Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Elizabeth on February 05, 2011, 03:42:PM
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Is it possible that someone other than Jeremy or Sheila could be responsible for the murders that took place at White House Farm? Or is it certain that it can only be either one or the other? I think that there is another person who had motive for the killings, and could have possibly carried them out. I am not going to say that individual's name, obviously, and i am only speculating here. But to me, the person in question is highly suspicious, for a number of reasons.
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Your quite right.. the idea that it was either Jeremy or Sheila is just logical speculation... but the Police say Sheila didn't do it (now), JB say's he didn't do it... No reason to think a third isn't possible... but a whole lot of work to introduce now I would think.
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Is it possible that someone other than Jeremy or Sheila could be responsible for the murders that took place at White House Farm? Or is it certain that it can only be either one or the other? I think that there is another person who had motive for the killings, and could have possibly carried them out. I am not going to say that individual's name, obviously, and i am only speculating here. But to me, the person in question is highly suspicious, for a number of reasons.
If Neville phoned Jeremy then Sheila did it. If Neville didn't phone Jeremy, then Jeremy did it, or he got someone else to do it. I deduce from that that it must have been either Sheila or Jeremy.
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Thank you both for your replies!
If Neville phoned Jeremy then Sheila did it. If Neville didn't phone Jeremy, then Jeremy did it, or he got someone else to do it. I deduce from that that it must have been either Sheila or Jeremy.
I see what you mean, but isn't it possible that a third party could have forced Neville Bamber to make that call to Jeremy, so that Jeremy could then be set up for the murders?
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or even to get jeremy to the farmhouse then he could have been killed aswell?
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Thank you both for your replies!
If Neville phoned Jeremy then Sheila did it. If Neville didn't phone Jeremy, then Jeremy did it, or he got someone else to do it. I deduce from that that it must have been either Sheila or Jeremy.
I see what you mean, but isn't it possible that a third party could have forced Neville Bamber to make that call to Jeremy, so that Jeremy could then be set up for the murders?
Ooooh, interesting theory - very interesting. Worth thinking about anyway. You mean they got Neville to phone Jeremy to get Jeremy over to the house either to set him up or to kill him too?
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if there is a posiibility of a third person being responsible, then yeah why not ;D.
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neville was also growing opium poppies under government license for a pharmaceutical company.So if there was a third person could this have had any significance.just a thought.
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if there is a posiibility of a third person being responsible, then yeah why not ;D.
Hmmmmm, this is most interesting. So if Jeremy had been killed too, who would profit from that?
If the aim was to get Jeremy to the house and set him up, who would profit from that? Several people I suppose, but to speculate could be libellous.
There is a sticking point in this theory though. If there was a third party and they wanted to get Jeremy over to the house for whatever reason, would they have made Neville say that Sheila had a gun? They couldn't know how Jeremy would react to that - I would think it would have made him too scared to go over on his own, and they couldn't discount the possibility of him calling the police. Would they not have come up with something which would be more likely to get him over there?
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and also, a third person would have had to have knowledge of june and sheilas religious beliefs, as the bible is heavily involved.
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Quote from: andrea on Today at 04:35 PM
neville was also growing opium poppies under government license for a pharmaceutical company.So if there was a third person could this have had any significance.just a thought.
Oh, i didn't know that. Interesting!
Well, yes, Someone could have forced Neville to call Jeremy, hoping he would get to the farmhouse before the police. I didn't mean "for them to kill him", but to set him up for the murders. Also, i wasn't meaning an "unknown" person, but rather, someone closer to home.
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like i said in my earlier post if there was a 3rd person they would have known about the religious beliefs of june an d sheila with the bible being heavily involved, and only a person closer to home would know that. i think there is a post on here that mentions something about a relatives car being parked on pages lane the day of the murders, ill have another look for the post.
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There's a lot of stuff in Robert Boutflour's diary about drugs - something to do with the grandson of Mrs Foakes.
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like i said in my earlier post if there was a 3rd person they would have known about the religious beliefs of june an d sheila with the bible being heavily involved, and only a person closer to home would know that. i think there is a post on here that mentions something about a relatives car being parked on pages lane the day of the murders, ill have another look for the post.
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Yes, a car belonging to a distant relative who was working on the farm at that time - this person took a tractor back to Osea Road caravan park that night, leaving his vehicle parked up outside whf, overnight...
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Police find a den in a nearby copse, where someone had been sleeping rough, around the time of the shootings...
Here is yet another twist in the tale, of who might have been responsible, for killing the family...
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and didnt the police also say mike that they saw a scruffy hunched up figure walking away from the back of whitehouse farm, while they were there. i cant understand why the police didnt stop and take him into custody for questioning at that point. or at least try and trace him later to ask why he was on the grounds at whf
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Police find a den in a nearby copse, where someone had been sleeping rough, around the time of the shootings...
Here is yet another twist in the tale, of who might have been responsible, for killing the family...
and didnt the police also say mike that they saw a scruffy hunched up figure walking away from the back of whitehouse farm, while they were there. i cant understand why the police didnt stop and take him into custody for questioning at that point. or at least try and trace him later to ask why he was on the grounds at whf
Hmm, most interesting! Perhaps the idea of a third-party carrying out the shootings is not so far-fetched after all. I have been pondering this theory quite a lot lately (with reason, of course), and the more i think about it, the more it does add up (i am thinking specifically of one or more individuals when i say this.) It certainly IS possible. I know everything points to Sheila having committed the murders, but now i am convinced that "other persons" may have actually carried them out. If so, then the person(s) in question thought they had got away with the perfect crime.
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That kind of puts paid to the idea that Sheila was alive in the kitchen and then went upstairs and killed herself. It also means the theory of the re-enactment is out of the window.
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Kaldin, i am having a think about that one ;D. Will get back to you on that.
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Police find a den in a nearby copse, where someone had been sleeping rough, around the time of the shootings...
Here is yet another twist in the tale, of who might have been responsible, for killing the family...
and didnt the police also say mike that they saw a scruffy hunched up figure walking away from the back of whitehouse farm, while they were there. i cant understand why the police didnt stop and take him into custody for questioning at that point. or at least try and trace him later to ask why he was on the grounds at whf
Hmm, most interesting! Perhaps the idea of a third-party carrying out the shootings is not so far-fetched after all. I have been pondering this theory quite a lot lately (with reason, of course), and the more i think about it, the more it does add up (i am thinking specifically of one or more individuals when i say this.) It certainly IS possible. I know everything points to Sheila having committed the murders, but now i am convinced that "other persons" may have actually carried them out. If so, then the person(s) in question thought they had got away with the perfect crime.
If there was another person then I guess that person has got away with the perfect crime.
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Police find a den in a nearby copse, where someone had been sleeping rough, around the time of the shootings...
Here is yet another twist in the tale, of who might have been responsible, for killing the family...
and didnt the police also say mike that they saw a scruffy hunched up figure walking away from the back of whitehouse farm, while they were there. i cant understand why the police didnt stop and take him into custody for questioning at that point. or at least try and trace him later to ask why he was on the grounds at whf
Hmm, most interesting! Perhaps the idea of a third-party carrying out the shootings is not so far-fetched after all. I have been pondering this theory quite a lot lately (with reason, of course), and the more i think about it, the more it does add up (i am thinking specifically of one or more individuals when i say this.) It certainly IS possible. I know everything points to Sheila having committed the murders, but now i am convinced that "other persons" may have actually carried them out. If so, then the person(s) in question thought they had got away with the perfect crime.
If there was another person then I guess that person has got away with the perfect crime.
What could have been their motive?
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I don't think there was a third person, I think it clouds the issue.
Similarly, Jeremy's current lawyers have not pushed for it - I think it was Di Stefano who spoke of the underworld connections and I don't think it really works.
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I don't think there was a third person, I think it clouds the issue.
Similarly, Jeremy's current lawyers have not pushed for it - I think it was Di Stefano who spoke of the underworld connections and I don't think it really works.
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What about double circular marks found on the back of Ralph's neck - these have never been satisfactorily been explained?
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I don't think there was a third person, I think it clouds the issue.
Similarly, Jeremy's current lawyers have not pushed for it - I think it was Di Stefano who spoke of the underworld connections and I don't think it really works.
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What about double circular marks found on the back of Ralph's neck - these have never been satisfactorily been explained?
I haven't seen those so I don't know what they look like.
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I don't think there was a third person, I think it clouds the issue.
Similarly, Jeremy's current lawyers have not pushed for it - I think it was Di Stefano who spoke of the underworld connections and I don't think it really works.
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What about double circular marks found on the back of Ralph's neck - these have never been satisfactorily been explained?
I suppose we could look at the Julie Mugford statement which explains the involvement of a third party.
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If there was another person then I guess that person has got away with the perfect crime.
Not necessarily. If Jeremy's case is referred back to the court of appeal, and a fresh investigation is conducted through a retrial, then who knows what else they may uncover and what other charges might be brought against individuals. I am only speculating.
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I don't think there was a third person, I think it clouds the issue.
