Jeremy Bamber Forum

JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: nugnug on November 30, 2011, 04:42:PM

Title: could this have happened.
Post by: nugnug on November 30, 2011, 04:42:PM
could a 3rd party have got in the house killed all the family and got out again while jermy bamber and the police without any of them noticing seems unlikely on the face of it but is it impossible.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: ngb1066 on November 30, 2011, 04:50:PM
could a 3rd party have got in the house killed all the family and got out again while jermy bamber and the police without any of them noticing seems unlikely on the face of it but is it impossible.

It is not impossible but in my opinion it is highly unlikely. 

Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Aunt Agatha on November 30, 2011, 04:51:PM
This was a possibility.  There are eye witnesses who have stated they saw a man running across the fields, away from the house, on the said night.

Further people from the area have come forward to confirm this.

Also, we had the relative of a particular person come forward, whose grandfather died under suspicious circumstances - who used to work alongside Ralph.....and the remainder of that close group of colleagues all died under suspicious circumstances too.

So, was this a professional job?   My friend and I took this information seriously and made a trip to T.D'Arcy, however, our motives were misinterpreted and JB became aware of our plans and he adamantly refused to let us persue this.

I feel this was a mistake!
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: ngb1066 on November 30, 2011, 05:38:PM
This was a possibility.  There are eye witnesses who have stated they saw a man running across the fields, away from the house, on the said night.

Further people from the area have come forward to confirm this.

Also, we had the relative of a particular person come forward, whose grandfather died under suspicious circumstances - who used to work alongside Ralph.....and the remainder of that close group of colleagues all died under suspicious circumstances too.

So, was this a professional job?   My friend and I took this information seriously and made a trip to T.D'Arcy, however, our motives were misinterpreted and JB became aware of our plans and he adamantly refused to let us persue this.

I feel this was a mistake!

If this was a massacre carried out by an unknown person there is a problem in explaining the telephone call Jeremy received from his father.  I suppose it is possible that Nevill was coerced into making this call in order to persuade Jeremy to go to WHF, presumably so that he could be killed as well.  I find this a difficult scenario to accept but I am interested to hear other views on it.

 
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: nugnug on November 30, 2011, 05:46:PM
perhaps heard shooting and just assumed it was sheila

or perhaps the phone call was genuine but sheila had calmed down by then.

or that wasn't really Nevile on the phone but someone impersonating him..
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: ngb1066 on November 30, 2011, 05:52:PM
perhaps heard shooting and just assumed it was sheila

or perhaps the phone call was genuine but sheila had calmed down by then.

or that wasn't really Nevile on the phone but someone impersonating him..

The idea of somebody impersonating Nevill is an interesting one.  I will give that some further thought.  What would the motive be for murdering 5 or 6 members of a family?  It would have to be based upon something exceptionally serious.

 
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: mertol22 on November 30, 2011, 07:23:PM
This was a possibility.  There are eye witnesses who have stated they saw a man running across the fields, away from the house, on the said night.

Further people from the area have come forward to confirm this.

Also, we had the relative of a particular person come forward, whose grandfather died under suspicious circumstances - who used to work alongside Ralph.....and the remainder of that close group of colleagues all died under suspicious circumstances too.

So, was this a professional job?   My friend and I took this information seriously and made a trip to T.D'Arcy, however, our motives were misinterpreted and JB became aware of our plans and he adamantly refused to let us persue this.

I feel this was a mistake!
Again this has come up , someone spotted running away, as ive mentioned before as many will know this is in Colin Caffells book In search of the Rainbows End, i remember starting a thread on this called Running Away,
where this is important why on earth did the police not give chase? were there no police dogs at WHF that night/early hours?
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Aunt Agatha on November 30, 2011, 07:39:PM
This was a possibility.  There are eye witnesses who have stated they saw a man running across the fields, away from the house, on the said night.

Further people from the area have come forward to confirm this.

Also, we had the relative of a particular person come forward, whose grandfather died under suspicious circumstances - who used to work alongside Ralph.....and the remainder of that close group of colleagues all died under suspicious circumstances too.

So, was this a professional job?   My friend and I took this information seriously and made a trip to T.D'Arcy, however, our motives were misinterpreted and JB became aware of our plans and he adamantly refused to let us persue this.

I feel this was a mistake!

If this was a massacre carried out by an unknown person there is a problem in explaining the telephone call Jeremy received from his father.  I suppose it is possible that Nevill was coerced into making this call in order to persuade Jeremy to go to WHF, presumably so that he could be killed as well.  I find this a difficult scenario to accept but I am interested to hear other views on it.

 


The phone call:  Imagine it was a hit man....(NOT brought in by Jeremy).   There aim was to kill the whole family.....Ralph has been ordered to make a phone call to JB, to get him to the house.  However, the call that Ralph makes is not to Jb but the Police (the phone numbers are similar enough for Ralph to do this even if hitman is standing nearby.

Ralph tells  the Police that Sheila has gone mad etc.......hitman realises this is not a call to JB but Police.

Ralph now has to make the phone call to JB, with a gun to his neck (which would explain the marking's on Ralphs's neck)........

I'm not going to go into minute detail, but could this be an explanation for the phone call?
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: TJB65 on November 30, 2011, 07:54:PM
This was a possibility.  There are eye witnesses who have stated they saw a man running across the fields, away from the house, on the said night.

Further people from the area have come forward to confirm this.

Also, we had the relative of a particular person come forward, whose grandfather died under suspicious circumstances - who used to work alongside Ralph.....and the remainder of that close group of colleagues all died under suspicious circumstances too.

So, was this a professional job?   My friend and I took this information seriously and made a trip to T.D'Arcy, however, our motives were misinterpreted and JB became aware of our plans and he adamantly refused to let us persue this.

I feel this was a mistake!

If this was a massacre carried out by an unknown person there is a problem in explaining the telephone call Jeremy received from his father.  I suppose it is possible that Nevill was coerced into making this call in order to persuade Jeremy to go to WHF, presumably so that he could be killed as well.  I find this a difficult scenario to accept but I am interested to hear other views on it.

 


The phone call:  Imagine it was a hit man....(NOT brought in by Jeremy).   There aim was to kill the whole family.....Ralph has been ordered to make a phone call to JB, to get him to the house.  However, the call that Ralph makes is not to Jb but the Police (the phone numbers are similar enough for Ralph to do this even if hitman is standing nearby.

Ralph tells  the Police that Sheila has gone mad etc.......hitman realises this is not a call to JB but Police.

Ralph now has to make the phone call to JB, with a gun to his neck (which would explain the marking's on Ralphs's neck)........

I'm not going to go into minute detail, but could this be an explanation for the phone call?
The only thing with this theory is, If someone was coercing Ralph into calling J to the farm, wouldn't the said person holding a gun to him get wind when Ralph called sheila ''my daughter'' listing the guns and then giving out the address for the farm?? The so called assailent in this scenario must have twigged that Ralph was not on the phone to Jeremy almost immediately?
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: mertol22 on November 30, 2011, 07:54:PM
This was a possibility.  There are eye witnesses who have stated they saw a man running across the fields, away from the house, on the said night.

Further people from the area have come forward to confirm this.

Also, we had the relative of a particular person come forward, whose grandfather died under suspicious circumstances - who used to work alongside Ralph.....and the remainder of that close group of colleagues all died under suspicious circumstances too.

So, was this a professional job?   My friend and I took this information seriously and made a trip to T.D'Arcy, however, our motives were misinterpreted and JB became aware of our plans and he adamantly refused to let us persue this.

I feel this was a mistake!

If this was a massacre carried out by an unknown person there is a problem in explaining the telephone call Jeremy received from his father.  I suppose it is possible that Nevill was coerced into making this call in order to persuade Jeremy to go to WHF, presumably so that he could be killed as well.  I find this a difficult scenario to accept but I am interested to hear other views on it.

 


The phone call:  Imagine it was a hit man....(NOT brought in by Jeremy).   There aim was to kill the whole family.....Ralph has been ordered to make a phone call to JB, to get him to the house.  However, the call that Ralph makes is not to Jb but the Police (the phone numbers are similar enough for Ralph to do this even if hitman is standing nearby.

Ralph tells  the Police that Sheila has gone mad etc.......hitman realises this is not a call to JB but Police.

Ralph now has to make the phone call to JB, with a gun to his neck (which would explain the marking's on Ralphs's neck)........

I'm not going to go into minute detail, but could this be an explanation for the phone call?
There is nothing wrong with this version, Shona seems there was a hitman involved, my problem is Sheilas wounds upon storming WHF ?
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: nugnug on November 30, 2011, 09:18:PM
do we know if nevile dialed 999 or the police station number.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Aunt Agatha on November 30, 2011, 09:23:PM
do we know if nevile dialed 999 or the police station number.




