with the 5 three's they must have a significance probably relating to the Bible.
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Hi April, so sorry to hear about your friend!!
I was expecting to be hit by a barrage of guilty followers telling me I must be mad! :D. I have forwarded the information to the campaign and they seem VERY interested. I hope it ends up being useful - I just can't see how anyone can simply dismiss it as coincidence!
Caroline!!! That's really spooky!!! I deleted that part of my post which said something similar!! I picked up on, what IMO, was a critical reduction in her meds and that she hadn't been properly monitored afterwards. Both of my concerns were found to have been corroborated by her consultant. the BGBs insisted that there was nothing wrong with the reduction and they were content with the care she received. Had she been a member of my family I would have torn down walls to find out the reason her meds had been halved after the consultant had suggested a one quarter reduction, but sadly, anyone who might have cared enough to ask questions died with her.
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Caroline hi!!!! I've been away, since this morning at the funeral of a dear friend who would have loved to have got her teeth into this, and HOW you've moved it on since I was last online!!!!!!
Over the last few weeks Susan, Maggie, Lookout and I have added small pieces of our own to the jigsaw in relation to the religious aspect, but you seemed to have added a ginormous piece in one go. I think I speak for us all (well, at least I hope I do!!!) when I say that none of us have held Sheila culpable and believe her not to have been in control of what happened, although, curiously, she seems to have been so resolutely determined, she may have felt, possibly for the only time in her life, that she was.
Caroline, I should have added PATTI to that list . Huge apologies, PATTI xxx
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Hi Caroline have you any idea what the other numbers referred to that was written down with the 5 three's they must have a significance probably relating to the Bible.
Not really Susan, it's a pretty screwed up message and other than it's make up of things in 3's it obviously only meant something to her but I can make it even more cryptic :)
N M D (3)
B G D (3)
P L U (3)
O
G J
C F The last part of the message looks like a triangle and there are 3 letters on each side of the triangle - which makes another two sets of 3 letters. Then 'please' is also written 3 times.
What does it mean? No idea! :) However, some people with mental health problems suffer from OCD maybe it has something to do with that but it seems very personal to her and you could only ever surmise what she was trying to say.
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Not really Susan, it's a pretty screwed up message and other than it's make up of things in 3's it obviously only meant something to her but I can make it even more cryptic :)
N M D (3)
B G D (3)
P L U (3)
O
G J
C F The last part of the message looks like a triangle and there are 3 letters on each side of the triangle - which makes another two sets of 3 letters. Then 'please' is also written 3 times.
What does it mean? No idea! :) However, some people with mental health problems suffer from OCD maybe it has something to do with that but it seems very personal to her and you could only ever surmise what she was trying to say.
N M D could be the initials of the twins and Mummy...Then whoosh! I have wondered if the twins wrote that...but it was found in Sheila's room.. :) :) :) :)
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N M D could be the initials of the twins and Mummy...Then whoosh! I have wondered if the twins wrote that...but it was found in Sheila's room.. :) :) :) :)
I don't think any one would be able to crack this one Patti, there are so many possibilities.
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Not really Susan, it's a pretty screwed up message and other than it's make up of things in 3's it obviously only meant something to her but I can make it even more cryptic :)
N M D (3)
B G D (3)
P L U (3)
O
G J
C F The last part of the message looks like a triangle and there are 3 letters on each side of the triangle - which makes another two sets of 3 letters. Then 'please' is also written 3 times.
What does it mean? No idea! :) However, some people with mental health problems suffer from OCD maybe it has something to do with that but it seems very personal to her and you could only ever surmise what she was trying to say.
It COULD run:
No More Doubting
Blessing God Divine
Perfect Love Unites
Order
God Jesus
Celestial Family
please, please please
However, if she wrote these letters, it could be a Bletchly Park scenario, the letters cryptic and known only to her.
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It COULD run:
No More Doubting
Blessing God Divine
Perfect Love Unites
Order
God Jesus
Celestial Family
please, please please
However, if she wrote these letters, it could be a Bletchly Park scenario, the letters cryptic and known only to her.
Brilliant april....sounds good to me...but it is proving it...well done! ***** for you...
maggie do you think this is close? :) :) :) :)
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Hi Caroline I really think the letters meant something to Sheila I don't think the writing was of a 6 year old. I suppose we shall never know I nearly had them matching a list of Swedish Proverbs but did not quite match they were all to do with religion.
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Brilliant april....sounds good to me...but it is proving it...well done! ***** for you...
maggie do you think this is close? :) :) :) :)
Patt, we have no idea do we? It could be, but it could be nothing, the twins or goodness knows. It's supposition and just a guess........ sorry. Am off to take my daughter etc out for birthday meal, may speak later as won't be late due to baby aaaaagh she's so cute :-*
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Brilliant april....sounds good to me...but it is proving it...well done! ***** for you...
maggie do you think this is close? :) :) :) :)
Lovely Patti. Thankyou!!!! I did run it several weeks back but nobody picked up on it, which is fair enough 'cause it could be anything and I really don't fancy trying to take a journey inside her head to see what was going on.
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When my brother died, we found quite a few notes - stuff he'd written that just didn't make any sense, however, it must have done to him.
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The " Last Supper " was on a Wednesday,,,AD33. Before the Crucifixion,,,although that was in April.
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N M D could be the initials of the twins and Mummy...Then whoosh! I have wondered if the twins wrote that...but it was found in Sheila's room.. :) :) :) :)
Maybe it was, that's the problem - no one really knows who wrote it, let alone what it could possibly mean.
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Maybe it was, that's the problem - no one really knows who wrote it, let alone what it could possibly mean.
'Nother scenario. Granny gets the boys to practice their letters and makes them write "please" several times so they don't forget to say it.
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N M D could be the initials of the twins and Mummy...Then whoosh! I have wondered if the twins wrote that...but it was found in Sheila's room.. :) :) :) :)
I always thought that it was written by JB, look at the G... does anyone have any other handwriting by Sheila ?
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I always thought that it was written by JB, look at the G... does anyone have any other handwriting by Sheila ?
Unless there is a handwriting expert here it would again just be speculation on who wrote it.
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I always thought that it was written by JB, look at the G... does anyone have any other handwriting by Sheila ?
I've tried to match up the handwriting to JB before and in my opinion they don't match?
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I've tried to match up the handwriting to JB before and in my opinion they don't match?
Mike once published a handwritten letter he received from JB all in capitals and that G looked exactly the same to me !! I also remember that Mike spoke to JB about the note with a theory he had from someone else and JB said something along the lines of ' he is a clever bugg*r' it is on here somewhere... I think it is a running order for the killings but no S for Sheila... so I am probably completely wrong....
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Mike once published a handwritten letter he received from JB all in capitals and that G looked exactly the same to me !! I also remember that Mike spoke to JB about the note with a theory he had from someone else and JB said something along the lines of ' he is a clever bugg*r' it is on here somewhere... I think it is a running order for the killings but no S for Sheila... so I am probably completely wrong....
I think it is a case of one opinion is as good as another? For unfortunately it is a disconnected piece of the puzzle.