Similarly, Jeremy's current lawyers have not pushed for it - I think it was Di Stefano who spoke of the underworld connections and I don't think it really works.
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What about double circular marks found on the back of Ralph's neck - these have never been satisfactorily been explained?
Double circular marks found on the back of Ralph's neck? What could that possibly indicate, Mike?
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I don't think there was a third person, I think it clouds the issue.
Similarly, Jeremy's current lawyers have not pushed for it - I think it was Di Stefano who spoke of the underworld connections and I don't think it really works.
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What about double circular marks found on the back of Ralph's neck - these have never been satisfactorily been explained?
Double circular marks found on the back of Ralph's neck? What could that possibly indicate, Mike?
Hi Elizabeth, There is more on this subject under a previous post titled "Circular Burn Marks on Back of Ralph Bambers Neck" see page 3. Its an interesting subject and in my view support "another" person theory!
A previous post 1 Feb from me read -
Scenario no. 3
Has a theory ever been put forward on two murders entering whf, JB and an accomplice - one taking the children out the other dealing with the parents, with Shelia then being held and forced into a suicide position?
One using the loaded .22 Anchutz (10 bullets accounted to have been fired from this weapon) at whf and the other using what "Mike Tesko" has previously posted on and refers to as a "unique weapon", this weapon being found in the area by someone shortly after the murders and handed in to the police. Could this weapon have fired the other 15 bullets?
Burn marks on the back of Nevills neck apparently matching the barrel configuration of the unusual .22 rifle barrel over a shotgun barrel.
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There was speculation at the time that this was an execution style murder by hitmen. This was one of a number of theories that was being discussed by the locals.
I'm not sure there is anything in it myself.
As far as the drug connections went around Tollesbury back then, from what I'm aware, it was never on the scale of operations that led to the shoot-up in Rettendon some years later.
I find myself visualising proceedings again, and as I do so, it seems a more likely scenario with Shelia at the trigger.
Two hitmen....Shelia in a state of wildness...or cool and calculated Jeremy? Or, a cool and calculated Jeremy accompanied by McDonald?
Second option ticks the most boxes still for me.
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Double circular marks found on the back of Ralph's neck? What could that possibly indicate, Mike?
Hi Elizabeth, There is more on this subject under a previous post titled "Circular Burn Marks on Back of Ralph Bambers Neck" see page 3. Its an interesting subject and in my view support "another" person theory!
A previous post 1 Feb from me read -
Scenario no. 3
Has a theory ever been put forward on two murders entering whf, JB and an accomplice - one taking the children out the other dealing with the parents, with Shelia then being held and forced into a suicide position?
One using the loaded .22 Anchutz (10 bullets accounted to have been fired from this weapon) at whf and the other using what "Mike Tesko" has previously posted on and refers to as a "unique weapon", this weapon being found in the area by someone shortly after the murders and handed in to the police. Could this weapon have fired the other 15 bullets?
Burn marks on the back of Nevills neck apparently matching the barrel configuration of the unusual .22 rifle barrel over a shotgun barrel.
Hi Newbury1, thanks for that! I will check the post out now.
There was speculation at the time that this was an execution style murder by hitmen. This was one of a number of theories that was being discussed by the locals.
I'm not sure there is anything in it myself.
As far as the drug connections went around Tollesbury back then, from what I'm aware, it was never on the scale of operations that led to the shoot-up in Rettendon some years later.
I find myself visualising proceedings again, and as I do so, it seems a more likely scenario with Shelia at the trigger.
Two hitmen....Shelia in a state of wildness...or cool and calculated Jeremy? Or, a cool and calculated Jeremy accompanied by McDonald?
Second option ticks the most boxes still for me.
I can see why you would come to the conclusion that Sheila was the killer, it does make logical sense. I can't help but think otherwise, though. But of course, i could be wrong. Thanks for your input!
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Police find a den in a nearby copse, where someone had been sleeping rough, around the time of the shootings...
Here is yet another twist in the tale, of who might have been responsible, for killing the family...
and didnt the police also say mike that they saw a scruffy hunched up figure walking away from the back of whitehouse farm, while they were there. i cant understand why the police didnt stop and take him into custody for questioning at that point. or at least try and trace him later to ask why he was on the grounds at whf
Hmm, most interesting! Perhaps the idea of a third-party carrying out the shootings is not so far-fetched after all. I have been pondering this theory quite a lot lately (with reason, of course), and the more i think about it, the more it does add up (i am thinking specifically of one or more individuals when i say this.) It certainly IS possible. I know everything points to Sheila having committed the murders, but now i am convinced that "other persons" may have actually carried them out. If so, then the person(s) in question thought they had got away with the perfect crime.
If there was another person then I guess that person has got away with the perfect crime.
What could have been their motive?
I can think of one :-X The same motive that has been discussed in relation to something else. Sorry if i am being vague here; i would like to offer my theory but i am not sure how much you can say without getting into trouble, if you get my meaning? ;)
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Police find a den in a nearby copse, where someone had been sleeping rough, around the time of the shootings...
Here is yet another twist in the tale, of who might have been responsible, for killing the family...
and didnt the police also say mike that they saw a scruffy hunched up figure walking away from the back of whitehouse farm, while they were there. i cant understand why the police didnt stop and take him into custody for questioning at that point. or at least try and trace him later to ask why he was on the grounds at whf
Hmm, most interesting! Perhaps the idea of a third-party carrying out the shootings is not so far-fetched after all. I have been pondering this theory quite a lot lately (with reason, of course), and the more i think about it, the more it does add up (i am thinking specifically of one or more individuals when i say this.) It certainly IS possible. I know everything points to Sheila having committed the murders, but now i am convinced that "other persons" may have actually carried them out. If so, then the person(s) in question thought they had got away with the perfect crime.
If there was another person then I guess that person has got away with the perfect crime.
What could have been their motive?
I can think of one :-X The same motive that has been discussed in relation to something else. Sorry if i am being vague here; i would like to offer my theory, but i am not sure how much you can say without getting into trouble, if you get my meaning? ;)
I understand that. It should be remembered that many people associated with this case are still alive and the libel laws could apply.
Motives for murder usually include money, revenge, hatred, or the desire to stop someone spilling the beans about something.
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You're exactly right, Kaldin, on both counts. I could be way off track here with this "third-party" theory (though after reading a lot about this case, it all adds up in my mind). But the reason i bought it up was because, if i am correct, i would hate to see the person (or persons) responsible get away with such a heinous crime, just as much as seeing an innocent man incarcerated for a crime in which he didn't commit.
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Did the car belong to him, or had he borrowed/hired it?
What would be the significance of that?
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It's just that there's mention of this person on the topic 'The Dodgy HitchHiker'
Oh I see. Sorry I haven't read about that. Is the thread on here? I will go take a look. Thanks.
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It's just that there's mention of this person on the topic 'The Dodgy HitchHiker'
Oh I see. Sorry I haven't read about that. Is the thread on here? I will go take a look. Thanks.
It can be found here: http://jeremybamber.com/forum/index.php/topic,161.msg377.html#msg377
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Thanks Hartley
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Yes, it's quite possible someone other than his sister did it. But it certainly wasn't Jeremy. I'm certain of that.
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Yes, it's quite possible someone other than his sister did it. But it certainly wasn't Jeremy. I'm certain of that.
But there is no evidence to support a third party being involved.
What are you basing your stance that you are certain JB didn't carry out the murders? I agree that there are a number discrepancies in the case, but nothing which is concrete evidence proving his innocence.
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It's a gut feeling I have. And I'm pretty good at gut feelings.
Take the Joanne Yeates murder. When the landlord was arrested, I knew it wasn't him. Against probably 95% of the UK population.
People were saying ridiculous things like, 'you only have to look his [the landlord's] combover to see that he did it.' Or, 'he's a weirdo, he's never married.' Stupid comments like that.
I had the killer down as a man living very nearby, a next door neighbour. A strong man in his 30s. I have other reasons why I think the man on remand is the killer, but I won't go into that.
As regards Bamber, I have that gut feeling again. It would take a very unstable man (or woman) to cmmit those murders (she was unstable). And what would Jeremey gain? He isn't a stupid person, he would know the finger would point at him.
Did he really hate ALL HIS FAMILY???? I doubt it very much. It takes real hate, or a massive mental instability, to do those murders. I don't think he is capable of that.
Also, where is the real evidence against him?
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It's a gut feeling I have. And I'm pretty good at gut feelings.
Take the Joanne Yeates murder. When the landlord was arrested, I knew it wasn't him. Against probably 95% of the UK population.
People were saying ridiculous things like, 'you only have to look his [the landlord's] combover to see that he did it.' Or, 'he's a weirdo, he's never married.' Stupid comments like that.
I had the killer down as a man living very nearby, a next door neighbour. A strong man in his 30s. I have other reasons why I think the man on remand is the killer, but I won't go into that.
As regards Bamber, I have that gut feeling again. It would take a very unstable man (or woman) to cmmit those murders (she was unstable). And what would Jeremey gain? He isn't a stupid person, he would know the finger would point at him.
