Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on July 19, 2011, 08:00:PM
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Disturbing new Evidence - police show Jeremy photo' of mothers body in kitchen
Whilst being interviewed by the police, at Chelmsford police station, on 9th September 1985, by DS 21 Jones and DC 1801 Clark, in the presence of solicitor, Mr Bowler, between 19:32hrs and 21:09hrs, police showed Jeremy a photograph of his mothers body in the Kitchen, and they asked him if he had left the bullets on the worktop nearby...
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Say what?!
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why has jb never mentioned this mike ?
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i dont suppose there is evidence of june being in the kitchen mike ?
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Hmmm, here is a picture in the picture of Jeremy´s mum, not the body of her!
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Behold another twist in the tail. This is becoming a bit like a Brian Rix farce,
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you were right abs its the pic of june on the sideboard, youre such a tinker mike ;)
and its certainly not disturbing.
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It's mike winding us up. The rascal. ;D
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It's mike winding us up. The rascal. ;D
Yeah.... He´s so silent now, how come? :P
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Really well done, abs.
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Thanks shona. I guess Mike likes pulling people´s leg, but this was not funny to me, to be honest.
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you were right abs its the pic of june on the sideboard, youre such a tinker mike ;)
and its certainly not disturbing.
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Oh, but it is disturbing...
(1) Because June Bamber was not her normal self by the evening of Tuesday, 6th August 1985, as witnessed by one of her closest friends, who made a witness statement to Essex police saying that she noticed June was not her normal self, and when I asked her what was the matter? June snapped at her and said words to the effect "you don't know what I have got to put up with"?
(2) so upset and disturbed was June Bamber, that she didn't turn up for her weekly bible class...
(3) PC Collins, claimed that he looked through the kitchen window just prior to the raid team forcing its way into the farmhouse, when he reported seeing the body of a female, who he identified at that stage as non other than "June Bamber"...
(4) At least one early news report published in one of the national newspapers, reported that Mrs June Bamber had gone berserk and killed three generations of her family...
(5) Mrs Bamber had a history of mental illness, and was capable of handling guns, etc...
(6) Police failed to take any hand swabs from June Bamber to establish whether or not, she had loaded any bullets into the gun that supposedly fired all the shots that killed everyone...
(7) the position of June Bambers photograph so close to where the box of bullets was tipped out onto the kitchen worktop, was to say the least very ominous...
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Also note...
One of June Bambers crocheted praying mantilla's, near the loose bullets, similar to the crocheted cloth in the pages of the bible photographed next to Sheila's body in the bedroom?
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I wish you wouldn't do this, Mike. Poor June. And who helped her, the action man?
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how could pc collins say that it was june he saw when he looked through the window? he didnt know what she looked like.
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How bizarre that PC Collins should say that the woman's body he saw in the kitchen, was that of June Bamber, yet there is no mention anywhere at all in any police log or transmission that the body of June Bamber had been seen at all in the kitchen - the only references were to that of a dead female body...
How did PC Collins know June Bamber before he entered the farmhouse, to arrive at the conclusion before he set foot in the house, that the female body he could see behind the kitchen door was that of June?
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how could pc collins say that it was june he saw when he looked through the window? he didnt know what she looked like.
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I will be posting the actual statement he made very soon, to confirm what I am talking about, but I agree - how would PC Collins have known what June Bamber looked like, before the police even set foot inside the kitchen?
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I wish you wouldn't do this, Mike. Poor June. And who helped her, the action man?
Bit difficult to shoot herself from a few feet away? The shot to her head apparently was not a contact shot. Also it would make nonsense of Ralph's alleged phonecall to Jeremy.
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how could pc collins say that it was june he saw when he looked through the window? he didnt know what she looked like.
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I will be posting the actual statement he made very soon, to confirm what I am talking about, but I agree - how would PC Collins have known what June Bamber looked like, before the police even set foot inside the kitchen?
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Furthermore, by 7:45am, police were confirming that two bodies had been found downstairs, one dead male and one dead female, one a murder and the other a suicide - yet clearly, June Bamber did not and could not have committed suicide, so why did PC Collins choose to say that the female body he thought he had seen in the kitchen behind the door was the body of June Bamber?
The only female body he could have seen in the kitchen behind a door was that of Sheila caffell, who the police initially thought was Sheila, who had committed suicide...
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so if this female body was june, where was sheila ?
pc collins is mistaken, sheila had her hair cut not long before the murders, he could have mistook sheila for june?
this is all getting a bit too much now, first it was sheila and now june, i still think it was sheila in the kitchen, june was found dead upstairs, and by the looks of it she had died where she fell, look at the marks on junes legs.
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How could she have shot herself so many times? It seems inconceivable really.
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June was originally shot in her bed.
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I wish you wouldn't do this, Mike. Poor June. And who helped her, the action man?
Bit difficult to shoot herself from a few feet away? The shot to her head apparently was not a contact shot. Also it would make nonsense of Ralph's alleged phonecall to Jeremy.
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The long distance shot is a good point, and highlights that June could not have committed suicide, and therefore she could not have been the female body that police reportedly found upon entry to the kitchen, which was by 7:45am, being described to all and sundry as a suicide?