He dialed the Police station number...not 999.  Which also raises the question why he did not dial 999.

Therefore, it does explain why he dialed the station direct.  A very brave man indeed!!
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Aunt Agatha on November 30, 2011, 09:30:PM
This was a possibility.  There are eye witnesses who have stated they saw a man running across the fields, away from the house, on the said night.

Further people from the area have come forward to confirm this.

Also, we had the relative of a particular person come forward, whose grandfather died under suspicious circumstances - who used to work alongside Ralph.....and the remainder of that close group of colleagues all died under suspicious circumstances too.

So, was this a professional job?   My friend and I took this information seriously and made a trip to T.D'Arcy, however, our motives were misinterpreted and JB became aware of our plans and he adamantly refused to let us persue this.

I feel this was a mistake!

If this was a massacre carried out by an unknown person there is a problem in explaining the telephone call Jeremy received from his father.  I suppose it is possible that Nevill was coerced into making this call in order to persuade Jeremy to go to WHF, presumably so that he could be killed as well.  I find this a difficult scenario to accept but I am interested to hear other views on it.

 


The phone call:  Imagine it was a hit man....(NOT brought in by Jeremy).   There aim was to kill the whole family.....Ralph has been ordered to make a phone call to JB, to get him to the house.  However, the call that Ralph makes is not to Jb but the Police (the phone numbers are similar enough for Ralph to do this even if hitman is standing nearby.

Ralph tells  the Police that Sheila has gone mad etc.......hitman realises this is not a call to JB but Police.

Ralph now has to make the phone call to JB, with a gun to his neck (which would explain the marking's on Ralphs's neck)........

I'm not going to go into minute detail, but could this be an explanation for the phone call?
The only thing with this theory is, If someone was coercing Ralph into calling J to the farm, wouldn't the said person holding a gun to him get wind when Ralph called sheila ''my daughter'' listing the guns and then giving out the address for the farm?? The so called assailent in this scenario must have twigged that Ralph was not on the phone to Jeremy almost immediately?


Exactly!!  Pu yourself in Ralph's shoes....maybe the children have been shot already.....he more than likely assured himself he's going to die too.  Therefore, what does he have to lose?

Doing this, he will be aware there will be two outcomes - he is either shot immediately....which was possibly inevitable AND he at least spares Jeremy's life....OR....he will still be forced to make the call to Jeremy.....which is what happened.   

Ralph would have been given one hell of a beating for what he did............he would have been made to suffer for his bravery.......which explains the extent of Ralph's injuries.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Aunt Agatha on November 30, 2011, 10:23:PM
Imagine for a second if you will, that it was a hit man.  This was a professional job!

Some people already believe, or have a theory that Freemasons are involved.  Whatever, this call came from very high up.  Ralph WAS the main target - but incase anybody else within the family knew anything.....they all had to be assassinated.  No one must survive!!

Ralph makes the call to the police station.....whilst hit man has his back turned or is dealing with someone else in the house.....once this is done, he is then forced to make the call to get Jeremy, to get him over.

Now, if hitman knows R phoned Police.....why did he not run immediately?  He knew police would be on their way.

But, what if, hitman has been assured that Police or no-one will enter the house.....he will be given time to escape....in order that the JOB must be completed.

Question:  Who would have the Authority to tell the police to step back....or not enter the house?  Someone high up, is pulling all the strings here.....EP are just puppets - though they don't know it at the time.

If this were true, it would answer some unresolved questions as to why Police did not enter sooner etc.

Hitman escapes thru the back.....Police maybe have been told to stay front - concentrate on what's happening inside the house.  It would not be inconceivable for a deploy to have been set up, in the event of such a problem occurring.  Anyhow. hitman takes the back field and no-one is questioned further about it....not even when witnesses state they saw someone at the back of the house.  This line of inquiry is not pursued.  Why?

Then the problem of EP arises!  This was not supposed to happen either.  A quick cover up to protect EP also ensures that any orders given from 'up high' are never revealed by EP themselves.

Now they have a problem.  Jeremy!  What to do with him.  He's still alive.....AND, he may know why Ralph was killed.   Or, the 'persons' who set this whole thing up, only fear he may know...therefore, he MUST NOT be permitted to speak.   What is the solution?  Lock him up.....for life!  And when it's near his time for release.....lock him up permanently!!! 

If this where the case - then no matter what evidence one puts forward, they'll be someone 'up high' making absolutely certain this man is never released.....great lengths will be gone to to discredit any evidence put forward.

Does this sound extreme?  Unbelievable?

Well one only has to look at the case to see it's not straight forward.  It would also involve 'lots' of people deliberately lying etc....but what if, they were ordered to do this.....

I try to think and see beyond what is just in front of me.......if this was a pro job - it would answer many questions!

Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Aunt Agatha on November 30, 2011, 10:34:PM
This was a possibility.  There are eye witnesses who have stated they saw a man running across the fields, away from the house, on the said night.

Further people from the area have come forward to confirm this.

Also, we had the relative of a particular person come forward, whose grandfather died under suspicious circumstances - who used to work alongside Ralph.....and the remainder of that close group of colleagues all died under suspicious circumstances too.

So, was this a professional job?   My friend and I took this information seriously and made a trip to T.D'Arcy, however, our motives were misinterpreted and JB became aware of our plans and he adamantly refused to let us persue this.

I feel this was a mistake!

If this was a massacre carried out by an unknown person there is a problem in explaining the telephone call Jeremy received from his father.  I suppose it is possible that Nevill was coerced into making this call in order to persuade Jeremy to go to WHF, presumably so that he could be killed as well.  I find this a difficult scenario to accept but I am interested to hear other views on it.

 


The phone call:  Imagine it was a hit man....(NOT brought in by Jeremy).   There aim was to kill the whole family.....Ralph has been ordered to make a phone call to JB, to get him to the house.  However, the call that Ralph makes is not to Jb but the Police (the phone numbers are similar enough for Ralph to do this even if hitman is standing nearby.

Ralph tells  the Police that Sheila has gone mad etc.......hitman realises this is not a call to JB but Police.

Ralph now has to make the phone call to JB, with a gun to his neck (which would explain the marking's on Ralphs's neck)........

I'm not going to go into minute detail, but could this be an explanation for the phone call?
There is nothing wrong with this version, Shona seems there was a hitman involved, my problem is Sheilas wounds upon storming WHF ?




Sheila!  Put yourself in her shoes.  She has been diagnosed with a severe mental illness....and the worst kind.  She has spoken of killing her own children and has been sectioned for attempted suicide (I believe).

She now finds herself alive - in a house full of dead bodies.  The hitman has probably been made fully aware of his targets and their backgrounds.  If Sheila where left alive, no doubt she would be blamed for the murders....and it would be a good cover for the hitman as no matter how much she protested her innocence.......she would not have been believed!!   Sheila finding herself alone in the house, with all the Police outside, more than likely thought this too.

What are her options......life in prison!!

OR

She commits suicide and dies with her family.

Her first attempt fails....but once police have gained entry there is no more room for mistakes.....and this time she dies.

Again, if this where the case, many questions could be answered more straightforwardly.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: DCrump on November 30, 2011, 10:48:PM
Somewhere in that lot you said:

Quote
Now they have a problem.  Jeremy!  What to do with him.  He's still alive.....AND, he may know why Ralph was killed.   Or, the 'persons' who set this whole thing up, only fear he may know...therefore, he MUST NOT be permitted to speak.   What is the solution?  Lock him up.....for life!  And when it's near his time for release.....lock him up permanently!!! 


He's in prison, not dead - why wouldn't he speak?

I think I can see why JB / the campaign declined your assistance.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: chochokeira on November 30, 2011, 10:51:PM
do we know if nevile dialed 999 or the police station number.




He dialed the Police station number...not 999.  Which also raises the question why he did not dial 999.

Therefore, it does explain why he dialed the station direct.  A very brave man indeed!!


I've never seen a compelling explanation for the circular marks on Nevill's neck. The lack of an explanation for these marks is one of a number of reasons I have for not discounting the possibility of a third party killer, a killer unconnected to Jeremy or only marginally connected.

Nevill was a local magistrate who had lived at Tolleshunt D'Arcy and been an active member of the local community for over 30 years. He would have known the phone numbers of the police stations at Witham and Chelmsford and would have been well known to police officers based at these stations.

He was also known to have had enemies and to have been threatened: hence the panic line that had been installed at the instigation of local police.