Did he really hate ALL HIS FAMILY???? I doubt it very much. It takes real hate, or a massive mental instability, to do those murders. I don't think he is capable of that.
Also, where is the real evidence against him?
Unfortunately a gut feeling doesn't hold up in court. The evidence presented in the '86 court trial was sufficient for a 10-2 Jury verdict. The quality of the evidence presented is another matter and obviously discussed at length in these and other forums, articles etc.
One thing which really sticks out to me is that it's generally accepeted that the police investigation was a bit of a mess (understatement), with errors and inconsistencies and incompetance amongst those involved.
The defence and pro-Bamber supporters are insisting that evidence was withheld, the police framed Bamber etc, etc. If the investigation was such a mess then I find it difficult to believe that the same people would then be capable of putting together a water tight false case against Bamber.
But my gut feeling doesn't hold up any better than yours does.
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Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EDp_tqUysI
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Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EDp_tqUysI
Yes I've seen it before, what about it? A cleverly edited and suggestive video.
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Yes, The druggies jeremy owed money too. The balforts saw there opportunity a full month after the murders, and NOT at the time. they never made a squeek for over a month
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The trouble with the 3rd party element is that Jeremy hasn't argued for that himself. His argument is that Sheila did it. There is no mention of any third party involvement on his website.
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If we are talking drugs here, then it might just be that Jeremy
cannot say anything about other things that were going on at the
farm around that time - maybe fearing for his own life if he were to.
Just a thought! :-\
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P.S in the late 70's and the 80's and probably even now
many people would have known the risk associated, if they
had any inside knowledge of something big, drug related and worth a lot
of money and prison time to powerful people, of saying anything at all.
Maybe the whole drug issue is just going off at a tangent - it's just that
Horseydave seemed to think that many people in the locality thought that
was exactly why the killings took place.
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Third Party. This subjest has started cropping up again in other posts that include issues like JB being able to commit this act alone, unique weapons, .22 cartridge displacement around whf and the shooting accuracy.
Another point I can't reconcile in my mind is why the shots appear more random in the main bedroom/kitchen and yet the twins (albeit they were possibly asleep) had such overkill shots and closely grouped head shots. If Sheila was berserk would she have not shot the children in a more random way, as opposed to a more execution style grouping.
I believe Mike has eluded to Shelia shooting the children once each from the initial 10 bullet magazine returning at a later stage to fire 6 more bullets into them - if they were already dead why do that?
I can't help but return to one shooter in the twins room, and another in the parents room, with SC being held at somepoint before she was killed?
I await your comments?
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Get a life you lot - You are all guilty of discrediting this site. NO 8mm/9mm bullets found. NO den found, and if you really do think that they all got together and planned the whole thing, read his fathers will.
I imagine that if i asked you all to describe JB you'd all have the idea that he was a "simple farmers son, he worked on the farm, toiled all day, joined in the village fete, attended church, oh what a charming boy" !!!!!!!!
WRONG WRONG WRONG
And IF he hadnt been locked up and he was out today, he wouldnt of given you the time of day - He was "above his station", he thought himself far too important to talk to the likes of us, he was a playboy, he drove around like a nutter, he took drugs, showed no respect for the farm as a working farm, and if, as did happen on more than one occasion when i was there, if it was his turn to check on the heifers, or drive the combine, one of us would always get a late night phonecall saying he was stuck in London (ie too busy partying to give a toss about the farm)
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Get a life you lot - You are all guilty of discrediting this site. NO 8mm/9mm bullets found. NO den found, and if you really do think that they all got together and planned the whole thing, read his fathers will.
I imagine that if i asked you all to describe JB you'd all have the idea that he was a "simple farmers son, he worked on the farm, toiled all day, joined in the village fete, attended church, oh what a charming boy" !!!!!!!!
WRONG WRONG WRONG
And IF he hadnt been locked up and he was out today, he wouldnt of given you the time of day - He was "above his station", he thought himself far too important to talk to the likes of us, he was a playboy, he drove around like a nutter, he took drugs, showed no respect for the farm as a working farm, and if, as did happen on more than one occasion when i was there, if it was his turn to check on the heifers, or drive the combine, one of us would always get a late night phonecall saying he was stuck in London (ie too busy partying to give a toss about the farm)
Your on here, so get a life too!
This is what these sites are for, general comments - practical, logical, emotional and fantastical .
I for one don't wish to meet JB or associate with him, but the case is intriguing.
Your rantings above don't follow the thread and don't answer any points
Maybe you could set up you own site?
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This all getting a bit silly, some of Mike posts are right up there with the work of Tolkien I agree, but I also think that he keeps putting in all this spin on purpose to get a few outspoken responses, tries to make you look silly and unreasonable, whilst all at the same time increasing his flock of sheep.
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So don't rise to it, it makes no difference to anything whether you do or don't.
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high hartley i like your posts, but when you mention gut feeling im afraid thats all i can go on at the moment, because evidence from both sides is not conclusive, but my gut feeling tells me he would have had to be a cross between richard burton, clint eastwood,and linford christie? in my book
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high hartley i like your posts, but when you mention gut feeling im afraid thats all i can go on at the moment, because evidence from both sides is not conclusive, but my gut feeling tells me he would have had to be a cross between richard burton, clint eastwood,and linford christie? in my book
I agree, but one could expect you to say you believe he is innocent, or you believe him to be guilty. Either way that's fine, there's two sides to every story.
What irks me just a tad is when somebody says things like 'hopefully he'll be out soon', 'I'm certain he's innocent' etc, etc.
There just isn't any evidence to be certain one way or the other. But that doesn't mean he deserves a retrial either in my view, not until there is evidence to warrant one.
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Very good post Hartley.
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Get a life you lot - You are all guilty of discrediting this site. NO 8mm/9mm bullets found. NO den found, and if you really do think that they all got together and planned the whole thing, read his fathers will.
I imagine that if i asked you all to describe JB you'd all have the idea that he was a "simple farmers son, he worked on the farm, toiled all day, joined in the village fete, attended church, oh what a charming boy" !!!!!!!!
WRONG WRONG WRONG
And IF he hadnt been locked up and he was out today, he wouldnt of given you the time of day - He was "above his station", he thought himself far too important to talk to the likes of us, he was a playboy, he drove around like a nutter, he took drugs, showed no respect for the farm as a working farm, and if, as did happen on more than one occasion when i was there, if it was his turn to check on the heifers, or drive the combine, one of us would always get a late night phonecall saying he was stuck in London (ie too busy partying to give a toss about the farm)
I don't know who you're addressing but I hope it's not me. ???
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Amanda. If I have offended you, I am sorry, but some of the posts the last 2 days have, in my opinion totally discredited the whole discussion - Its as if everyone wants to solve the crime, when in actual fact it is not that difficult to do.
The courts have dealt with the polices handling of the case on several occasions, so they (sic) are not now going to say that as well as the police, the courts were wrong too.
If one accepts that there really are only two options ie Jeremy or a person unknown, then JB's denial of a 3rd person is extremely dangerous for him, as if it is proven (resonable doubt etc) that his sister didnt do it, there is only one option left.
I personally feel the whole life sentence was a 'vote winner'/"conservatives tough on crime" etc, but you must understand that before such a judgement is made, the courts, the judges,the police and the family are all listened too - The home secretary would of consulted the DPP and asked if there was any chance he was innocent, however small - and that very point troubles me more than anything.
JB's whole defence and appeals have been based on "you find a reason Im guilty, and like a rabbit out of the hat, I'll find a scenerio that disproves that".
There was alot more going on than JB has ever mentioned, meet me, come to our village, talk to the people who lived there,worked there,drank in the pubs,bought his coke - These are not teenagers with a grudge, but now, 50,60 & 70 year old decent people, On there own, there is NOT one person within 20 miles of WHF who has a decent word to say for him, or bar one, the cowman & his wife, but thats not about JB, but about the light aroplane,the landing lights and there dis-like towards the Boutfours & Eatons.
For what its worth I believe he is GUILTY of being involved in the murder of his family, I DID NOT say guilty of the murder.
Its easy being clever after the event, but had JB admitted his guilt early on, he would of been released after 16 years, it was when that point passed the HS made it a whole life tariff.
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Well if another person did it, Jeremy could say hand on heart that he didn't kill his family and he would be telling the truth I suppose.
I just can't see him doing all that on his own. Perhaps it's just that I can't imagine anyone bashing their own father and shooting him face to face, and the same with their own mother. I can't imagine why Sheila just let someone shoot her either.
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For Horseydave,
I'm over in Colchester and possibly in touch with people you know, and I can pretty much see where you are coming from.
We might even know one another - do you know the Ponder's?
There are often references back to the airplane stuff from locals there - my ex sister in law for one.
Greetings from CO1.
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Well thank you for that as i have been ridiculed on here several times over the plane & lights - The police removed the lights, but i would bet the concrete plinths are still there.
Would youre ex sister in laws name begin with D ?
Maybe we should meet up soon and take a walk
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For Horseydave,
Her name begins with an R...RL now, was RP.