However...
Jeremy did tell the police during one of his police interviews that his father may have said "She has got the gun" as opposed to "Sheila's got the gun", and if that was or is the case, Ralph's reference to "She has got the gun" could have been a reference to June Bamber, and not to Sheila Caffell?
In my opinion...
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yes but before that ralph said " sheilas gone crazy" and has got the gun.
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yes but before that ralph said " sheilas gone crazy" and has got the gun.
he didnt mention june during that call
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you were right abs its the pic of june on the sideboard, youre such a tinker mike ;)
and its certainly not disturbing.
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Oh, but it is disturbing...
(1) Because June Bamber was not her normal self by the evening of Tuesday, 6th August 1985, as witnessed by one of her closest friends, who made a witness statement to Essex police saying that she noticed June was not her normal self, and when I asked her what was the matter? June snapped at her and said words to the effect "you don't know what I have got to put up with"?
(2) so upset and disturbed was June Bamber, that she didn't turn up for her weekly bible class...
(3) PC Collins, claimed that he looked through the kitchen window just prior to the raid team forcing its way into the farmhouse, when he reported seeing the body of a female, who he identified at that stage as non other than "June Bamber"...
(4) At least one early news report published in one of the national newspapers, reported that Mrs June Bamber had gone berserk and killed three generations of her family...
(5) Mrs Bamber had a history of mental illness, and was capable of handling guns, etc...
(6) Police failed to take any hand swabs from June Bamber to establish whether or not, she had loaded any bullets into the gun that supposedly fired all the shots that killed everyone...
(7) the position of June Bambers photograph so close to where the box of bullets was tipped out onto the kitchen worktop, was to say the least very ominous...
Isn´t it the other way round? Nothing ominous about the photo of June being there - looks like something most people have in one way or another, and it looks like it had been there for a long time.
What seems ominous to me are the BULLETS being there among everyday items and kids´ toys!
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so if this female body was june, where was sheila ?
pc collins is mistaken, sheila had her hair cut not long before the murders, he could have mistook sheila for june?
this is all getting a bit too much now, first it was sheila and now june, i still think it was sheila in the kitchen, june was found dead upstairs, and by the looks of it she had died where she fell, look at the marks on junes legs.
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I agree, but the point I am trying to make is that PC Collins explanation that the female body he thought was June Bamber in the Kitchen could not possibly have been June Bamber, and if Junes body was found in the bedroom after police eventually gained entry, PC Collins would not be making a witness statement weeks later saying the female body he saw in the kitchen behind the door was June Bamber, because he would have known by that stage, or at the very least from the point he saw Junes body in the bedroom, that the female body he saw in the kitchen behind the door could not possibly have been June - so why make a statement weeks later saying it was?
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well yes its strange that he made a statement saying it was june, is the statement on here or are you uploading it mike?
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was it collins along with delgado who questioned the position of sheilas body along with the bible?
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I will admit I am very new to this forum and this case and the thought of the mother doing it did cross my mind as we all know that some fundamentalist believers in religion are capable of doing awful things under the pretense of god, The reasons I thought this was June's firm religious beliefs and the bible next to Shelia, but I really don't see this one being like that. The wounds speak for themselves in my humble opinion.
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yes but before that ralph said " sheilas gone crazy" and has got the gun.
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Ralph could have said, "She has gone crazy", and "She has got the gun", which sounds very similar to "Sheila has gone crazy" and "Sheila has got the gun" - Jeremy covers this point in one of the police interviews that I am due to post later on this evening...
What this is leading up to, is the possibility that Sheila and June may have at one stage or another during the incident both had possession of a gun each, or of the same gun, and there is a very good chance that June Bamber loaded additional bullets into one of the guns ammunition magazines, and the police failed to take hand swabs to prove that she did, or as the case may be, to establish that she did not?
Now...
"Sheila's gone crazy" - "She has gone crazy"?
"Sheila has got the gun" and "She has got the gun"?
Sheila's gone crazy" and "He has gone crazy"?
"She has gone crazy" and "He has gone crazy"?
Now, what I suggest you readers do, is read the police interviews of Jeremy that I will be posting this evening, and bear these points in mind, since, it is still possible that Ralph Told Jeremy, that "She has gone crazy" and "She has got the gun" rather than "Sheila has gone crazy" and "Sheila has got the gun", and that this could at that stage been a reference to June going crazy, and June having the gun?...
Alternatively...
Could Ralph have simply said, "He has gone crazy" and "He has got the gun?
That seems to me to be a very important point...
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well yes its strange that he made a statement saying it was june, is the statement on here or are you uploading it mike?
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I will be posting the relevant statement to facilitate debate tomorrow...
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I think that, out of what little evidence that is left, we can be sure that June was shot in her bed, sat up, looked round for Ralph (IMO) then made it as far as the door before finally being shot between her eyes.
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I will admit I am very new to this forum and this case and the thought of the mother doing it did cross my mind as we all know that some fundamentalist believers in religion are capable of doing awful things under the pretense of god, The reasons I thought this was June's firm religious beliefs and the bible next to Shelia, but I really don't see this one being like that. The wounds speak for themselves in my humble opinion.