Would the police have known that Nevill was not using the panic line when he called? Might Nevill perhaps have hoped that the police might therefore suspect that he was being coerced when he made the call?
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: nugnug on November 30, 2011, 10:54:PM
Somewhere in that lot you said:

Quote
Now they have a problem.  Jeremy!  What to do with him.  He's still alive.....AND, he may know why Ralph was killed.   Or, the 'persons' who set this whole thing up, only fear he may know...therefore, he MUST NOT be permitted to speak.   What is the solution?  Lock him up.....for life!  And when it's near his time for release.....lock him up permanently!!! 


He's in prison, not dead - why wouldn't he speak?

I think I can see why JB / the campaign declined your assistance.

who would believe a convicted who came up with a far fetched story like that.

it wouldn't matter weather he spoke or not.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Aunt Agatha on November 30, 2011, 10:59:PM
Somewhere in that lot you said:

Quote
Now they have a problem.  Jeremy!  What to do with him.  He's still alive.....AND, he may know why Ralph was killed.   Or, the 'persons' who set this whole thing up, only fear he may know...therefore, he MUST NOT be permitted to speak.   What is the solution?  Lock him up.....for life!  And when it's near his time for release.....lock him up permanently!!! 


He's in prison, not dead - why wouldn't he speak?

I think I can see why JB / the campaign declined your assistance.





Because Jeremy doesn't know anything.....that is why!

Also, if he did know something....and he revealed it......then that's goodbye to his freedom.  Whilst he is in prison he will no doubt be disbelieved...again.....but if he came out - whatever he knew, he may go and look for the truth....and at the same time - may ust find out who was behind this whole thing.


Ouch!  Your comments hurt..... 
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: mertol22 on November 30, 2011, 11:01:PM
no hitman would have spared anyone unless that was the contract , there is still the problem of how they entered the house, most contract killers have their own firearms .
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: nugnug on November 30, 2011, 11:06:PM
what if they entered the house throw the front door because Nevile let them in.

or they had a key.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Aunt Agatha on November 30, 2011, 11:10:PM
no hitman would have spared anyone unless that was the contract , there is still the problem of how they entered the house, most contract killers have their own firearms .




Good point about firearms....but, if he used his own, then they could not pin the murders on Sheila.  Sheila would have been left alive, deliberately, to cover the hitman's tracks.  Using his own piece would only take suspicion away from Sheila and they would be looking for an outsider...as sheila would have stated had she lived.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: chochokeira on November 30, 2011, 11:21:PM
no hitman would have spared anyone unless that was the contract , there is still the problem of how they entered the house, most contract killers have their own firearms .




Good point about firearms....but, if he used his own, then they could not pin the murders on Sheila.  Sheila would have been left alive, deliberately, to cover the hitman's tracks.  Using his own piece would only take suspicion away from Sheila and they would be looking for an outsider...as sheila would have stated had she lived.


If a hit man was the killer, he (or she) might well be an outsider. Yet there were a number of local suspects too.  The man who left the area with his family following the murders, who (around a year later?) killed his wife and another member of his family (his mother in law?) was one of the other suspects, wasn't he?
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: nugnug on November 30, 2011, 11:25:PM
who ever they were they would have to know about sheilas illness.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Aunt Agatha on November 30, 2011, 11:27:PM
no hitman would have spared anyone unless that was the contract , there is still the problem of how they entered the house, most contract killers have their own firearms .




Good point about firearms....but, if he used his own, then they could not pin the murders on Sheila.  Sheila would have been left alive, deliberately, to cover the hitman's tracks.  Using his own piece would only take suspicion away from Sheila and they would be looking for an outsider...as sheila would have stated had she lived.


If a hit man was the killer, he (or she) might well be an outsider. Yet there were a number of local suspects too.  The man who left the area with his family following the murders, who (around a year later?) killed his wife and another member of his family (his mother in law?) was one of the other suspects, wasn't he?
[/quo




True.  When I said 'outsider'. I meant outside of the family.  Sorry for the confusion.....but yes, you are right, it could have been anyone.  However, I've been lead to theory it was a pro job......why would a community member kill the children also?   Maybe a pro could do it.....to let the family see he was not 'messing around'.....that this was serious!!!
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: mertol22 on November 30, 2011, 11:31:PM
we could do with shona now, help us out, another problem i have with a 3rd party , a hitman would not have got in a struggle just clean shooting and out, what if the guns jammed in the house , how would the 3rd party know where eveyone would be ?
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Aunt Agatha on November 30, 2011, 11:35:PM
who ever they were they would have to know about sheilas illness.




Definitely - because to save arousing suspicion of it being anyone else she was 'the fall guy'.  She was meant to get the blame.....no matter what the outcome! 

But the family denied it could ever have been Sheila (and questions still remain unanswered really, how did sheila, at 7st, attack a 15st man the size of Ralph with all the meds she was on).  .....yes, the family  blamed JB for their own benefit.......but if it was not Sheila....and it was not JB...then who was it?
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: jackiepreece on November 30, 2011, 11:37:PM
Keira
Have you posted about the man who left the area,  who was he
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Aunt Agatha on November 30, 2011, 11:39:PM
we could do with shona now, help us out, another problem i have with a 3rd party , a hitman would not have got in a struggle just clean shooting and out, what if the guns jammed in the house , how would the 3rd party know where eveyone would be ?


Clean shooting - I agree.  Mother and kids first.  Ralph had to get Jeremy over to the house, but he got a good beating after the prank he pulled calling the police instead of JB....and Sheila...she was not to be killed anyway.

Of course, whilst waiting for JB to arrive, the surviving family members would have put up one hell of a fight!
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: chochokeira on November 30, 2011, 11:59:PM
Keira
Have you posted about the man who left the area,  who was he


I forget, Mike will know.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: chochokeira on December 01, 2011, 12:22:AM
who ever they were they would have to know about sheilas illness.




Definitely - because to save arousing suspicion of it being anyone else she was 'the fall guy'.  She was meant to get the blame.....no matter what the outcome! 

But the family denied it could ever have been Sheila (and questions still remain unanswered really, how did sheila, at 7st, attack a 15st man the size of Ralph with all the meds she was on).  .....yes, the family  blamed JB for their own benefit.......but if it was not Sheila....and it was not JB...then who was it?


Susan Wright was a tiny slip of a woman when she murdered her much larger husband, she stabbed him 193 times before burying him under the patio.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Aunt Agatha on December 01, 2011, 12:52:AM
who ever they were they would have to know about sheilas illness.




Definitely - because to save arousing suspicion of it being anyone else she was 'the fall guy'.  She was meant to get the blame.....no matter what the outcome! 

But the family denied it could ever have been Sheila (and questions still remain unanswered really, how did sheila, at 7st, attack a 15st man the size of Ralph with all the meds she was on).  .....yes, the family  blamed JB for their own benefit.......but if it was not Sheila....and it was not JB...then who was it?


Susan Wright was a tiny slip of a woman when she murdered her much larger husband, she stabbed him 193 times before burying him under the patio.




Was she dosed up on meds at the time tho?
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: nugnug on December 01, 2011, 01:00:AM
i don't think she was takeing tablets i think she was on injections it would depend on how many megs the injection was.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Aunt Agatha on December 01, 2011, 01:06:AM
i don't think she was takeing tablets i think she was on injections it would depend on how many megs the injection was.



I can't remember exactly what it was she was on, however, I have read Mike's posts about the impact on what she was on.....all I can remember was, was that she was dosed up.  How dosed up, I can't recall.  However, it remains......she was dosed up!!
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: chochokeira on December 01, 2011, 01:27:AM
who ever they were they would have to know about sheilas illness.


The mother who murdered her five children by drowning each of them in the bath - one by one, poor little mites - she was schizophrenic and wasn't she suffering withdrawal symptoms from reduced medication, just as Sheila was?



Definitely - because to save arousing suspicion of it being anyone else she was 'the fall guy'.  She was meant to get the blame.....no matter what the outcome! 

But the family denied it could ever have been Sheila (and questions still remain unanswered really, how did sheila, at 7st, attack a 15st man the size of Ralph with all the meds she was on).  .....yes, the family  blamed JB for their own benefit.......but if it was not Sheila....and it was not JB...then who was it?


Susan Wright was a tiny slip of a woman when she murdered her much larger husband, she stabbed him 193 times before burying him under the patio.




Was she dosed up on meds at the time tho?
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: chochokeira on December 01, 2011, 01:34:AM
who ever they were they would have to know about sheilas illness.


The mother who murdered her five children by drowning each of them in the bath - one by one, poor little mites - she was schizophrenic and wasn't she suffering withdrawal symptoms from reduced medication, just as Sheila was?



Definitely - because to save arousing suspicion of it being anyone else she was 'the fall guy'.  She was meant to get the blame.....no matter what the outcome! 