I saw her over Christmas - she lives quite close to the Boutflours now, who incidently, are planning to move abroad - I believe their farm at Wix is up for sale.
I have to admit, everyone from the area has a theory on things, and R is certainly no exception, she has always maintained, that whatever occured at WHF could have a connection to drugs in some way.
The area was known to me through local football - as I played against Heybridge Swifts, Maldon Town, Salcott and Tollesbury. Oh, and cricket too - there used to be a couple of quick bowlers at Tolleshunt D'arcy - Ken Farnsworth for one. I used to open the batting and he bowled me out first ball of the match once - on my walk back to the pavillion I got stung by a wasp - not the best of days.
Tollesbury and the surrounding area is a lovely part of Essex.
It would be very interesting to take a walk around the area one day.
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Get a life you lot - You are all guilty of discrediting this site. NO 8mm/9mm bullets found. NO den found, and if you really do think that they all got together and planned the whole thing, read his fathers will.
I imagine that if i asked you all to describe JB you'd all have the idea that he was a "simple farmers son, he worked on the farm, toiled all day, joined in the village fete, attended church, oh what a charming boy" !!!!!!!!
WRONG WRONG WRONG
And IF he hadnt been locked up and he was out today, he wouldnt of given you the time of day - He was "above his station", he thought himself far too important to talk to the likes of us, he was a playboy, he drove around like a nutter, he took drugs, showed no respect for the farm as a working farm, and if, as did happen on more than one occasion when i was there, if it was his turn to check on the heifers, or drive the combine, one of us would always get a late night phonecall saying he was stuck in London (ie too busy partying to give a toss about the farm)
I don't know who you're addressing but I hope it's not me. ???
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I have witness statements confirming that an 8mm bullet case was found in an outbuilding at the scene, also that police found a den in a small copse close to where campers were staying at the time of the shootings. Why would the police falsify evidence of this nature?
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Mike , Youre post earlier said "8mm Bullet found in farm outbuilding," !!!
you now say " a bullet case !!!
Quite a difference - and if you care to walk over any farm land, along headlands of any field you will find hundreds of cases, "Are all these startling new evidence"?
As I have said to you on more than one occasion, "what credibility do you expect if you post such chaff"
There is one point you seem to fail to grasp - Any appeal (IF granted,highly unlikely) will only look at evidence the earlier court had in front of it, You can come up with as many far fetched dreams as you want, it will not be looked at, and it annoys me that you feel you want to insult us by writing it.
The appeal court has been asked to look at certain points, they have done, and they have given a clear and precise indication to where and how they are thinking.
Even if someone who flew the plane, dropped the packages and collected the cash from Bury St Edmunds made a statement saying they murdered the family, the court would not listen as this is new evidence and not a concern of the appeal court.
The scratch 'evidence' does not hold up, Shelia going walk a bout doesnt hold up, I admit to holding great hope in the phone logs, but thats simply been dismissed, as the police will not "be seen as" admitting to further mistakes.
If you wish to debate it sensibly, I will with you, but please no more silly theories - lets just contain ourselves to the facts.
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Mike , Youre post earlier said "8mm Bullet found in farm outbuilding," !!!
you now say " a bullet case !!!
Quite a difference - and if you care to walk over any farm land, along headlands of any field you will find hundreds of cases, "Are all these startling new evidence"?
As I have said to you on more than one occasion, "what credibility do you expect if you post such chaff"
There is one point you seem to fail to grasp - Any appeal (IF granted,highly unlikely) will only look at evidence the earlier court had in front of it, You can come up with as many far fetched dreams as you want, it will not be looked at, and it annoys me that you feel you want to insult us by writing it.
The appeal court has been asked to look at certain points, they have done, and they have given a clear and precise indication to where and how they are thinking.
Even if someone who flew the plane, dropped the packages and collected the cash from Bury St Edmunds made a statement saying they murdered the family, the court would not listen as this is new evidence and not a concern of the appeal court.
The scratch 'evidence' does not hold up, Shelia going walk a bout doesnt hold up, I admit to holding great hope in the phone logs, but thats simply been dismissed, as the police will not "be seen as" admitting to further mistakes.
If you wish to debate it sensibly, I will with you, but please no more silly theories - lets just contain ourselves to the facts.
If the pilot's statement could be evidenced - the plane, the strip, fuel docket etc etc - then it would force a re-trial... But does JB want that?
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Mike , Youre post earlier said "8mm Bullet found in farm outbuilding," !!!
you now say " a bullet case !!!
Quite a difference - and if you care to walk over any farm land, along headlands of any field you will find hundreds of cases, "Are all these startling new evidence"?
As I have said to you on more than one occasion, "what credibility do you expect if you post such chaff"
There is one point you seem to fail to grasp - Any appeal (IF granted,highly unlikely) will only look at evidence the earlier court had in front of it, You can come up with as many far fetched dreams as you want, it will not be looked at, and it annoys me that you feel you want to insult us by writing it.
The appeal court has been asked to look at certain points, they have done, and they have given a clear and precise indication to where and how they are thinking.
Even if someone who flew the plane, dropped the packages and collected the cash from Bury St Edmunds made a statement saying they murdered the family, the court would not listen as this is new evidence and not a concern of the appeal court.
The scratch 'evidence' does not hold up, Shelia going walk a bout doesnt hold up, I admit to holding great hope in the phone logs, but thats simply been dismissed, as the police will not "be seen as" admitting to further mistakes.
If you wish to debate it sensibly, I will with you, but please no more silly theories - lets just contain ourselves to the facts.
I don't think that's right is it? The point of an appeal is precisely to consider new evidence - ie, things which were not available to the jury at the original trial.
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Yes, it's quite possible someone other than his sister did it. But it certainly wasn't Jeremy. I'm certain of that.
But there is no evidence to support a third party being involved.
What are you basing your stance that you are certain JB didn't carry out the murders? I agree that there are a number discrepancies in the case, but nothing which is concrete evidence proving his innocence.
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Mike , Youre post earlier said "8mm Bullet found in farm outbuilding," !!!
you now say " a bullet case !!!
Quite a difference - and if you care to walk over any farm land, along headlands of any field you will find hundreds of cases, "Are all these startling new evidence"?
As I have said to you on more than one occasion, "what credibility do you expect if you post such chaff"
There is one point you seem to fail to grasp - Any appeal (IF granted,highly unlikely) will only look at evidence the earlier court had in front of it, You can come up with as many far fetched dreams as you want, it will not be looked at, and it annoys me that you feel you want to insult us by writing it.
The appeal court has been asked to look at certain points, they have done, and they have given a clear and precise indication to where and how they are thinking.
Even if someone who flew the plane, dropped the packages and collected the cash from Bury St Edmunds made a statement saying they murdered the family, the court would not listen as this is new evidence and not a concern of the appeal court.
The scratch 'evidence' does not hold up, Shelia going walk a bout doesnt hold up, I admit to holding great hope in the phone logs, but thats simply been dismissed, as the police will not "be seen as" admitting to further mistakes.
If you wish to debate it sensibly, I will with you, but please no more silly theories - lets just contain ourselves to the facts.
-------------------------------
There is simply no need for any of us to insult each other...
If you think for one minute that I can't be as nasty as you appear to be, then my old friend you could be mistaken, but I choose not to be nasty, because I sense a frustration in some of your comments, which I can recognize, as simply being a desire to get to the truth...
Your goal is the same as mine...
We just have a different approach...
You can make all the accusations you like, but when appropriate I will reserve the right to respond by any way I choose...
Bullet, or bullet case, found in an outbuilding, was considered at one stage to be important enough to warrant further investigation...
My question would be, regarding the discovery of this bullet / bullet case, what type of weapon could fire such a bullet, and what size bullet entry wounds would such a bullet be capable of making if it was fired at close quarters, say within a couple of inches from its target, or even in a contact position?
Lets also get some thing clear before we go any further, because I own this site, and because I can if I go any further, that because I own this site I could simply ban you and we would not hear anything further from you unless you register under a different name, and if you did that I would still be able to tell that you had registered any new user name from the same IP address, but I have not decided to ban you, and I would not do so, because everyone is entitled to express their views here on this site, with a view to us all arriving at the inevitable truth...
You may not yet realize it, but your views are important, irrespective of whether or not you are in favor of Jeremy's guilt, or innocence...
So, I invite you to keep posting, you can say what you like, and if I can respond, I will do, if I can't I wont...
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Well said.
It would be a shame if Horseydave abandoned the forum completely as he is very good at giving a sense of place and time, and somewhere amongst that may be a key, if not the key.
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Is it possible that someone other than Jeremy or Sheila could be responsible for the murders that took place at White House Farm? Or is it certain that it can only be either one or the other? I think that there is another person who had motive for the killings, and could have possibly carried them out. I am not going to say that individual's name, obviously, and i am only speculating here. But to me, the person in question is highly suspicious, for a number of reasons.
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Relatively speaking, I think I can guess who you mean...