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So, why did PC Collins make a statement weeks later saying that he reported seeing a dead female in the kitchen through the kitchen window, and at that time he thought the body was that of June Bamber?
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i think this may confuse things even more now mike.
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Is this not just one of two possibilities?:
1] When looking through the window Collins genuinely mistook the flopped forward hair of Nevill for June.
2] He's trying to play down Sheila being found downstairs, by using the above.
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I think that, out of what little evidence that is left, we can be sure that June was shot in her bed, sat up, looked round for Ralph (IMO) then made it as far as the door before finally being shot between her eyes.
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I am not so sure, its as simple as that?
There are conflicting accounts about how many times June was shot whilst she was in bed?
Some say she was shot twice there, other accounts say as many as five times?
Now...
Lets say she was shot twice in bed, or on the bed, these could have been shots fired at her after she fell back onto the bed, as a result of being wounded, when she was out of the bed - so, I don't think you can definitely say that June was in bed when the shooting started, for these reasons...
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Is this not just one of two possibilities?:
1] When looking through the window Collins genuinely mistook the flopped forward hair of Nevill for June.
2] He's trying to play down Sheila being found downstairs, by using the above.
point 2 roch, hmm interesting
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Is this not just one of two possibilities?:
1] When looking through the window Collins genuinely mistook the flopped forward hair of Nevill for June.
2] He's trying to play down Sheila being found downstairs, by using the above.
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These are good points...
However, I take issue with (1) because from the vantage point of the kitchen window, PC Collins could not possible have seen the body of Ralph Bamber sat on the wooden chair behind or in front of the internal kitchen door, because the angle is too acute, so for this reason I discount that explanation...
As for (2), I can buy into this explanation...
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mike was it collins along with delgado that questioned the position of sheilas body and the bible?
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I have always had a hard time accepting that the angle from the kitchen window was too acute. To me it looks like you could easily see the whole Aga cooker and a little more to the left of it. I may be wrong of course - just looks like that from looking at photos and floor-plans.
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Perhaps, Hartley could be persuaded to arrange for photographs to be taken, showing the actual view from the vantage point of the kitchen window, looking into the direction of the internal door, and vice versa, so that we can put this matter to bed so to speak?
I'd even volunteer to pose in the photographs myself if the relatives would invite me...
I did meet them very briefly a few years ago when I turned up at a Shareholders meeting, but I was prevented from actually being present, and had to wait in the car park at Osea road Camp site, - but the relatives got their gardener to make me a nice cup of tea whilst I waited patiently outside for my friend and colleague...
Can't see any prospects of me being invited for tea to whf, though...
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Is this not just one of two possibilities?:
1] When looking through the window Collins genuinely mistook the flopped forward hair of Nevill for June.
2] He's trying to play down Sheila being found downstairs, by using the above.
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These are good points...
However, I take issue with (1) because from the vantage point of the kitchen window, PC Collins could not possible have seen the body of Ralph Bamber sat on the wooden chair behind or in front of the internal kitchen door, because the angle is too acute, so for this reason I discount that explanation...
As for (2), I can buy into this explanation...
Kaldin got a few of us to look through our kitchen windows to see what could be seen. Acute angle left is how I looked. I had a problem with reflection on the window pane but I could make out the kitchen wall, where it met the very end of the kitchen bench.
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Perhaps, Hartley could be persuaded to arrange for photographs to be taken, showing the actual view from the vantage point of the kitchen window, looking into the direction of the internal door, and vice versa, so that we can put this matter to bed so to speak?
I'd even volunteer to pose in the photographs myself if the relatives would invite me...I did meet them very briefly a few years ago when I turned up at a Shareholders meeting, but I was prevented from actually being present, and had to wait in the car park at Osea road Camp site, - but the relatives got their gardener to make me a nice cup of tea whilst I waited patiently outside for my friend and colleague...
Can't see any prospects of me being invited for tea to whf, though...
LOL
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I have always had a hard time accepting that the angle from the kitchen window was too acute. To me it looks like you could easily see the whole Aga cooker and a little more to the left of it. I may be wrong of course - just looks like that from looking at photos and floor-plans.
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If you ever saw the TV documentary, "Killing mum and dad" you would have seen the angle I am talking about which was covered very well by the cameraman...
Impossible to have been able to see anybody sat on a wooden chair behind that internal door from the vantage point of the kitchen window (outside)?
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Is this not just one of two possibilities?:
1] When looking through the window Collins genuinely mistook the flopped forward hair of Nevill for June.
2] He's trying to play down Sheila being found downstairs, by using the above.
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These are good points...
However, I take issue with (1) because from the vantage point of the kitchen window, PC Collins could not possible have seen the body of Ralph Bamber sat on the wooden chair behind or in front of the internal kitchen door, because the angle is too acute, so for this reason I discount that explanation...
As for (2), I can buy into this explanation...
Kaldin got a few of us to look through our kitchen windows to see what could be seen. Acute angle left is how I looked. I had a problem with reflection on the window pane but I could make out the kitchen wall, where it met the very end of the kitchen bench.