But the family denied it could ever have been Sheila (and questions still remain unanswered really, how did sheila, at 7st, attack a 15st man the size of Ralph with all the meds she was on).  .....yes, the family  blamed JB for their own benefit.......but if it was not Sheila....and it was not JB...then who was it?


Susan Wright was a tiny slip of a woman when she murdered her much larger husband, she stabbed him 193 times before burying him under the patio.




Was she dosed up on meds at the time tho?


My timeline for Sheila will answer some of the recent questions about her:

A timeline of Sheila's life


1957            Sheila is rejected by her birth mother.
 
1957            Adopted by June and Nevill at a few months old.
 
1957            That photograph in which June's chilling, possessive smile and Nevill's
                    detachment from this seem to set the pattern for Sheila's life.
 
1957            June can't cope as a mother, is hospitalised with a breakdown
 
1957            Was Sheila placed in foster care - with a 'third mother'?
 
1957            June becomes a religious fanatic - a symptom of her illness - preaches
                    constantly. 'Her arms hanging down by her sides', June is a cold,
                    judgemental mother. She sets unattainable standards of conduct for her
                    children.  Is she setting them up to fail and to remain dependent?
 
1960s/70s   Unsurprisingly, Sheila becomes a disturbed child - she's expelled from two
                    schools.
 
1970s          Sheila fails at secretarial college - can't hold down work.
 
1970s          Sheila does a modelling course, yet fails to become model.
 
1974            Sheila, aged 17 begins seeing Colin, aged 21, a more worldly wise
                    Londoner.
 
1974            Colin takes those pornographic photos of 17 year old Sheila
 
1974            Sheila is rejected as the 'devil's child' by her adoptive mother, June.
 
1974            Aged 17 or 18, unmarried Sheila becomes pregnant.
 
1975            Aged 17 or 18, Sheila moves in with Colin - to get away from her family? -
                    she also becomes pregnant again.
.
1975            Sheila miscarries.
 
1977            Sheila & Colin are pressured and cajoled into a shotgun marriage, partly
                    with a sticky web of financial inducements - which come at a very high
                    price?
 
1978            Sheila has violent episodes - e.g. punches her hand through a window on
                    21st birthday - a signal of what's to come.

1978-80s     Sheila self harms - I've read in Shaw - evidence of this?
 
1977            Miscarriage 2
 
1978??         Miscarriage 3??
 
1979            The twins are born.
 
1979            Sheila and Colin's marriage breaks up, Sheila is left with 4-5 month old
                    twins. Colin takes a new partner.
 
1979            Sheila, unable to cope, is assigned a social worker and child minder.
 
1979-85       Sheila is so depressed and self obsessed that she rarely speaks to her
                    children. The twins have accidents due to this - Nicholas's fall from taxi
 
1981            Sheila begins to see Freddie - dependent on him for money and support,
                    yet she cuts him dead at other times. Sheila still loves only Colin.
 
1981           "Sheila had a very quick and violent temper...[she'd] lose over the
                    simplest of things" (Freddie's statement)
 
1982            Sheila and Colin divorce - Colin has joint custody of twins.
 
1982            Sheila is moved to Moors Head Mansions flat by her parents - an expensive
                    liability Sheila cannot afford - another thread in the sticky web of
                    dependency and control.
 
1979            Sheila lives on benefits plus parental financial support.
 
1979/80s     Sheila is left financially dependent on her manipulative parents: an
                    expensive flat, expensive private mental health care and loan support. 
                    Do these killing kindnesses keep Sheila immature and in child like
                    dependence on June and Nevill?
 
                    Yet Sheila still has the apparent freedom of living in London.
 
1979/80s     Sheila is unable to find a proper new partner and happiness as Colin
                    has done.
 

1983            Nicholas is hospitalised after falling from a taxi because Sheila was too self
                    obsessed to notice.
 
1983            Sheila has her first breakdown, is hospitalised for 3 months
                    (threatens suicide?).  As Freddie stated: this 'breakdown was coming on
                    for some time,  Nicholas's accident was last straw'.
 
1983            June and Nevill are so ashamed of Sheila's illness and its implications for
                    their social standing that they're determined to conceal it. They even
                    conceal it from family.
 
                    Does the veil of secrecy thrown across Sheila's mental illness by her
                    parents intermesh with the Bamber's sticky web of control?
 
1983-85       Sheila becomes a religious fanatic obsessed with the devil, just like
                    June.   

                    Perhaps Sheila wasn't wrong in feeling herself possessed, but merely chose
                    the wrong culprit?     

1985 Mch?   Freddie's statement: Sheila has a psychotic episode and becomes
                     'like someone possessed'. She's violent, abusive, punches walls and
                    herself. Freddie is terrified for the safety of everyone in the flat.
 
1985 Mch     Sheila has another breakdown - she believes she, the twins and
                    family are possessed by the devil, that the twins are capable of raping
                    and harming her, that exorcism alone could stop this.
 
1985 Mch     Sheila is diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic and is prescribed the
                    antipsychotic drug, Haloperidol.
 
1985            Sheila meets her birth mother for the first time - a very positive experience
 
1985 Mch-Aug   Care and custody of twins is removed from Sheila 95% of the time
 
1985 July     Sheila's Haloperidol is reduced by 50% - dangerously at odds with
                    guidance that the drug should not be reduced by more than 10% at
                    one time and the results monitored prior to any further reduction.
 
1985 Aug 1?  Sheila shows the effects of Haloperidol withdrawal. the Nurse's
                     statement: Sheila looks unkempt and disturbed at a party, behaves
                     oddly -  it's clear she's schizophrenic and obsessed with Colin.
 
1985 Aug 2?  Sheila appears at 2nd party looking stunning, except for her wild,
                     staring eyes. Ignores twins, unable to help, all she seems interested in
                     is getting Colin's attention.                   
 
1985 Aug 4   Colin takes Sheila to WHF, on the way he rejects her final attempt
                     to reconcile with him and her children
 
1985 Aug 6   June and Nevill, seeing the effects of Sheila's Haloperidol withdrawal
                     and her worsening mental health, tell Sheila they want Sheila and the
                     boys to move near them and the boys fostered there, so that they can
                     provide support.

                     Sheila's flat and lifestyle is paid for by her parents, she is in a hopelessly
                     weak position to refuse to comply.

                     A move near her parents would mean:

                     Living near her manipulative mother
                     Her twins coming under June's control and influence
                     Complete loss of her autonomy and freedom
                     A total change of her lifestyle
                     Sheila recalls only too well how controlled life is with June nearby
                     A return to the misery of her childhood
                     Worst of all: it would mean moving away from London and Colin
                     Yet Colin's totally rejected her
                     What is she to do?

1985 Aug 6   Already suffering the destabilising effects of Haliperidol withdrawal,
                     Sheila's panic stricken response to this demand places her under
                     intolerable stress.  She first objects, then does what her parents do:
                     conceals her fears and withdraws into herself. Barely replying to her
                     aunt on the phone. Sheila goes to her room. There, gripped by panic
                     attacks, her mind fragments,
                                     
                     Following hours of increasingly deranged panics, poor Sheila has
                     the severest psychotic hallucinations she has ever had, similar to
                     those that Freddie described, yet worse:

                     Sheila no longer recognises her family. Her voices tell her that they're
                     all devils and that she must save the boys and herself by carrying out the
                     exorcism herself?
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: campion on December 01, 2011, 03:16:AM
IT IS 1.12AM on 1- 12 -11. I had written down my alternative account of the tragedy at the start of the thread. It may seem far fetched, but it mirrors Humphrey's ingenios solution to some extent. It starts after JB has gone home, when auntie Pam, not before time, on aprompt from her spouse, telephones her sister, and surprise, surprise Sheila, her favorite little cuckoo, and the twins are on their hols. Later on, well after Sheila and June had said God BLESS ... and choosing 3 names from the sheet of capital letters,.as the twins were tucked up in bed, thy too went to bed. In the night Crispy was disturbed and started yapping. Bruce, Ralph's Labrador, may have been barking in the back kitchen. Ralph gets his shotgun, from under the bed, and probably goes down the back stairs. He opens the ohtside door and is jumped by masked raiders. They thrust him into the main kitchen winging him and beatig him up with shotgun. One otwo of the gang go up to deal with the rest of the family. The one covering Ralph, tortures him with the bootscraper or old thatching comb or similar, to make him phone Jeremy. Two if assume there are three of them, vamoose. The other one having disposed of Ralph, phones Witham P.S. The plan being to  dispose of Jeremy and the police would find JB dead on arrival. By phoning the Chelmsford P.S. Jeremy put the plan out of kilter. During the time he was holdig on for the Police to answer, and then phoning Muggie, JBmissed his date with his maker, and set in motion the most   intriguing and intricate mystery since JTR. What happened to Bruce and the backdoor keys, was Sheila transferred upstairs in a rolled up carpet, was there combined drugs operation  on  on that particular night in the vicinity. So many things to ponder on. I apologise for typing and lack of question marks there would bealot if I could find the right KEY, AND SO TO BED.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: mike tesko on December 01, 2011, 03:29:AM
who ever they were they would have to know about sheilas illness.