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Relatively speaking, i am sure you have guessed correct, Mike ;)
Anyway, as Jeremy has said in the letter to you that he does not want people discussing "new theories"/and or speculating without proof (as it may have an affect on the outcome of the CCRC's decision) i will not bring up or discuss this topic again. :-X
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Is it possible that someone other than Jeremy or Sheila could be responsible for the murders that took place at White House Farm? Or is it certain that it can only be either one or the other? I think that there is another person who had motive for the killings, and could have possibly carried them out. I am not going to say that individual's name, obviously, and i am only speculating here. But to me, the person in question is highly suspicious, for a number of reasons.
If Neville phoned Jeremy then Sheila did it. If Neville didn't phone Jeremy, then Jeremy did it, or he got someone else to do it. I deduce from that that it must have been either Sheila or Jeremy.
----------------------------------------
This is something that I started to look at in 2003, onwards...
I came to the conclusion, that it depended if Jeremy's recollection of what his father said when he called him, was accurate, or slightly, or significantly mis-interpreted?
"Sheila has got the gun"...
"She has got the gun"...
"He has got the gun"...
"Your sister has got the gun"...
Did Jeremy mis-hear what he was being told by Ralph, when Ralph made the call at about 3:25am?
"Sheila's" and , "She has", and "He has", sound phonetically the same...
If Jeremy made a genuine mistake, in this manner, as described, how would this reflect upon the case?
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if there is a posiibility of a third person being responsible, then yeah why not ;D.
Hmmmmm, this is most interesting. So if Jeremy had been killed too, who would profit from that?
If the aim was to get Jeremy to the house and set him up, who would profit from that? Several people I suppose, but to speculate could be libellous.
There is a sticking point in this theory though. If there was a third party and they wanted to get Jeremy over to the house for whatever reason, would they have made Neville say that Sheila had a gun? They couldn't know how Jeremy would react to that - I would think it would have made him too scared to go over on his own, and they couldn't discount the possibility of him calling the police. Would they not have come up with something which would be more likely to get him over there?
There's another issue with this:
From what we now know, there was a real struggle from Neville, and he was already shot at this point but continued to fight. IF he fought so hard with the killer at this point, it's hard to believe he'd be threatened into making a phone call at gunpoint. It doesn't disprove the 3rd party, but heart of hearts... I can't buy into it.
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If anyone has read my previous posts, they'll realise that I have only a tentative grasp of the tons of evidence out there, but I did join this forum with an open mind. To me, the original phone call is key. If it was Horsey's drug-based assassination, there would have been no phone call. If it was JB working on hiw own, he could have taken all night to stage the scene more carefully as 4 murders and a suicide, and left it all to be found the next morning by a member of staff. Again, no need for a phone call. But there WAS a recorded call to the police. So unless it was a genuine call from Ralph about Sheila, which I now doubt, could it have been a pre-planned, well-timed alibi to get the police to WHF before Jeremy could have been there in person? In my opinion..............
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Could Someone other than Jeremy or Sheila have comitted the murders at WHF?
In my opinion and for the following reasons...... NO
Information in Police Telephone logs referencing Sheila with a gun. i.e. (i) Jeremy's telephone call to the Police (ii) Nevill's alledged telephone call to the Police (iii) Nevill's alledged telephone call to Jeremy
The court did not beleive a third party was involved. The Police did not beleive a third party was involved. Jeremy does not beleive a third party was involved. Jeremy has made a number of statements referring to Sheila being the killer. If I am not mistake, there have been details published in the media where Jeremy expresses regrets in not understanding Sheila's illness well enough at the time and not being able to do anything to help her.
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Could Someone other than Jeremy or Sheila have comitted the murders at WHF?
In my opinion and for the following reasons...... NO
Information in Police Telephone logs referencing Sheila with a gun. i.e. (i) Jeremy's telephone call to the Police (ii) Nevill's alledged telephone call to the Police (iii) Nevill's alledged telephone call to Jeremy
The court did not beleive a third party was involved. The Police did not beleive a third party was involved. Jeremy does not beleive a third party was involved. Jeremy has made a number of statements referring to Sheila being the killer. If I am not mistake, there have been details published in the media where Jeremy expresses regrets in not understanding Sheila's illness well enough at the time and not being able to do anything to help her.
---------------------------------
Good points...
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well assuming Sheila didn't do it and assuming jermy didn't do it.
whoever did do it put the gun in sheilas hand to frame her meaning they knew about her illness.
so it must have been somebody who knew a fair bit about the family.
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What if one of the other relatives committed the murders?
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What if one of the other relatives committed the murders?
Mike do you realise what you are saying? Be careful!
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What if one of the other relatives committed the murders?
Really? :o :o :o
Wheres those men in white coats when you need them, ha ha hee hee ho ho, off to the funny farm we go. ::) ::) ::)
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What if one of the other relatives committed the murders?
To gain what Mike? The inheritance? Then they would need Jeremy out of the equation,so surely they would have set him up from the beginning instead of setting it up to make it look like Sheila was responsible.
You are an intelligent guy Mike, you know only Sheila or Jeremy could have been responsible.
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What if one of the other relatives committed the murders?
Mike do you realise what you are saying? Be careful!
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I'll put it another way then, what if somebody who was not a relative did not commit the murders?
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What if one of the other relatives committed the murders?
Mike do you realise what you are saying? Be careful!
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I'll put it another way then, what if somebody who was not a relative did not commit the murders?
You've got a double negative in there. ;D
Do you mean - what if someone unrelated to Jeremy did not commit the murders?
In other words, do you mean - what if someone related to Jeremy committed the murders?
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What if one of the other relatives committed the murders?
Mike do you realise what you are saying? Be careful!
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I'll put it another way then, what if somebody who was not a relative did not commit the murders?
You've got a double negative in there. ;D
Do you mean - what if someone unrelated to Jeremy did not commit the murders?
In other words, do you mean - what if someone related to Jeremy committed the murders?
--------------------
Precisely...
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What if one of the other relatives committed the murders?
Mike do you realise what you are saying? Be careful!
---------------------
I'll put it another way then, what if somebody who was not a relative did not commit the murders?
You've got a double negative in there. ;D
Do you mean - what if someone unrelated to Jeremy did not commit the murders?
In other words, do you mean - what if someone related to Jeremy committed the murders?
--------------------
Precisely...
[/color]
Mike - How does what you are suggesting tie in with the telephone call from Nevill to Jeremy?
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What if one of the other relatives committed the murders?
Mike do you realise what you are saying? Be careful!
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I'll put it another way then, what if somebody who was not a relative did not commit the murders?
You've got a double negative in there. ;D
Do you mean - what if someone unrelated to Jeremy did not commit the murders?
In other words, do you mean - what if someone related to Jeremy committed the murders?
--------------------
Precisely...
[/color]
Mike - How does what you are suggesting tie in with the telephone call from Nevill to Jeremy?
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Well, it seems to me that everything which is being alleged that JB could have done / did, could have been carried out by another party...
Sticking point is the phone call from Ralph to Jeremy, and what was actually said?
According to Jeremy, he did not tell the police that his father said "Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy", Jeremy told COLP in 1991, that his father actually said either "She has got the gun" or "he has got the gun" - this was one of his complaints which COLP investigated as part pf their 1991 investigation...
If Ralph said "She has got the gun" or "He has got the gun" it makes a big difference, not only to the prosecution case, but also to the defense...
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What if one of the other relatives committed the murders?
Mike do you realise what you are saying? Be careful!
---------------------
I'll put it another way then, what if somebody who was not a relative did not commit the murders?
You've got a double negative in there. ;D
Do you mean - what if someone unrelated to Jeremy did not commit the murders?
In other words, do you mean - what if someone related to Jeremy committed the murders?
--------------------
Precisely...
That's pretty much what you said before, except you appear to be talking about a random relative now rather than one of the relatives who were involved.
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What if one of the other relatives committed the murders?
Mike do you realise what you are saying? Be careful!
---------------------
I'll put it another way then, what if somebody who was not a relative did not commit the murders?
You've got a double negative in there. ;D
Do you mean - what if someone unrelated to Jeremy did not commit the murders?
In other words, do you mean - what if someone related to Jeremy committed the murders?
--------------------
Precisely...
[/color]
Mike - How does what you are suggesting tie in with the telephone call from Nevill to Jeremy?
-----------------
Well, it seems to me that everything which is being alleged that JB could have done / did, could have been carried out by another party...
Sticking point is the phone call from Ralph to Jeremy, and what was actually said?
According to Jeremy, he did not tell the police that his father said "Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy", Jeremy told COLP in 1991, that his father actually said either "She has got the gun" or "he has got the gun" - this was one of his complaints which COLP investigated as part pf their 1991 investigation...
If Ralph said "She has got the gun" or He has got the gun" it makes a big difference, not only to the prosecution case, but also to the defense...
I understand the point you are making now. It is a possible scenario, but it goes against the basis of Jeremy's arguments at and since his trial, that Sheila was responsible for the five deaths. Is there new evidence that supports the alternative scenario which you are suggesting now? I see from Jeremy's "official" website that he is still advancing the case that Sheila was responsible.