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Angle would be different depending upon length of wall from window opening to corner of adjoining wall where door was / is positioned...
Anyway...
In 1990 I went to whf and looked in through the window in question and you cannot see the door that we are talking about, or enough of it for anybody to be able to say that they could see the body of a person that could have either been the body of a dead male or a dead female?
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I think that, out of what little evidence that is left, we can be sure that June was shot in her bed, sat up, looked round for Ralph (IMO) then made it as far as the door before finally being shot between her eyes.
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I am not so sure, its as simple as that?
There are conflicting accounts about how many times June was shot whilst she was in bed?
Some say she was shot twice there, other accounts say as many as five times?
Now...
Lets say she was shot twice in bed, or on the bed, these could have been shots fired at her after she fell back onto the bed, as a result of being wounded, when she was out of the bed - so, I don't think you can definitely say that June was in bed when the shooting started, for these reasons...
If June fell back, would she have fallen sideways onto her pillow? Or was she lying on it when she was shot, which, as far as I knew, has always been the theory until tonight?
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I think that, out of what little evidence that is left, we can be sure that June was shot in her bed, sat up, looked round for Ralph (IMO) then made it as far as the door before finally being shot between her eyes.
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I am not so sure, its as simple as that?
There are conflicting accounts about how many times June was shot whilst she was in bed?
Some say she was shot twice there, other accounts say as many as five times?
Now...
Lets say she was shot twice in bed, or on the bed, these could have been shots fired at her after she fell back onto the bed, as a result of being wounded, when she was out of the bed - so, I don't think you can definitely say that June was in bed when the shooting started, for these reasons...
If June fell back, would she have fallen sideways onto her pillow? Or was she lying on it when she was shot, which, as far as I knew, has always been the theory until tonight?
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AAh...
These are good points, those two bullet holes in the pillows disturb me, because I am trying to picture in my minds eye how both of these bullets could relate to June being asleep in bed?
Or were these later shots when June fell back on the bed?
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June had three exit wounds, didn't she?
Funny how only two loose bullets were found in the pillows, (DRH/35(a), and DRH/35(b), and two other loose bullets (DRH/5 and DRH/9), found elsewhere in the bedroom?
IF JUNE ONLY HAD THREE EXIT WOUNDS, AND RALPH HAD NONE, AND SHEILA HAD NONE, WHERE DID THE ADDITIONAL LOOSE BULLET IN THE MAIN BEDROOM COME FROM?
Ballistics and logistics don't seem to add up in my opinion...
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Sometimes I think that you move the goal posts, Mike. It's clear to me that June was shot while lying down, then sat up, (more blood on the bed) then tried to make her way to the door.
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June had three exit wounds, didn't she?
Funny how only two loose bullets were found in the pillows, (DRH/35(a), and DRH/35(b), and two other loose bullets (DRH/5 and DRH/9), found elsewhere in the bedroom?
Ballistics and logistics don't seem to add up in my opinion...
Not to mention the bullet weights and wound sizes. It's a right bloody puzzle this incident isn't it? Terrifying as well. Imagine being part of it when it was happening?
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Sometimes I think that you move the goal posts, Mike. It's clear to me that June was shot while lying down, then sat up, (more blood on the bed) then tried to make her way to the door.
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I take it that you don't like it when somebody like me moves the goalposts, but imagine how someone like Jeremy feels when Essex police did it to him?
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Is this not just one of two possibilities?:
1] When looking through the window Collins genuinely mistook the flopped forward hair of Nevill for June.
2] He's trying to play down Sheila being found downstairs, by using the above.
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These are good points...
However, I take issue with (1) because from the vantage point of the kitchen window, PC Collins could not possible have seen the body of Ralph Bamber sat on the wooden chair behind or in front of the internal kitchen door, because the angle is too acute, so for this reason I discount that explanation...
As for (2), I can buy into this explanation...
Kaldin got a few of us to look through our kitchen windows to see what could be seen. Acute angle left is how I looked. I had a problem with reflection on the window pane but I could make out the kitchen wall, where it met the very end of the kitchen bench.
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Angle would be different depending upon length of wall from window opening to corner of adjoining wall where door was / is positioned...
Anyway...
In 1990 I went to whf and looked in through the window in question and you cannot see the door that we are talking about, or enough of it for anybody to be able to say that they could see the body of a person that could have either been the body of a dead male or a dead female?
He´s not behind/in front of the door.
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Why did one of the national newspapers lead with the suggestion that June Bamber had shot and killed four other members of her family?
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And, to go off topic a bit...something that Grahame posted has made me think. To me, Sheila's left arm shows signs of livor mortis, yet her right arm must have still been pliable enough to have been moved at the wrist and elbow. That arm was higher, and resting on the warmth of her abdomen. Need some serious medical knowledge here, but could that have delayed rigor mortis in that arm slightly longer than the rest of her body?
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Is this not just one of two possibilities?:
1] When looking through the window Collins genuinely mistook the flopped forward hair of Nevill for June.