The mother who murdered her five children by drowning each of them in the bath - one by one, poor little mites - she was schizophrenic and wasn't she suffering withdrawal symptoms from reduced medication, just as Sheila was?



Definitely - because to save arousing suspicion of it being anyone else she was 'the fall guy'.  She was meant to get the blame.....no matter what the outcome! 

But the family denied it could ever have been Sheila (and questions still remain unanswered really, how did sheila, at 7st, attack a 15st man the size of Ralph with all the meds she was on).  .....yes, the family  blamed JB for their own benefit.......but if it was not Sheila....and it was not JB...then who was it?


Susan Wright was a tiny slip of a woman when she murdered her much larger husband, she stabbed him 193 times before burying him under the patio.




Was she dosed up on meds at the time tho?


My timeline for Sheila will answer some of the recent questions about her:

A timeline of Sheila's life


1957            Sheila is rejected by her birth mother.
 
1957            Adopted by June and Nevill at a few months old.
 
1957            That photograph in which June's chilling, possessive smile and Nevill's
                    detachment from this seem to set the pattern for Sheila's life.
 
1957            June can't cope as a mother, is hospitalised with a breakdown
 
1957            Was Sheila placed in foster care - with a 'third mother'?
 
1957            June becomes a religious fanatic - a symptom of her illness - preaches
                    constantly. 'Her arms hanging down by her sides', June is a cold,
                    judgemental mother. She sets unattainable standards of conduct for her
                    children.  Is she setting them up to fail and to remain dependent?
 
1960s/70s   Unsurprisingly, Sheila becomes a disturbed child - she's expelled from two
                    schools.
 
1970s          Sheila fails at secretarial college - can't hold down work.
 
1970s          Sheila does a modelling course, yet fails to become model.
 
1974            Sheila, aged 17 begins seeing Colin, aged 21, a more worldly wise
                    Londoner.
 
1974            Colin takes those pornographic photos of 17 year old Sheila
 
1974            Sheila is rejected as the 'devil's child' by her adoptive mother, June.
 
1974            Aged 17 or 18, unmarried Sheila becomes pregnant.
 
1975            Aged 17 or 18, Sheila moves in with Colin - to get away from her family? -
                    she also becomes pregnant again.
.
1975            Sheila miscarries.
 
1977            Sheila & Colin are pressured and cajoled into a shotgun marriage, partly
                    with a sticky web of financial inducements - which come at a very high
                    price?
 
1978            Sheila has violent episodes - e.g. punches her hand through a window on
                    21st birthday - a signal of what's to come.

1978-80s     Sheila self harms - I've read in Shaw - evidence of this?
 
1977            Miscarriage 2
 
1978??         Miscarriage 3??
 
1979            The twins are born.
 
1979            Sheila and Colin's marriage breaks up, Sheila is left with 4-5 month old
                    twins. Colin takes a new partner.
 
1979            Sheila, unable to cope, is assigned a social worker and child minder.
 
1979-85       Sheila is so depressed and self obsessed that she rarely speaks to her
                    children. The twins have accidents due to this - Nicholas's fall from taxi
 
1981            Sheila begins to see Freddie - dependent on him for money and support,
                    yet she cuts him dead at other times. Sheila still loves only Colin.
 
1981           "Sheila had a very quick and violent temper...[she'd] lose over the
                    simplest of things" (Freddie's statement)
 
1982            Sheila and Colin divorce - Colin has joint custody of twins.
 
1982            Sheila is moved to Moors Head Mansions flat by her parents - an expensive
                    liability Sheila cannot afford - another thread in the sticky web of
                    dependency and control.
 
1979            Sheila lives on benefits plus parental financial support.
 
1979/80s     Sheila is left financially dependent on her manipulative parents: an
                    expensive flat, expensive private mental health care and loan support. 
                    Do these killing kindnesses keep Sheila immature and in child like
                    dependence on June and Nevill?
 
                    Yet Sheila still has the apparent freedom of living in London.
 
1979/80s     Sheila is unable to find a proper new partner and happiness as Colin
                    has done.
 

1983            Nicholas is hospitalised after falling from a taxi because Sheila was too self
                    obsessed to notice.
 
1983            Sheila has her first breakdown, is hospitalised for 3 months
                    (threatens suicide?).  As Freddie stated: this 'breakdown was coming on
                    for some time,  Nicholas's accident was last straw'.
 
1983            June and Nevill are so ashamed of Sheila's illness and its implications for
                    their social standing that they're determined to conceal it. They even
                    conceal it from family.
 
                    Does the veil of secrecy thrown across Sheila's mental illness by her
                    parents intermesh with the Bamber's sticky web of control?
 
1983-85       Sheila becomes a religious fanatic obsessed with the devil, just like
                    June.   

                    Perhaps Sheila wasn't wrong in feeling herself possessed, but merely chose
                    the wrong culprit?     

1985 Mch?   Freddie's statement: Sheila has a psychotic episode and becomes
                     'like someone possessed'. She's violent, abusive, punches walls and
                    herself. Freddie is terrified for the safety of everyone in the flat.
 
1985 Mch     Sheila has another breakdown - she believes she, the twins and
                    family are possessed by the devil, that the twins are capable of raping
                    and harming her, that exorcism alone could stop this.
 
1985 Mch     Sheila is diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic and is prescribed the
                    antipsychotic drug, Haloperidol.
 
1985            Sheila meets her birth mother for the first time - a very positive experience
 
1985 Mch-Aug   Care and custody of twins is removed from Sheila 95% of the time
 
1985 July     Sheila's Haloperidol is reduced by 50% - dangerously at odds with
                    guidance that the drug should not be reduced by more than 10% at
                    one time and the results monitored prior to any further reduction.
 
1985 Aug 1?  Sheila shows the effects of Haloperidol withdrawal. the Nurse's
                     statement: Sheila looks unkempt and disturbed at a party, behaves
                     oddly -  it's clear she's schizophrenic and obsessed with Colin.
 
1985 Aug 2?  Sheila appears at 2nd party looking stunning, except for her wild,
                     staring eyes. Ignores twins, unable to help, all she seems interested in
                     is getting Colin's attention.                   
 
1985 Aug 4   Colin takes Sheila to WHF, on the way he rejects her final attempt
                     to reconcile with him and her children
 
1985 Aug 6   June and Nevill, seeing the effects of Sheila's Haloperidol withdrawal
                     and her worsening mental health, tell Sheila they want Sheila and the
                     boys to move near them and the boys fostered there, so that they can
                     provide support.

                     Sheila's flat and lifestyle is paid for by her parents, she is in a hopelessly
                     weak position to refuse to comply.

                     A move near her parents would mean:

                     Living near her manipulative mother
                     Her twins coming under June's control and influence
                     Complete loss of her autonomy and freedom
                     A total change of her lifestyle
                     Sheila recalls only too well how controlled life is with June nearby
                     A return to the misery of her childhood
                     Worst of all: it would mean moving away from London and Colin
                     Yet Colin's totally rejected her
                     What is she to do?

1985 Aug 6   Already suffering the destabilising effects of Haliperidol withdrawal,
                     Sheila's panic stricken response to this demand places her under
                     intolerable stress.  She first objects, then does what her parents do:
                     conceals her fears and withdraws into herself. Barely replying to her
                     aunt on the phone. Sheila goes to her room. There, gripped by panic
                     attacks, her mind fragments,
                                     
                     Following hours of increasingly deranged panics, poor Sheila has
                     the severest psychotic hallucinations she has ever had, similar to
                     those that Freddie described, yet worse:

                     Sheila no longer recognises her family. Her voices tell her that they're
                     all devils and that she must save the boys and herself by carrying out the
                     exorcism herself?

6th August - Celebration (THE )...

(1) - http://www.theologic.com/oflweb/feasts/08-06.htm
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: smiffy on December 01, 2011, 09:19:AM
Gosh  ...all these gang of hitmen spy theories...brilliant....NOT.

As MI 5 or MI 6 work in mysterious ways and absolutely anything at all, miracles included, is down to them they become GOD like. Any little probs in evidence is able to be passed off with extreme reasoning etc......
SARCASM.
A great plan is executed...Obviously  such super pro organisations are able to predict confidently that Ralph would open the door etc etc...such super professionals they leave no trace ...or any they do is not revealed by the controlled EP ...etc etc etc.