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apart from jermy who else would have benefited from the bamber family being dead
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apart from jermy who else would have benefited from the bamber family being dead
There are several who could have benefitted financially, but only if Jeremy was dead too (or convicted of murder and therefore disinherited).
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apart from jermy who else would have benefited from the bamber family being dead
There are several who could have benefitted financially, but only if Jeremy was dead too (or convicted of murder and therefore disinherited).
I believe that is the most relevant alternative here. It is difficult (although I accept not impossible) to visualise the scenario of a family member comitting or arranging five murders for financial gain, but less difficult to envisage the "improving" of a case against Jeremy after the killings, in order to provide a better chance of ensuring his conviction for murder. It would be similar to what the police used to call "noble cause corruption", i.e. falsifying evidence to enhance the chance of convicting someone they "knew" to be guilty.
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apart from jermy who else would have benefited from the bamber family being dead
There are several who could have benefitted financially, but only if Jeremy was dead too (or convicted of murder and therefore disinherited).
I believe that is the most relevant alternative here. It is difficult (although I accept not impossible) to visualise the scenario of a family member comitting or arranging five murders for financial gain, but less difficult to envisage the "improving" of a case against Jeremy after the killings, in order to provide a better chance of ensuring his conviction for murder. It would be similar to what the police used to call "noble cause corruption", i.e. falsifying evidence to enhance the chance of convicting someone they "knew" to be guilty.
It would also be difficult for anyone to guarantee that they would get the inheritance as well, so it's all a bit of a long shot.
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apart from jermy who else would have benefited from the bamber family being dead
There are several who could have benefitted financially, but only if Jeremy was dead too (or convicted of murder and therefore disinherited).
I believe that is the most relevant alternative here. It is difficult (although I accept not impossible) to visualise the scenario of a family member comitting or arranging five murders for financial gain, but less difficult to envisage the "improving" of a case against Jeremy after the killings, in order to provide a better chance of ensuring his conviction for murder. It would be similar to what the police used to call "noble cause corruption", i.e. falsifying evidence to enhance the chance of convicting someone they "knew" to be guilty.
It would also be difficult for anyone to guarantee that they would get the inheritance as well, so it's all a bit of a long shot.
That is a very fair point. However, even leaving aside the inheritance motive, it is possible to see how a relative convinced of JB's guilt but unable to persuade the police to share that view might be tempted to influence their view by "finding" some critical and very damaging evidence. I am not saying that I believe that is what happened, but it is a plausible scenario in my view.
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apart from jermy who else would have benefited from the bamber family being dead
There are several who could have benefitted financially, but only if Jeremy was dead too (or convicted of murder and therefore disinherited).
I believe that is the most relevant alternative here. It is difficult (although I accept not impossible) to visualise the scenario of a family member comitting or arranging five murders for financial gain, but less difficult to envisage the "improving" of a case against Jeremy after the killings, in order to provide a better chance of ensuring his conviction for murder. It would be similar to what the police used to call "noble cause corruption", i.e. falsifying evidence to enhance the chance of convicting someone they "knew" to be guilty.
---------- I prefer to rely upon the suggestion, of "who" they suspected of being guilty, rather than who they knew to be guilty...
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apart from jermy who else would have benefited from the bamber family being dead
Thkneere are several who could have benefitted financially, but only if Jeremy was dead too (or convicted of murder and therefore disinherited).
I believe that is the most relevant alternative here. It is difficult (although I accept not impossible) to visualise the scenario of a family member comitting or arranging five murders for financial gain, but less difficult to envisage the "improving" of a case against Jeremy after the killings, in order to provide a better chance of ensuring his conviction for murder. It would be similar to what the police used to call "noble cause corruption", i.e. falsifying evidence to enhance the chance of convicting someone they "knew" to be guilty.
---------- I prefer to rely upon the suggestion, of "who" they suspected of being guilty, rather than who they knew to be guilty...
Mike - I am sorry if I did not make myself clear. By putting "knew" in parentheses I intended to convey that the person believed in Jeremy's guilt and therefore convinced himself that he knew that Jeremy was guilty. In that way the person "finding" the evidence would not feel any guilt about his actions, even though those actions amounted to perverting the course of justice. "Noble cause corruption" was rife in the police in the 1970s and 1980s and because those concerned believed in what they were doing their colleagues took a much more relaxed view than they would have in the case of a blatant "fit up" of an innocent person. The problem is that the police often got it wrong, which is why there were attempts, partly successful, by Metropolitan Police Commissioners to change the culture of tolerance towards "noble cause corruption" within the police.
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Mike, you have totally lost me here. I really do try hard to keep up, with varying degrees of success, but now you seem to be throwing someone else into the mix. You are being too subtle for me. For my sake, as a bit of a thicky, could you please be clearer? Who do you mean? And why?
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Mike, you have totally lost me here. I really do try hard to keep up, with varying degrees of success, but now you seem to be throwing someone else into the mix. You are being too subtle for me. For my sake, as a bit of a thicky, could you please be clearer? Who do you mean? And why?
-------------------
All I am saying is that all the features in this case, which have been directed at trying to portray JB as being the guilty party, could be applied to any of the others who stood to benefit from the inheritance, all the features except the phone call that JB received from his father, and of course the evidence as alluded to by Julie Mugford. I mean, the silencer evidence with the blood and paint found upon or inside it, if it was genuinely found at the scene, as described, could have been used by anybody on the gun at the time of the shootings, and anybody could have unscrewed it and hid it in the gun cupboard at the scene, and left the scene thereafter at some stage?
One thing seems rather odd to me, and that is that when Ralph called JB and summoned him to come to the scene, at what stage did Ralph's body end up sat on that chair behind the internal kitchen door? Because within 45 minutes or so, between Ralph making the call to JB, the police had arrived at the scene, and entry to the kitchen would not have been possible to anyone going into whf through the back external kitchen side door, because the kitchen would have been effectively blocked off, as the firearms team found out later when they forced their way into the farmhouse and they were delayed for several minutes before they could get into the kitchen - because they had to topple Ralph from the chair his body was sat upon behind the internal door?
How did JB know that the police would not go directly to the house upon arriving there and find Ralph blocking off entry into the kitchen?
If it was dark when the police and JB arrived at the scene, and the kitchen light was switched on, why didn't the police look into the kitchen at that stage under the cover of darkness?
I can't believe that no-one bothered to look into the kitchen window with its light switched on, and why no-one saw a body there, or two bodies there, before about 7:30am...
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I sugested yonks ago about a third party. As I recall Mick was saying alive, alive o. Can,t have it both ways.
Now we have another calbre of bullet. so does Mike still think it was Shiela, or a third party.
Was it one of the family, no. They were a conspiring bunch who were convinced that JB had done the deed, and went about to prove it
If any right minded person had found found a silencer with blood and hair on it they would have handled it very carefully. They would not have used a razor to remove evidence, why would they.
Boutflours made a great ammount from JBs imprisonment.
If you are there again Kaldin, I surrender again.
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I sugested yonks ago about a third party. As I recall Mick was saying alive, alive o. Can,t have it both ways.
Now we have another calbre of bullet. so does Mike still think it was Shiela, or a third party.
Was it one of the family, no. They were a conspiring bunch who were convinced that JB had done the deed, and went about to prove it
If any right minded person had found found a silencer with blood and hair on it they would have handled it very carefully. They would not have used a razor to remove evidence, why would they.
Boutflours made a great ammount from JBs imprisonment.
If you are there again Kaldin, I surrender again.
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We have looked into the possibility that there was some third party involvement in these killings, and it seems to me that most of the evidence that can be associated with the ballistics and the blood / paint found upon / inside the silencer could be applied to another party. But the phone call which Ralph Made to JB cannot be, and neither can the evidence of Julie Mugford, although she did at one stage try to implicate a local hit man in the murders...
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What was Matthew McDonald's alibi? Does anyone know?
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Blimey O'Reilly, Mike. Here's a straw. Have a good clutch. I'm guessing that the rest of the family, possibly even the dog, had alibis for that night. This isn't Cluedo. And haven't you always said that at least one copper DID look through the kitchen window? You've always gone into great detail about the angle that couldn't have been looked around. You're confusing me, Mike. Too much.
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Is everyone sure that it was Ralph who made the phone call. Could have been anyone.
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Is everyone sure that it was Ralph who made the phone call. Could have been anyone.
Jeremy seemed sure it was Nevill.
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Is he still so sure. A voice on the phone can sound different.
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What phone call from Ralph? The one he would have made while he was following a deranged, armed Sheila around the farmhouse while she was killing his wife and grandchildren, or the one he made with a smashed jaw? I'm sorry to be so brutal, but how could Ralph have ever made this call? Especially to the seemingly feckless Jeremy, when he should have been calling 999 for police and an ambulance?
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What was Matthew McDonald's alibi? Does anyone know?
He had spent the night with a girlfriend allegedly.
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We don,t know if he had a smashed jaw at the time of the call.
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Wasn't it JM who named Matthew McDonald? Perhaps she named the wrong guy. Perhaps JB found someone else, and didn't tell her.