2] He's trying to play down Sheila being found downstairs, by using the above.
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These are good points...
However, I take issue with (1) because from the vantage point of the kitchen window, PC Collins could not possible have seen the body of Ralph Bamber sat on the wooden chair behind or in front of the internal kitchen door, because the angle is too acute, so for this reason I discount that explanation...
As for (2), I can buy into this explanation...
Kaldin got a few of us to look through our kitchen windows to see what could be seen. Acute angle left is how I looked. I had a problem with reflection on the window pane but I could make out the kitchen wall, where it met the very end of the kitchen bench.
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Angle would be different depending upon length of wall from window opening to corner of adjoining wall where door was / is positioned...
Anyway...
In 1990 I went to whf and looked in through the window in question and you cannot see the door that we are talking about, or enough of it for anybody to be able to say that they could see the body of a person that could have either been the body of a dead male or a dead female?
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I am glad you posted this picture, because the police said and say that no-one moved or touched anything at the scene, until after PC Bird completed the taking of all his crime scene pictures, but if that was / is the case, how did the police manage to get inside the kitchen in the first pace if that wooden chair was there propped up against the internal door through which all the armed police forced their way into the kitchen in order to discover the two bodies?
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Sometimes I think that you move the goal posts, Mike. It's clear to me that June was shot while lying down, then sat up, (more blood on the bed) then tried to make her way to the door.
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I take it that you don't like it when somebody like me moves the goalposts, but imagine how someone like Jeremy feels when Essex police did it to him?
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I worry when it's you, Mike, because I have faith in you. There's not a fat lot I can do about Essex Police.
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Scene in region of kitchen was stage managed by the police before PC Bird started to take his crime scene pictures - no doubt about that fact at all...
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Sometimes I think that you move the goal posts, Mike. It's clear to me that June was shot while lying down, then sat up, (more blood on the bed) then tried to make her way to the door.
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I take it that you don't like it when somebody like me moves the goalposts, but imagine how someone like Jeremy feels when Essex police did it to him?
[/quot
I worry when it's you, Mike, because I have faith in you. There's not a fat lot I can do about Essex Police.
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Please bear with me, I am only trying to stimulate and facilitate debate...
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Right...
I'm off to upload the interviews with Essex police on the other thread - why not take a look and form your views and opinions, and share your ideas and thoughts on them?
Bye...
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Can we please look again at the image of Ralph? Who placed him like that, stiff with rigor mortis? Certainly not Sheila. Mike, did you not think that Ralph died slumped in a chair, just inside the door? And the stuff placed around the aga scuttle proves that blood must have flowed from Ralph's head, although he had been dead for some time. So could Sheila's neck have bled sometime after death, when she was moved?
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Can we please look again at the image of Ralph? Who placed him like that, stiff with rigor mortis? Certainly not Sheila. Mike, did you not think that Ralph died slumped in a chair, just inside the door? And the stuff placed around the aga scuttle proves that blood must have flowed from Ralph's head, although he had been dead for some time. So could Sheila's neck have bled sometime after death, when she was moved?
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Exactly...
which proves that police stage managed her body and moved it in time for PC Bird to photograph it...
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There has never been any doubt that parts of Sheila's body (at least) had been moved. Abs has posted clear images of that. But, to me, Ralph is key. The extreme violence, the bizarre placing of his body (why?) and the phone call. Those bloodied fingerprints on the edge of the kitchen surface say to me that Ralph did try to use the phone. But I don't think that he did.
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There has never been any doubt that parts of Sheila's body (at least) had been moved. Abs has posted clear images of that. But, to me, Ralph is key. The extreme violence, the bizarre placing of his body (why?) and the phone call. Those bloodied fingerprints on the edge of the kitchen surface say to me that Ralph did try to use the phone. But I don't think that he did.
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The phone off the hook in the Kitchen could be a red herring - it is highly likely that if Ralph used a phone at all, that he used the one in the upstairs office...
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We need Hartley for this. Wasn't the connecting door locked?
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I will go through the statements again,but in one of them it was suggested by EP that the blood on Shiela's nightdress matched the blood on the butt of the gun.
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In Jeremy's statement,he says the police told him his father died "in" his favourite chair.Jones doesn't deny this.I believe Mike when he says that Ralphs body was slumped "in" his chair behind the door,and that he became displaced when the door was forced.I believe that EP put Nevill in the position in which the photographs show.Being tipped out of the chair and hitting the floor seems to have caused blood to flow again.I really do think that EP placed Nevills head in the scuttle,and the cushions around it to control the blood flow.But why not be honest about it?How does anyone know what the scuttle and those cushions are hiding?Maybe nothing,but we will never know!
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In Jeremy's statement,he says the police told him his father died "in" his favourite chair.Jones doesn't deny this.I believe Mike when he says that Ralphs body was slumped "in" his chair behind the door,and that he became displaced when the door was forced.I believe that EP put Nevill in the position in which the photographs show.Being tipped out of the chair and hitting the floor seems to have caused blood to flow again.I really do think that EP placed Nevills head in the scuttle,and the cushions around it to control the blood flow.But why not be honest about it?How does anyone know what the scuttle and those cushions are hiding?Maybe nothing,but we will never know!