Trouble is it requires a GOD type belief to go along with it...and I dont buy it.
It seems these cop out type simplistic scenarios operate through paranoia and an inability to properly address evidence. ie Ruling out Sheila as the killer of the other 4 with no evidence other than blind belief and ignorance.

Documentation proves Sheila was not "dosed up", in fact she was under prescribed so was liable to kick off.
Screwed up reasoning...ie Sheila was not mad enough to kill the other 4 but was mad enough to shoot herself is a pill that is too hard to swallow.

Before anyone can really sell a hitman theory they need to explain away to a decent standard why Sheila could not be the killer of the other 4 and everyone who has tried that so far has failed to post anything like a convincing argument.

Sheila never would need to OVERPOWER Ralph to be the killer. Such a reason to dismiss her as the killer is not founded as quite simply once she had a loaded rifle she could order and control her victim..
for example...a compliant Ralph, with rifle pointed at him, would go down on his hands and knees like a dog if ordered to do so by Sheila.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: jackiepreece on December 01, 2011, 12:47:PM
Brilliant work Keira you should email Simon that timeline and I will put it on twitter later
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: ngb1066 on December 01, 2011, 12:57:PM
Brilliant work Keira you should email Simon that timeline and I will put it on twitter later

I agree that is a very good piece of work by Keira, and presents a credible scenario in a detailed context. 

Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: boheme on December 01, 2011, 02:22:PM
I still go with the 3rd party killer but I believe that JB was involved, he left a loaded gun in the kitchen, the telephones were disconnected from Ralf's bedroom, he knew how to get in the house without it being open, he phoned JM to say all was going well....and when he was interviewed as a suspect he could not remember if he called her first or the Police........ Maybe there was a drug link and JB thought he could pay off his debts with his inheritance - I cant buy the theory that Sheila shot herself in the kitchen and then moved upstairs where she was accidentally shot by a Police officer after being pronounced dead by a doctor.... That to me is just too far fetched - it was an execution and Mugford told it as JB told it to her - end of.... in my opinion !
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: nugnug on December 01, 2011, 03:00:PM
he would be a bit stupid to phone the police while this hitman was still in the building.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: smiffy on December 01, 2011, 03:11:PM
I still go with the 3rd party killer but I believe that JB was involved, he left a loaded gun in the kitchen, the telephones were disconnected from Ralf's bedroom, he knew how to get in the house without it being open, he phoned JM to say all was going well....and when he was interviewed as a suspect he could not remember if he called her first or the Police........ Maybe there was a drug link and JB thought he could pay off his debts with his inheritance - I cant buy the theory that Sheila shot herself in the kitchen and then moved upstairs where she was accidentally shot by a Police officer after being pronounced dead by a doctor.... That to me is just too far fetched - it was an execution and Mugford told it as JB told it to her - end of.... in my opinion !


Gosh a super hitman theory....not a speck or mark on how he gained entry nor a trace or speck of his movements inside...brilliant. So it must be McDonald then as thats what MUGFORD claimed in her fantasy... so as far as the law goes can we  call MUGFORD an unconvicted murderer as she supplied pills knowing they were intended for use in murder though eventually not used? ...hmmm and that she lied about a single bullet wound to Sheila's throat ? hmmm...and rather than throw her in prison she gets rewarded with cash etc...!

nah I dont buy that pile of poop...
I will instead use what evidence there is and work from that rather than fantasise away creating non existent evidence to base wild theories on.

2 words matter with evidence...credibility and reliability and these crazy hitman theories seem to have a serious lack of either.



Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: boheme on December 01, 2011, 03:19:PM
That is a good point - maybe it took longer to arrange the bodies to look like 4 murders and a suicide than they planned, it is clear that someone was moving around once they arrived - I do not buy the moon reflected in the glass as described by Bews, you can see he is lying.... was this a male or female ? and who was the guy seen leaving the scene ? Also why did Ralf have a panic button installed - he must have known he was in danger (and surely not from Sheila....) - was this all linked to him growing opium or being a magistrate - or was it JB ?
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: nugnug on December 01, 2011, 03:30:PM
anybody could have got in the house if someone had let them in.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: boheme on December 01, 2011, 03:41:PM
Or explained how to get in by way of a downstairs window...
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: boheme on December 01, 2011, 03:45:PM
Where by complete coincidence there just happened to be a fully loaded rifle and amunition....
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: nugnug on December 01, 2011, 03:45:PM
yes but there relying on nobody closing the window.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: chochokeira on December 01, 2011, 03:55:PM
Brilliant work Keira you should email Simon that timeline and I will put it on twitter later


Thanks, Jackie, however, the pregnancies and miscarriages are incorrect, I made a mess of these when I merged some data and badly need to sort these out. I'd hoped to have done this by now but some personal problems intervened.

The timeline needs tidying up and further information needs to be added too: Sheila's pregnancy by a farm hand of the Bambers at WHF and her subsequent abortion (at 15?), Sheila's illicit drug use, which may well have exacerbated her paranoid schizophrenia and Sheila's time among the 'Gorgeous Girls' of Mayfair for example.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: nugnug on December 01, 2011, 04:02:PM
Where by complete coincidence there just happened to be a fully loaded rifle and amunition....

but they couldn't really on someone in the house not seeing the shotgun and moving it.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: jackiepreece on December 01, 2011, 04:04:PM
Keira
Thanks I was just about to post on twitter and send to Simon but I will hold fire for a bit.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: boheme on December 01, 2011, 06:34:PM
Hi Nug Nug, that is again a good point, they could not rely on someone not moving the gun, you know what I really never thought of that, you are absolutely correct, my whole theory depends on that gun being where JB left it for the hitman to find......... damn....
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: smiffy on December 02, 2011, 07:08:AM
The external paintwork on the house was painted in July so it would all have a fresh appearance so any marks or scuffs would show up very easily...none found to indicate entry or exit. In addition newish paint is much softer and marks far more easily than older paint...so far more likely to become damaged by someone entering or exiting from a window...ie virtually impossible to do such acts without leaving a clear and obvious trail.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Aunt Agatha on December 02, 2011, 11:57:AM
However, with all respect to your views......and I do agree wholeheartedly with them.....if, and this is IF, this where a profesosinal job, involving Freemasons, then ANY signs of an intruder(s) would have been quickly covered up and removed......after all, the witnesses stating they saw someone running away from the house in the back field was NEVER followed up either.  It begs the question 'Why?'
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: OnceSaid on December 03, 2011, 12:14:AM
Is it possible that Sheila was expecting company that evening, perhaps that person arrived, was let in, her parents were in bed, one got up, an arguement ensued, the visitor left, and the arguement escalated into violence, then death.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: SUMMER on December 03, 2011, 08:04:PM
Is it possible that Sheila was expecting company that evening, perhaps that person arrived, was let in, her parents were in bed, one got up, an arguement ensued, the visitor left, and the arguement escalated into violence, then death.
I have often wondered if someone did call to the Farm House at some point after Jeremy left and was
let in by someone. (They could even have been already there when the 'phone-call came in and Ralph
sounded a bit terse to the lady-caller. It might have been the Farm Secretary, but I'm not sure, however I do recall that he did not want her bringing an item to the Farm that evening, which she had 'phoned up to offer to do.)
Also, Sheila spoke on the 'phone as did her Mother to a   relative who rang and thought Sheila sounded
odd as she did not say "goodbye Auntie" but simply handed the 'phone back to her Mother.
June said "Sheila has gone to bed".
So was this just made up to end the 'phone call as it was an inconvenient time as someone had called
over and they were in a discussion with the "person"?
I just don't think that the tensions in the house that night were necessarily just between Sheila and
her parents.
Jeremy only knew the vague nature of the conversation going on shortly before he went home that night.
All could have changed in the subsequent time.
Something WAS going on at White House Farm, but maybe another person, unknown, was involved.

Alternatively, someone did have another set of keys and let themselves in and out that night.
Keys can be copied.
Did the doors have bolts as well as locks on the inside? If the doors had bolts were they regularly used?

Can we be certain that not a single item was stolen from the Farm that night?

As for the "overkill" to the victims, apart from Sheila, that suggests someone very close or derranged.