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Is he still so sure. A voice on the phone can sound different.
Not sure how people in general recognize voices, but I can say that I recognize voices over the telephone - even people I haven´t spoken with in years and certainly family members!
I think that people can recognize voices easily.
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Wasn't it JM who named Matthew McDonald? Perhaps she named the wrong guy. Perhaps JB found someone else, and didn't tell her.
Sorry for not replying in the other thread, here is as good a place as any to respond to your comment pugsy. I do think it was a third party that did this and my point in the other thread was that i don't think this was some highly professional hitman but a clown / opportunist. Whether Jeremy/Sheila/Third party did it, it was a fiasco.
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Wasn't it JM who named Matthew McDonald? Perhaps she named the wrong guy. Perhaps JB found someone else, and didn't tell her.
How do you find hitmen?? They don´t put ads out... Finding one, OK, but another one, I don´t know!
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I considered a third party scenario for a long time,but it always comes back to the phonecall doesnt it?
I was highly suspicious of the timing of the murders (granny Speakman on her death bed)! The Bamber family would become even more wealthy than they already were. And the fact that certain people were absolutely adamant that Sheila could not have been responsible even though they barely knew her.And the morning after the murders,when it seemed clear that the police were regarding the situation as 4 murders and a suicide,these certain persons immediately started their smear campaign.I must admit,it was all very suspicious in my opinion.
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Hi, Si. 3..2..1.... you're back in the room! I have never thought that some super-dupe mercenary was involved, it could just have been some plonker in the pub or a druggie pal with no scruples and a need for a lump of cash. They only had to know the lay-out of the house and find some strategically-placed guns........
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leaving aside the inheritance for minute what about the bamber family's business dealings could that have given someone a reason to want them dead.
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I'm not so sure, nugnug, you little tinker. Who are you really?
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I am also leaning towards this scenario, did Jeremy and the hit man act together - I think Ralph and Sheila barricaded themselves in the kitchen to protect themselves from the killers who left them both for dead before leaving. Sheila may well have been still alive when the Police entered, how she ended up in the bedroom is a mystery though.
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I have previously mentioned this "hunched figure". I'm convinced there was a third person. Neville was once an intellegence officer, maybe someone was out for revenge! It could be that Neville didn't see who was "going berzerk with the gun" he just assumed that it was Shiela.
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It all hinges uopn Jeremy's word that his father telephoned him. If we believe this to be true then this in itself rules out a "hitman". To my mind I have considered this at depth and thought it extremely unlikely.
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It all hinges uopn Jeremy's word that his father telephoned him. If we believe this to be true then this in itself rules out a "hitman". To my mind I have considered this at depth and thought it extremely unlikely.
Not quite, Grahame.
What 'if', a hitman where involved (not for a minute do I believe Jeremy hired him), but what if....and the hitman wanted JB dead too.
He needed Jeremy to come over, so got his father to phone him. Now, 'what if'....the father's first call was to the Police. Eg: The hitman has told Neville to phone Jeremy, Neville picks up the phone and start to dial. During this Neville has a gun to his head/neck, which is where we get the marks from on Nevilles' neck. The hitman thinks Neville is phoning Jeremy, however, the phone numbers are so similar, that Neville is in fact, phoning the POLICE...NOT Jeremy. This also answers the question as to why Neville never called 999.
After a beating...Neville then phones Jeremy.
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It all hinges uopn Jeremy's word that his father telephoned him. If we believe this to be true then this in itself rules out a "hitman". To my mind I have considered this at depth and thought it extremely unlikely.
Not quite, Grahame.
What 'if', a hitman where involved (not for a minute do I believe Jeremy hired him), but what if....and the hitman wanted JB dead too.
He needed Jeremy to come over, so got his father to phone him. Now, 'what if'....the father's first call was to the Police. Eg: The hitman has told Neville to phone Jeremy, Neville picks up the phone and start to dial. During this Neville has a gun to his head/neck, which is where we get the marks from on Nevilles' neck. The hitman thinks Neville is phoning Jeremy, however, the phone numbers are so similar, that Neville is in fact, phoning the POLICE...NOT Jeremy. This also answers the question as to why Neville never called 999.
After a beating...Neville then phones Jeremy.
Yes I've also been thinking along these lines as well. See my post in this link:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1127.msg34718.html#msg34718
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It all hinges uopn Jeremy's word that his father telephoned him. If we believe this to be true then this in itself rules out a "hitman". To my mind I have considered this at depth and thought it extremely unlikely.
Not quite, Grahame.
What 'if', a hitman where involved (not for a minute do I believe Jeremy hired him), but what if....and the hitman wanted JB dead too.
He needed Jeremy to come over, so got his father to phone him. Now, 'what if'....the father's first call was to the Police. Eg: The hitman has told Neville to phone Jeremy, Neville picks up the phone and start to dial. During this Neville has a gun to his head/neck, which is where we get the marks from on Nevilles' neck. The hitman thinks Neville is phoning Jeremy, however, the phone numbers are so similar, that Neville is in fact, phoning the POLICE...NOT Jeremy. This also answers the question as to why Neville never called 999.
After a beating...Neville then phones Jeremy.
Clever and interesting scenario. Not a very pleasant one. There's something horrific about the concept that the killings are premeditiated by a third party, as opposed to frenzied psychotic rage on the part of Sheila. We are getting in to Law1 territory here.
p.s. Is law1 the alter ego of jailman?
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this farmhouse is very large, so perhaps a third suspect could have been still in there when the EP broke in. I'm not suggesting Priest Holes!, but did the EP search every corner?
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It all hinges uopn Jeremy's word that his father telephoned him. If we believe this to be true then this in itself rules out a "hitman". To my mind I have considered this at depth and thought it extremely unlikely.
Not quite, Grahame.
What 'if', a hitman where involved (not for a minute do I believe Jeremy hired him), but what if....and the hitman wanted JB dead too.
He needed Jeremy to come over, so got his father to phone him. Now, 'what if'....the father's first call was to the Police. Eg: The hitman has told Neville to phone Jeremy, Neville picks up the phone and start to dial. During this Neville has a gun to his head/neck, which is where we get the marks from on Nevilles' neck. The hitman thinks Neville is phoning Jeremy, however, the phone numbers are so similar, that Neville is in fact, phoning the POLICE...NOT Jeremy. This also answers the question as to why Neville never called 999.
After a beating...Neville then phones Jeremy.
Clever and interesting scenario. Not a very pleasant one. There's something horrific about the concept that the killings are premeditiated by a third party, as opposed to frenzied psychotic rage on the part of Sheila. We are getting in to Law1 territory here.
p.s. Is law1 the alter ego of jailman?
Sorry Grahame, missed that.
Then we ask, well, how did Sheila get from downstairs to upstairs...for we know for certain she was still alive.
Imagine, things from Sheila's point of view. Girl with severe mental illness who has, in the past, spoken of wanting to kill herself and her own sons etc. Suddenly, she comes round after the first shot, and takes everything in that she is the sole surviver in a family massacre. After all she has endured at the hands of this killer, her whole family destroyed she would be in a complete state of panic and fear and utter bewilderment.
She realises the police are also in the house. She has seconds to take this all in......'what is she going to do? Who is going to believe her that she is innocent? Also, everyone else is dead....what has she to live for?'
Her mind caves in, the medication she is on only adds to her irrational thinking.
She faces the rest of her life being locked up in a mental asylum or prison and is branded as a child killer.
How many options has she?
I think Sheila took what she thought was the best option at the time.......she saw no future and took her own life.
Those actions then resulted in a Police cover up.........
This scenario would leave both Jeremy and Sheila innocent of all charges and victims.
I have never liked the idea of people branding Sheila a 'nutter' or portraying her as a 'murderer'. What if, along with Neville, she did all she could to protect her family.......and lost her own life in the end.
I apologise in advance if somebody else has already posted such an idea......the forum is so big one cannot read all of it in such a short space of time. ;)
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In my opinion a third party would be inconsistant with Jeremy's original witness statements given on 7th and 8th August 1985.
Additionally
(i) Nevill clearly put up a fight for his life
(ii) Nevill is placed by both Jeremy's witness statement and Jeremy's call to the police in the kitchen using the telephone.
(iii) It has been detailed the medical reports determined Nevill could not have spoken with the sustained facial injuries / broken jaw.
(iv) Nevill, according to Jeremy's witness statement details 'Sheila' with a/ the gun.
(v) Jeremy's telephone call to the police reports Sheila with the gun.
(vi) IF Nevill rang the police, according to the claims of the defence, Nevill would be detailing Sheila with a gun.
(vii) If Nevill is in the kitchen before sustaining any injuries he would have easy access to numerous objects to defend himself, possibly even other guns located in White House Farm together with easy aces to ammunition that is spread out over the sideboard by the telephone which he has allegedly been using.
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In my opinion a third party would be inconsistant with Jeremy's original witness statements given on 7th and 8th August 1985.
Additionally
(i) Nevill clearly put up a fight for his life
(ii) Nevill is placed by both Jeremy's witness statement and Jeremy's call to the police in the kitchen using the telephone.