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You are on to it....
This is what really did happen, so why have the police lied about it through their teeth?
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Hang on, Mike, I'm getting lost here. On the "if no one disturbed anything" thread, you're saying that it was a female body behind the door. Are you? I've wondered a few times whether police saw Ralph's hair flopped forward and mistook his body for a female's. But are you now saying that it was Sheila behind the door?
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Hang on, Mike, I'm getting lost here. On the "if no one disturbed anything" thread, you're saying that it was a female body behind the door. Are you? I've wondered a few times whether police saw Ralph's hair flopped forward and mistook his body for a female's. But are you now saying that it was Sheila behind the door?
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If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that door through which the police forced the way into the kitchen, nobody would have been able to see sufficient of him to mistakenly identify his body as that of a female, its as simple as that - I went to whf in the summer of 1990, after I was released on bail pending my appeal, and I went there to look through the kitchen window to see what could be seen, and you simply could not see anyone who might have been sat on a chair in that position, so any suggestion that police could have mistaken Ralph for a dead female is out of the window so to speak - what those who think Bamber is guilty need to do, is produce two photographs, one showing the view from the vantage point of looking into the kitchen into the direction of the door we are speaking about, and a second photograph looking back towards the Kitchen window from the vantage point of someone sat in a chair behind that door - they will not be able to do that because the angle is too acute...
If they saw Ralph on a chair behind that door, the police would not have chosen that route to get into the Kitchen, its as simple as that because they would not want to disturb the scene...
Another thing, from the vantage point of PC Collins looking into the kitchen and seeing a body sat in the chair in front of the internal door, would not be described as being a body behind the door, but in front of the door, in my opinion, as viewed, from PC Collins position...
I am not suggesting at all, that Sheila's body was sat on that chair in front of the internal kitchen door where Ralph was sat - I believe that Sheila was seen behind one of the other doors that PC Collins had a view of, in particular the door which lead into the pantry or back kitchen. This door would be directly opposite the kitchen window through which PC Collins was looking at the time of his sighting of the female body...
The female body was inside that room behind that partially open/ closed door...
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Hang on, Mike, I'm getting lost here. On the "if no one disturbed anything" thread, you're saying that it was a female body behind the door. Are you? I've wondered a few times whether police saw Ralph's hair flopped forward and mistook his body for a female's. But are you now saying that it was Sheila behind the door?
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If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that door through which the police forced the way into the kitchen, nobody would have been able to see sufficient of him to mistakenly identify his body as that of a female, its as simple as that - I went to whf in the summer of 1990, after I was released on bail pending my appeal, and I went there to look through the kitchen window to see what could be seen, and you simply could not see anyone who might have been sat on a chair in that position, so any suggestion that police could have mistaken Ralph for a dead female is out of the window so to speak - what those who think Bamber is guilty need to do, is produce two photographs, one showing the view from the vantage point of looking into the kitchen into the direction of the door we are speaking about, and a second photograph looking back towards the Kitchen window from the vantage point of someone sat in a chair behind that door - they will not be able to do that because the angle is too acute...
If they saw Ralph on a chair behind that door, the police would not have chosen that route to get into the Kitchen, its as simple as that because they would not want to disturb the scene...
Another thing, from the vantage point of PC Collins looking into the kitchen and seeing a body sat in the chair in front of the internal door, would not be described as being a body behind the door, but in front of the door, in my opinion, as viewed, from PC Collins position...
I am not suggesting at all, that Sheila's body was sat on that chair in front of the internal kitchen door where Ralph was sat - I believe that Sheila was seen behind one of the other doors that PC Collins had a view of, in particular the door which lead into the pantry or back kitchen. This door would be directly opposite the kitchen window through which PC Collins was looking at the time of his sighting of the female body...
The female body was inside that room behind that partially open/ closed door...
Was ' The Jury ' taken to WHF ?
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Hang on, Mike, I'm getting lost here. On the "if no one disturbed anything" thread, you're saying that it was a female body behind the door. Are you? I've wondered a few times whether police saw Ralph's hair flopped forward and mistook his body for a female's. But are you now saying that it was Sheila behind the door?
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If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that door through which the police forced the way into the kitchen, nobody would have been able to see sufficient of him to mistakenly identify his body as that of a female, its as simple as that - I went to whf in the summer of 1990, after I was released on bail pending my appeal, and I went there to look through the kitchen window to see what could be seen, and you simply could not see anyone who might have been sat on a chair in that position, so any suggestion that police could have mistaken Ralph for a dead female is out of the window so to speak - what those who think Bamber is guilty need to do, is produce two photographs, one showing the view from the vantage point of looking into the kitchen into the direction of the door we are speaking about, and a second photograph looking back towards the Kitchen window from the vantage point of someone sat in a chair behind that door - they will not be able to do that because the angle is too acute...
If they saw Ralph on a chair behind that door, the police would not have chosen that route to get into the Kitchen, its as simple as that because they would not want to disturb the scene...