The person seen running away from the rear? of the Farm House -- well I just cannot think why the Police did not apprehend them.
If you put that in film plot it would be rediculous. So is that really true - did the Police see a person leaving the Farm area and not stop them for questioning?
That person might have been the local poacher, etc, but they may have seen or heard vital things pertaining to who or what happened that night. :-\

Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: mertol22 on December 03, 2011, 08:13:PM
To be honest Summer this matter of a person seen running away that night bothers me, in Colins book it mentions running down a track, why that night and that time, i will be spending 4 days at Fulmer Convent starting the 19th of this month, i will try to come up with something . This person may have something to do with Sheila.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: SUMMER on December 03, 2011, 08:19:PM

Thank you mertol, it beggars belief doesn't it?
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: mertol22 on December 03, 2011, 08:36:PM

Thank you mertol, it beggars belief doesn't it?
Without question Summer, there is so much that remains unanswered
and on that basis alone Jeremy deserves a fresh appeal,If that person seen running away is still around they may have seen something or have locked something away all this time they know.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: nugnug on December 03, 2011, 09:00:PM
To be honest Summer this matter of a person seen running away that night bothers me, in Colins book it mentions running down a track, why that night and that time, i will be spending 4 days at Fulmer Convent starting the 19th of this month, i will try to come up with something . This person may have something to do with Sheila.

and why running not walking.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: mertol22 on December 03, 2011, 10:17:PM
Running is telling me you know where you are going.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Roch on December 03, 2011, 10:28:PM
Running is telling me you know where you are going.

There was that Psychic who wrote to the police and said it was one of Sheila's ex boyfriends or something.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: mertol22 on December 03, 2011, 10:45:PM
Running is telling me you know where you are going.

There was that Psychic who wrote to the police and said it was one of Sheila's ex boyfriends or something.
The same Psychic who colin contacted ?
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Roch on December 03, 2011, 11:02:PM
Running is telling me you know where you are going.

There was that Psychic who wrote to the police and said it was one of Sheila's ex boyfriends or something.
The same Psychic who colin contacted ?

Don't know Mertz.  Somebody wrote a letter in to EP about a relative of theirs who was some kind of 'seer'.   They enclosed some verses from the 'seer'.  The verses recounted some kind of contact with June Bamber's spirit.  That spirit also gave a different surname for herself from an ealier period in June's life when she allegedly lived in London.  The verses went on to state June was most unsettled about Jeremy being wrongly imprisioned for the crime and that the real culprit was a rejected ex boyfriend of Sheila who was full of rage and hate.  It's on the forum somewhere, way back near the beginning of the year.   There's another one also.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: mertol22 on December 03, 2011, 11:06:PM
What gets me is what Summer has said why was this not followed up ?, the Z  guy nothing about it, 5 people were shot dead that night and this figure seen running away is not important to the case, have we all made a mistake is this where the answer lies?.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: chochokeira on December 03, 2011, 11:21:PM
Running is telling me you know where you are going.

There was that Psychic who wrote to the police and said it was one of Sheila's ex boyfriends or something.
The same Psychic who colin contacted ?


The same psychic who Sheila and her Mayfair, wannabe model friends - the ones Powell calls 'The Gorgeous Girls' - consulted and confided in almost every week?

Was this psychic never interviewed?
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: chochokeira on December 03, 2011, 11:24:PM
Running is telling me you know where you are going.

There was that Psychic who wrote to the police and said it was one of Sheila's ex boyfriends or something.
The same Psychic who colin contacted ?


The same psychic who Sheila and her Mayfair, wannabe model friends - the ones Powell calls 'The Gorgeous Girls' - consulted and confided in almost every week?

Was this psychic never interviewed?


Was the boyfriend who was a farm labourer at WHF and who got Sheila pregnant when she was 17, never interviewed? Powell suggests that Sheila was forced by her parents to give him up and to abort his baby.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Roch on December 03, 2011, 11:27:PM
Running is telling me you know where you are going.

There was that Psychic who wrote to the police and said it was one of Sheila's ex boyfriends or something.
The same Psychic who colin contacted ?


The same psychic who Sheila and her Mayfair, wannabe model friends - the ones Powell calls 'The Gorgeous Girls' - consulted and confided in almost every week?

Was this psychic never interviewed?


Was the boyfriend who was a farm labourer at WHF and who got Sheila pregnant when she was 17, never interviewed? Powell suggests that Sheila was forced by her parents to give him up and to abort his baby.

I will have to dig out the thread now.  Happy hunting.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: mertol22 on December 03, 2011, 11:36:PM
Whoever that person was there must have been notes taken somewhere about it, i will have to think why they were there, things may be clearer then.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: chochokeira on December 04, 2011, 12:18:AM
Running is telling me you know where you are going.

There was that Psychic who wrote to the police and said it was one of Sheila's ex boyfriends or something.
The same Psychic who colin contacted ?


The same psychic who Sheila and her Mayfair, wannabe model friends - the ones Powell calls 'The Gorgeous Girls' - consulted and confided in almost every week?

Was this psychic never interviewed?


Was the boyfriend who was a farm labourer at WHF and who got Sheila pregnant when she was 17, never interviewed? Powell suggests that Sheila was forced by her parents to give him up and to abort his baby.


From her earliest childhood, Sheila had been taught about the devil by June and to beware of him. Unlike Jeremy, Sheila believed June's sick tales of the devil and became terrified of being possessed by Satan. Sheila had dreadful nightmares as a child, of the devil appearing in her bedroom and trying to possess her, according to Powell.

So when June caught Sheila and the Bambers' employee, making love in a ditch at WHF, shortly after Sheila's seventeenth birthday, and June frog marched Sheila back to WHF, screaming at Sheila the whole way back that Sheila was evil and the devil's child: Sheila really believed June was right.

By then, Sheila had been so conditioned about the devil and his powers of possession by June that she really began to believe that she was evil and that she was the devil's child. It was this, Powell states, which triggered Sheila's paranoia and illness.



Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Roch on December 04, 2011, 12:18:AM
Here you go,

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,578.0.html
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Roch on December 04, 2011, 12:22:AM
Here you go,

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,578.0.html

Cranks.  But they do name the 'culprit'.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: nugnug on December 05, 2011, 09:34:PM
of course if a third did this will the police were outside.

it would be a bit strange that neither the police or jermy bamber heard any shooting outside.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: HMEssex on December 05, 2011, 10:14:PM
Here you go,

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,578.0.html





Oh dear!  I thought JB's mother was called Juliette not Dora...
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: campion on December 06, 2011, 12:07:AM
She may have been PatPhoenix, or Pat Kirkwood, a striking lady who never got any accolade from HM.   See Michael Thornton' articles on her in the 2007 issues of the Daily Mail.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: campion on December 06, 2011, 11:04:AM
 Last Post played off Key!! But listen to tape, 60 min. of BBCessex recording of ROBERT BUNYARD.   ESSEX REORD OFFICE - SEAX Catalogue ofSA/ 1/179/1. I believe  CC Bunyard was RWBs arch associate at eEssex RAM. In this retirement Interview,in 1987, when he left EP to take up the post of CC of BRAMSHILL Police College, he talks about the BAMBER so it is written. Bramshill is the place where DR SMERDON, the PSYCHIC's letter was passed ford to EP. It may also be the advantageous place to further ones career, e.g. simpson.   
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Roch on December 06, 2011, 11:32:AM
Last Post played off Key!! But listen to tape, 60 min. of BBCessex recording of ROBERT BUNYARD.   ESSEX REORD OFFICE - SEAX Catalogue ofSA/ 1/179/1. I believe  CC Bunyard was RWBs arch associate at eEssex RAM. In this retirement Interview,in 1987, when he left EP to take up the post of CC of BRAMSHILL Police College, he talks about the BAMBER so it is written. Bramshill is the place where DR SMERDON, the PSYCHIC's letter was passed ford to EP. It may also be the advantageous place to further ones career, e.g. simpson.

Campion, I wish I could decipher your posts.  Some of them I find fascinating.  But sadly I find most impenetrable.  These links between people, places and aspects of the case you keep digging up – Do you mind if I ask whereabouts you would place your self on the autism spectrum?  Perhaps you are the illusive ‘Z’.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Hartley on December 06, 2011, 11:47:AM
Last Post played off Key!! But listen to tape, 60 min. of BBCessex recording of ROBERT BUNYARD.   ESSEX REORD OFFICE - SEAX Catalogue ofSA/ 1/179/1. I believe  CC Bunyard was RWBs arch associate at eEssex RAM. In this retirement Interview,in 1987, when he left EP to take up the post of CC of BRAMSHILL Police College, he talks about the BAMBER so it is written. Bramshill is the place where DR SMERDON, the PSYCHIC's letter was passed ford to EP. It may also be the advantageous place to further ones career, e.g. simpson.

Campion, I wish I could decipher your posts.  Some of them I find fascinating.  But sadly I find most impenetrable.  These links between people, places and aspects of the case you keep digging up – Do you mind if I ask whereabouts you would place your self on the autism spectrum?  Perhaps you are the illusive ‘Z’.