(iii) It has been detailed the medical reports determined Nevill could not have spoken with the sustained facial injuries / broken jaw.
(iv) Nevill, according to Jeremy's witness statement details 'Sheila' with a/ the gun.
(v) Jeremy's telephone call to the police reports Sheila with the gun.
(vi) IF Nevill rang the police, according to the claims of the defence, Nevill would be detailing Sheila with a gun.
(vii) If Nevill is in the kitchen before sustaining any injuries he would have easy access to numerous objects to defend himself, possibly even other guns located in White House Farm together with easy aces to ammunition that is spread out over the sideboard by the telephone which he has allegedly been using.
I agree with you curious,
I thought for a long time a third party was involved, but I was trying to take jeremy out of the frame.
I think the original thought that Sheila was the shooter are correct.
I have for the past couple of days been looking at the statements the family made.
The inconsistantcies from all are mind boggling.
For instance Ann said she unloaded the guns from WHF, and put them in a safe place,
DB said he unloaded the guns, and left them with Ann, and did not know what happened to them.
This is the same DB that was concerned about marks on the silencer.
This silencer was handed over to Jones by Peter Eaton.
Ann said she opened the cupboard in the den and took out a shotgun.
David said HE opened the cupboard, and went on to explain what he found.
The moderator that was supposidly found and taken to Anns house had a grey hair on it.
The moderator was put in a plastic bag that Ann was standing on. Pretty good chance that it had hair on it then.
In Anns statements she mentions that Jones spent some time at her house drinking whiskey.
Later on she says that a number of officers drank a bottle of Whiskey between themselves, but were not drunk when they left.
This is unhealthy in regards to the closeness to the family.
Bear in mind that Ann said to JB that WHF would be his and Julies soon, and JB replied that they preferred Vaulty farm. Alarm bells ringing.
To my mind Stan Jones was corrupt, and if if was'nt for the demise of Taff Jones Jeremy would not have been convicted. Still trawling.
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there were certanly others who had a motive to do it.
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the police and the family were too close, did they recieve gifts from the family after jbs conviction?
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In my opinion a third party would be inconsistant with Jeremy's original witness statements given on 7th and 8th August 1985.
Additionally
(i) Nevill clearly put up a fight for his life
(ii) Nevill is placed by both Jeremy's witness statement and Jeremy's call to the police in the kitchen using the telephone.
(iii) It has been detailed the medical reports determined Nevill could not have spoken with the sustained facial injuries / broken jaw.
The call could have been made "before" he received those injuries. Why do people assume that he could never have spoken because of his facial injuries. The would obviously be a sequence of events which would not be the sequence that we ourselves may think?
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In my opinion a third party would be inconsistant with Jeremy's original witness statements given on 7th and 8th August 1985.
Additionally
(i) Nevill clearly put up a fight for his life
(ii) Nevill is placed by both Jeremy's witness statement and Jeremy's call to the police in the kitchen using the telephone.
(iii) It has been detailed the medical reports determined Nevill could not have spoken with the sustained facial injuries / broken jaw.
(iv) Nevill, according to Jeremy's witness statement details 'Sheila' with a/ the gun.
(v) Jeremy's telephone call to the police reports Sheila with the gun.
(vi) IF Nevill rang the police, according to the claims of the defence, Nevill would be detailing Sheila with a gun.
(vii) If Nevill is in the kitchen before sustaining any injuries he would have easy access to numerous objects to defend himself, possibly even other guns located in White House Farm together with easy aces to ammunition that is spread out over the sideboard by the telephone which he has allegedly been using.
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Jeremy never told the police that Ralph made the call to him, from the kitchen - everyone just assumes the call had to be made from the kitchen, but there is no direct evidence that it was made from there. It could just so easily have been made from the telephone in the upstairs office? Imagine if Ralph did make the call from upstairs, rather than downstairs, then of course Ralph could not have been wounded at the time he made the call to Jeremy because no blood at all was found anywhere inside the upstairs office or near the office telephone...
How come non of the police officers or SOC make much if any reference at all to the upstairs office or the telephone which was plugged in there at the material time?
Something fishy going on here, I am afraid...
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In my opinion a third party would be inconsistant with Jeremy's original witness statements given on 7th and 8th August 1985.
Additionally
(i) Nevill clearly put up a fight for his life
(ii) Nevill is placed by both Jeremy's witness statement and Jeremy's call to the police in the kitchen using the telephone.
(iii) It has been detailed the medical reports determined Nevill could not have spoken with the sustained facial injuries / broken jaw.
(iv) Nevill, according to Jeremy's witness statement details 'Sheila' with a/ the gun.
(v) Jeremy's telephone call to the police reports Sheila with the gun.
(vi) IF Nevill rang the police, according to the claims of the defence, Nevill would be detailing Sheila with a gun.
(vii) If Nevill is in the kitchen before sustaining any injuries he would have easy access to numerous objects to defend himself, possibly even other guns located in White House Farm together with easy aces to ammunition that is spread out over the sideboard by the telephone which he has allegedly been using.
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Jeremy never told the police that Ralph made the call to him, from the kitchen - everyone just assumes the call had to be made from the kitchen, but there is no direct evidence that it was made from there. It could just so easily have been made from the telephone in the upstairs office? Imagine if Ralph did make the call from upstairs, rather than downstairs, then of course Ralph could not have been wounded at the time he made the call to Jeremy because no blood at all was found anywhere inside the upstairs office or near the office telephone...
How come non of the police officers or SOC make much if any reference at all to the upstairs office or the telephone which was plugged in there at the material time?
Something fishy going on here, I am afraid...
In reply............ How come Nevill did not make the alleged telephone call from the telephone in the bedroom? (I expect you will say because telephone that was normally in the bedroom was plugged in downstairs in the kitchen)
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Curiousessex,there is a statement on the forum,(from the man who collected the cordless phone from whf in order to repair) that witnessed the cream dial telephone in situ in the kitchen prior to the murders.
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In my opinion a third party would be inconsistant with Jeremy's original witness statements given on 7th and 8th August 1985.
Additionally
(i) Nevill clearly put up a fight for his life
(ii) Nevill is placed by both Jeremy's witness statement and Jeremy's call to the police in the kitchen using the telephone.
(iii) It has been detailed the medical reports determined Nevill could not have spoken with the sustained facial injuries / broken jaw.
(iv) Nevill, according to Jeremy's witness statement details 'Sheila' with a/ the gun.
(v) Jeremy's telephone call to the police reports Sheila with the gun.
(vi) IF Nevill rang the police, according to the claims of the defence, Nevill would be detailing Sheila with a gun.
(vii) If Nevill is in the kitchen before sustaining any injuries he would have easy access to numerous objects to defend himself, possibly even other guns located in White House Farm together with easy aces to ammunition that is spread out over the sideboard by the telephone which he has allegedly been using.
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Good points, Mike! Another +1
Jeremy never told the police that Ralph made the call to him, from the kitchen - everyone just assumes the call had to be made from the kitchen, but there is no direct evidence that it was made from there. It could just so easily have been made from the telephone in the upstairs office? Imagine if Ralph did make the call from upstairs, rather than downstairs, then of course Ralph could not have been wounded at the time he made the call to Jeremy because no blood at all was found anywhere inside the upstairs office or near the office telephone...
How come non of the police officers or SOC make much if any reference at all to the upstairs office or the telephone which was plugged in there at the material time?
Something fishy going on here, I am afraid...
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Curiousessex,there is a statement on the forum,(from the man who collected the cordless phone from whf in order to repair) that witnessed the cream dial telephone in situ in the kitchen prior to the murders.
Tyler
In my opinion, if Nevill had it in his mind to make a telephone call whilst getting out of bed his normal reaction would be to use the telephone that was normally in the bedroom. Upon realising / remembering the telephone had been moved downstairs it is most likely he would go downstairs to try and use the very same telephone having remembered where the telephone was located.
As Mike pointed out there is no hard evidence, in any event, to detail which telephone Nevill used to make the alleged telephone calls. However, it is the case Jeremy informed the police that he had tried to call Nevill back immediately, a couple of times and all he got was the engaged tone. The police following Jeremy's call confirmed via the GPO that a telephone was off the hook.
When everything unfolded there was indeed a telephone that was 'off the hook' and it was the telephone in the kitchen beside which there was also a box of ammunition with spilled bullets which are accurately detailed in Jeremy's original witness statements.
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In addition to which, the door between the upstairs office and the main house was locked, so unless Ralph managed to lock it after he'd finished, the only access to the upstairs office was to go downstairs, through the kitchen, into the lobby near the back yard door and back upstairs using those stairs.
It would be unlikely in my opinion that he would walk past the phone in the kitchen to use the upstairs office phone.
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Curious,I wasnt disagreeing with you,think I may have just got confused at what you was trying to say.
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Curious,I wasnt disagreeing with you,think I may have just got confused at what you was trying to say.
Sorry to be confusing. I was predicting Mike's response and then providing answers to the predicted response.