Another thing, from the vantage point of PC Collins looking into the kitchen and seeing a body sat in the chair in front of the internal door, would not be described as being a body behind the door, but in front of the door, in my opinion, as viewed, from PC Collins position...
I am not suggesting at all, that Sheila's body was sat on that chair in front of the internal kitchen door where Ralph was sat - I believe that Sheila was seen behind one of the other doors that PC Collins had a view of, in particular the door which lead into the pantry or back kitchen. This door would be directly opposite the kitchen window through which PC Collins was looking at the time of his sighting of the female body...
The female body was inside that room behind that partially open/ closed door...
Was ' The Jury ' taken to WHF ?
I do not believe they were. Mike should be able to correct me if I am wrong on this.
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Hang on, Mike, I'm getting lost here. On the "if no one disturbed anything" thread, you're saying that it was a female body behind the door. Are you? I've wondered a few times whether police saw Ralph's hair flopped forward and mistook his body for a female's. But are you now saying that it was Sheila behind the door?
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If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that door through which the police forced the way into the kitchen, nobody would have been able to see sufficient of him to mistakenly identify his body as that of a female, its as simple as that - I went to whf in the summer of 1990, after I was released on bail pending my appeal, and I went there to look through the kitchen window to see what could be seen, and you simply could not see anyone who might have been sat on a chair in that position, so any suggestion that police could have mistaken Ralph for a dead female is out of the window so to speak - what those who think Bamber is guilty need to do, is produce two photographs, one showing the view from the vantage point of looking into the kitchen into the direction of the door we are speaking about, and a second photograph looking back towards the Kitchen window from the vantage point of someone sat in a chair behind that door - they will not be able to do that because the angle is too acute...
If they saw Ralph on a chair behind that door, the police would not have chosen that route to get into the Kitchen, its as simple as that because they would not want to disturb the scene...
Another thing, from the vantage point of PC Collins looking into the kitchen and seeing a body sat in the chair in front of the internal door, would not be described as being a body behind the door, but in front of the door, in my opinion, as viewed, from PC Collins position...
I am not suggesting at all, that Sheila's body was sat on that chair in front of the internal kitchen door where Ralph was sat - I believe that Sheila was seen behind one of the other doors that PC Collins had a view of, in particular the door which lead into the pantry or back kitchen. This door would be directly opposite the kitchen window through which PC Collins was looking at the time of his sighting of the female body...
The female body was inside that room behind that partially open/ closed door...
Was ' The Jury ' taken to WHF ?
I do not believe they were. Mike should be able to correct me if I am wrong on this.
Do you think the defence team would have went prior to trial ? It would be the norm to do so wouldn't it ?
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Hang on, Mike, I'm getting lost here. On the "if no one disturbed anything" thread, you're saying that it was a female body behind the door. Are you? I've wondered a few times whether police saw Ralph's hair flopped forward and mistook his body for a female's. But are you now saying that it was Sheila behind the door?
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If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that door through which the police forced the way into the kitchen, nobody would have been able to see sufficient of him to mistakenly identify his body as that of a female, its as simple as that - I went to whf in the summer of 1990, after I was released on bail pending my appeal, and I went there to look through the kitchen window to see what could be seen, and you simply could not see anyone who might have been sat on a chair in that position, so any suggestion that police could have mistaken Ralph for a dead female is out of the window so to speak - what those who think Bamber is guilty need to do, is produce two photographs, one showing the view from the vantage point of looking into the kitchen into the direction of the door we are speaking about, and a second photograph looking back towards the Kitchen window from the vantage point of someone sat in a chair behind that door - they will not be able to do that because the angle is too acute...
If they saw Ralph on a chair behind that door, the police would not have chosen that route to get into the Kitchen, its as simple as that because they would not want to disturb the scene...
Another thing, from the vantage point of PC Collins looking into the kitchen and seeing a body sat in the chair in front of the internal door, would not be described as being a body behind the door, but in front of the door, in my opinion, as viewed, from PC Collins position...
I am not suggesting at all, that Sheila's body was sat on that chair in front of the internal kitchen door where Ralph was sat - I believe that Sheila was seen behind one of the other doors that PC Collins had a view of, in particular the door which lead into the pantry or back kitchen. This door would be directly opposite the kitchen window through which PC Collins was looking at the time of his sighting of the female body...
The female body was inside that room behind that partially open/ closed door...
Was ' The Jury ' taken to WHF ?
I do not believe they were. Mike should be able to correct me if I am wrong on this.
Do you think the defence team would have went prior to trial ? It would be the norm to do so wouldn't it ?
They may have done but I have no knowledge of whether they did. Visits to the "locus" of a crime in my experience happen only in a minority of cases, whether by the defence team before trial or by the entire court during the trial. I am surprised it is not done more often because it in many cases it assists in understanding the evidence. I imagine it would have been very useful in this case.
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The more information that comes out, the more confused I get! I'm assuming when the police got to WHF, Jeremy would have told them who was in the house. I was going to suggest that maybe the officer saw a female body and got confused as to who was Sheila and who was June as they'd obviously never met before. Mike mentions that the officer also refers to the body being June's in a statement a few weeks later so that would rule that out I suppose.