I must admit I'm the same, I can't understand them either, I thought it was me. No disrespect to Campion though.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: campion on December 06, 2011, 12:09:PM
N O . HEARTS. Not 'Z'  Maybe OMEGA? or gnome FROM zURICH!!!!!
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: campion on December 06, 2011, 12:15:PM
i  wIsh I COulD TIPe like U BURGERS.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: campion on December 06, 2011, 12:36:PM
sorry CHAPS.  Ihave chequed my Dicktionairy it should be BEGGARS!
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: campion on December 06, 2011, 01:00:PM
HEARTS,  wot CLUB are you in,  I think you are a DIAMOND geeZer,  Do you call a SPADE a SPADE? Do you keep your ACES up your sleeve? TRUMP this, please Donald.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: grahameb on December 06, 2011, 01:06:PM
sorry CHAPS.  Ihave chequed my Dicktionairy it should be BEGGARS!
I thought you meant buggers? ::)
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: grahameb on December 06, 2011, 01:07:PM
HEARTS,  wot CLUB are you in,  I think you are a DIAMOND geeZer,  Do you call a SPADE a SPADE? Do you keep your ACES up your sleeve? TRUMP this, please Donald.
Hartley knows "the family" and is well respected on the forum.......by most. :)
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: SUMMER on December 06, 2011, 08:53:PM
Here you go,

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,578.0.html
Re: 1991 letter from Psychic:

The letter from the Psychic does not make sense.
The Psychic states that Sheila "broke up" with  "Jeff Blake" to "marry the man that was murdered with him".
Suggesting at this point that Jeff Blake and another man that Sheila had decided to marry are now dead.
Yet further on the purported spirit of Jeremy's mother asks that Jeremy is released and kept safe.
The part that I can't understand is what or who it is that Jeremy would need to be kept safe from?
The letter is either fantasy or hinting at a much bigger picture.
Also, the Psychic got the message that the "son was not normal" and the supposed Mother of Jeremy
was a woman who had lived in Hampstead Heath named  or known as"Dora Wiles" and was known to Social Services.
Very confusing letter altogether.
So the question is:
Is there a double murder case in which one of the victims was called Jeff Blake? ???
Or were they never found, so is there a missing person named Jeff Blake?
Do Social Services know of "Dora Wiles" and have a record of her in Hampstead Heath?
Was she Jeremy's Mother ?
Or is this just utter nonsense?



Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: SUMMER on December 06, 2011, 09:01:PM

I just noticed that the "message" states that she was living in Hampstead Heath and "known as
Dora Wiles" to Social SECURITY, NOT, Social Services.
So perhaps not using her real name is being suggested here?
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: Roch on December 06, 2011, 09:15:PM
Well it's got you thinking.  I'm still reeling at Campion's Bramshill post  :D
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: campion on December 07, 2011, 09:48:AM
SUMMER, This is my solution of the 1991 letter, which the fictional Dr SMERDON wrote from CORNWALL.   'DORA is the COLLoquial name for PANdora. WILES are the tricks or ENTICEMENTS, when it is opened,  all EVIL gushes forth.  Could SHEILA be the beautiful PANDORA, who when her BOX was opened by the BRIDEGROOM, all HELL let loose. Is there a remote possibility thay Colin or heather sent this mysterious letter to Bunyard at Bramshill? I reommend you aquaint yoursELVES with the FABLE. It's epilectic!  BTW the last thing that flew from the box was HOPE.      ps  Jeff BLAKE could SEXTON be pointing us towards James BELL deceased.      Ow's about that then, JR ? Farfetched !! ? TYPICAL TYPING.   
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: SUMMER on December 07, 2011, 08:48:PM

campion, who is the deceased James Bell that you mention?
Do you really think that the letter is of a cryptic nature?
If you have worked out more about it's meaning and where it points to, then post it on here.
Summer ???
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: campion on December 09, 2011, 02:03:AM
SUMMER, Thankyou for your appreciative comment! James Bell,s father was FRASER who worked for NEVILL. iT WAS he who was turned back by EP, poss. WPs Jeapes at 7.30 on morning of the murders. It is likely that JIMMY had got Sheila pregnant in the ditch. June found them in the act, becoming atad upset. However, by 1985, jIMMY wasACHAMPION CLAY PIGEON shooter, with amansion and 1200 acres. I know not how. at COGGESHALL. Nevill put him away for 6mths for abusing his 1st wife. When he came out hethreatened ralph with VENGEANCE, in a lane throwing a handful of bullets at him. One can read the sad ending of Jimmy and his 2nd wife AUGUSTA, IN thurlow's book- The Essex Triangle. If I erred I trust Hartl y will put us right!        My best solution for DR MM SMERDON BS, BS being Dr of Seance, is:- DR means do an ANAGRAM, THUS MM SMERDON BS becomes    B. M. MRS DEMONS where B M  = BLOODY MARY!, perhaps Sheila's favorite tipple? Q E D ?     
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: campion on December 09, 2011, 10:10:AM
SUMMER,    Two Amendments on hindsight,    a) B.M. could well be BLESS ME!  b)This concoction appears to have the hand of RWB on it. He would be aware that the former Chief of Essex Police had been promoted to the important post at BRAMSHILL.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: nugnug on December 09, 2011, 02:01:PM
SUMMER, Thankyou for your appreciative comment! James Bell,s father was FRASER who worked for NEVILL. iT WAS he who was turned back by EP, poss. WPs Jeapes at 7.30 on morning of the murders. It is likely that JIMMY had got Sheila pregnant in the ditch. June found them in the act, becoming atad upset. However, by 1985, jIMMY wasACHAMPION CLAY PIGEON shooter, with amansion and 1200 acres. I know not how. at COGGESHALL. Nevill put him away for 6mths for abusing his 1st wife. When he came out hethreatened ralph with VENGEANCE, in a lane throwing a handful of bullets at him. One can read the sad ending of Jimmy and his 2nd wife AUGUSTA, IN thurlow's book- The Essex Triangle. If I erred I trust Hartl y will put us right!        My best solution for DR MM SMERDON BS, BS being Dr of Seance, is:- DR means do an ANAGRAM, THUS MM SMERDON BS becomes    B. M. MRS DEMONS where B M  = BLOODY MARY!, perhaps Sheila's favorite tipple? Q E D ?     

if this is true nevile had no right to be hearing the case.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: SUMMER on December 09, 2011, 08:56:PM
SUMMER, Thankyou for your appreciative comment! James Bell,s father was FRASER who worked for NEVILL. iT WAS he who was turned back by EP, poss. WPs Jeapes at 7.30 on morning of the murders. It is likely that JIMMY had got Sheila pregnant in the ditch. June found them in the act, becoming atad upset. However, by 1985, jIMMY wasACHAMPION CLAY PIGEON shooter, with amansion and 1200 acres. I know not how. at COGGESHALL. Nevill put him away for 6mths for abusing his 1st wife. When he came out hethreatened ralph with VENGEANCE, in a lane throwing a handful of bullets at him. One can read the sad ending of Jimmy and his 2nd wife AUGUSTA, IN thurlow's book- The Essex Triangle. If I erred I trust Hartl y will put us right!        My best solution for DR MM SMERDON BS, BS being Dr of Seance, is:- DR means do an ANAGRAM, THUS MM SMERDON BS becomes    B. M. MRS DEMONS where B M  = BLOODY MARY!, perhaps Sheila's favorite tipple? Q E D ?     
This James "Jimmy" getting Sheila pregnant really could be important if there was proof that it was him.
If he was gaoled by Ralph for 6 months and threw a handful of bullits at him in the lane that definately
explains the panic button in the Farm.
As he later murdered his wife and I think killed himself that shows great mental instability and capability
for extreme violence.
Could he also have been told by Sheila, years before, about how to get in and out of the Farm via the
downstairs window? ???
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: SUMMER on December 09, 2011, 08:58:PM

campion, while I am thinking about it I think that BS would be Batchelor of Seance. ;)
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: campion on December 09, 2011, 10:33:PM
Yes, of course, Summer, I did mean Bachelor. A slip which Hartley ( tinned carrots etc ) should have picked up on. 'No tea in Batchelors just peas and soups!!  Quite a diverting letter by Dr SMERDON M.M.     B.S.  a witty composition, whilst getting STORIES IN CAHOOTS FOR UPC OMING eNQUIRY !!!      NUG-NUG,  If J une hadn't told of the shameful, episode then Ralph would not have known, and Jimmy would not have told the court. Was Stan involved here? Did he get abung from NoTW?  The Airfield in question was not    EARLS COLNE- shut in late 1940's. Probably it was RIVENHALL, which would have come wjthin the Jurisdiction of WITHAM Court house.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: boheme on December 10, 2011, 08:26:AM
I like your posts Campion, thanks.
Title: Re: could this have happened.
Post by: SUMMER on December 12, 2011, 08:17:PM

campion, sorry about my spelling mistake. Of course no "T".
Summer :o