Also why do we think Jeremy says "its a picture of my mum" - is he merely pointing out that her picture is in the background? I don't really understand why he said that to be honest
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I have always had a hard time accepting that the angle from the kitchen window was too acute. To me it looks like you could easily see the whole Aga cooker and a little more to the left of it. I may be wrong of course - just looks like that from looking at photos and floor-plans.
You can see half of the internal door from the window.
It's kind of irrelevant though, because Nevill was found tumbled out of a chair some three or four feet away from that door and not right in the corner.
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I have always had a hard time accepting that the angle from the kitchen window was too acute. To me it looks like you could easily see the whole Aga cooker and a little more to the left of it. I may be wrong of course - just looks like that from looking at photos and floor-plans.
You can see half of the internal door from the window.
It's kind of irrelevant though, because Nevill was found tumbled out of a chair some three or four feet away from that door and not right in the corner.
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So...
Why did PS Woodcock alter his statement at the point where police actually entered the Kitchen?
Why is it that he used a completely different typewriter to type out the details of what he found once the police actually got into the Kitchen, beyond that internal kitchen door?
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No idea, I would guess that he didn't use a typewriter at all.
2+2 doesn't always equal 5, however much you might want it to.
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I have always had a hard time accepting that the angle from the kitchen window was too acute. To me it looks like you could easily see the whole Aga cooker and a little more to the left of it. I may be wrong of course - just looks like that from looking at photos and floor-plans.
You can see half of the internal door from the window.
It's kind of irrelevant though, because Nevill was found tumbled out of a chair some three or four feet away from that door and not right in the corner.
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So...
Why did PS Woodcock alter his statement at the point where police actually entered the Kitchen?
Why is it that he used a completely different typewriter to type out the details of what he found once the police actually got into the Kitchen, beyond that internal kitchen door?
Perhaps he was crap ay handwriting?
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Have you thought about one of the twins committing the murders? I understand one of the poor lads was found still sucking his thumb; he could have been trying to remove gun shot residue when the other twin shot him then committed suicide by shooting himself numerous times?
(No I am NOT making a nasty joke; this proposition is about as realistic as June having committed the murders! You do the Bamber is innocent campaign no favours by even discussing this; he wreaks of we love Jeremy so anybody BUT Jeremy.)
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Have you thought about one of the twins committing the murders? I understand one of the poor lads was found still sucking his thumb; he could have been trying to remove gun shot residue when the other twin shot him then committed suicide by shooting himself numerous times?
(No I am NOT making a nasty joke; this proposition is about as realistic as June having committed the murders! You do the Bamber is innocent campaign no favours by even discussing this; he wreaks of we love Jeremy so anybody BUT Jeremy.)
Weren't you going away for a few days? ::)
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Have you thought about one of the twins committing the murders? I understand one of the poor lads was found still sucking his thumb; he could have been trying to remove gun shot residue when the other twin shot him then committed suicide by shooting himself numerous times?
(No I am NOT making a nasty joke; this proposition is about as realistic as June having committed the murders! You do the Bamber is innocent campaign no favours by even discussing this; he wreaks of we love Jeremy so anybody BUT Jeremy.)
I don't think anyone here is seriously entertaining the fact that June may have done it. Or at least i'm not. We're just discussing yet more inconsistencies. That is what we're here for after all.
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Have you thought about one of the twins committing the murders? I understand one of the poor lads was found still sucking his thumb; he could have been trying to remove gun shot residue when the other twin shot him then committed suicide by shooting himself numerous times?
(No I am NOT making a nasty joke; this proposition is about as realistic as June having committed the murders! You do the Bamber is innocent campaign no favours by even discussing this; he wreaks of we love Jeremy so anybody BUT Jeremy.)
I don't think anyone here is seriously entertaining the fact that June may have done it. Or at least i'm not. We're just discussing yet more inconsistencies. That is what we're here for after all.
The poster DrPal (similar stance to PB) once suggested that it may have been Crispy.
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Rochford is a Hero Member .... I wanna be a Hero Member; s'not bloody fair.
I s'pose I have a couple of decades before Bamber dies in prison to attain my goal!
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Rochford is a Hero Member .... I wanna be a Hero Member; s'not bloody fair.
I s'pose I have a couple of decades before Bamber dies in prison to attain my goal!
Must just be a name given to this particular forum software. I was going to close my account a while back and start from scratch as a newbie but then the mods thing happened, so I couldn't.
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Rochford is a Hero Member .... I wanna be a Hero Member; s'not bloody fair.
I s'pose I have a couple of decades before Bamber dies in prison to attain my goal!
Life is strange. Have you ever thought that you may die first? Heaven forbid though. But seriously any of us could go before Bamber. I might go whilst drinking my coco? Much prefer coffee with a dash of Irish Cream.
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Rochford is a Hero Member .... I wanna be a Hero Member; s'not bloody fair.
I s'pose I have a couple of decades before Bamber dies in prison to attain my goal!
It always get the chills when I hear people express that they wish death upon others - no matter whom it is they wish death on. I find it very primitive and very appalling. Had to say that.