Disturbing new Evidence - police show Jeremy photo' of mothers body in kitchen

[shonapugs]

Can we please look again at the image of Ralph? Who placed him like that, stiff with rigor mortis? Certainly not Sheila. Mike, did you not think that Ralph died slumped in a chair, just inside the door? And the stuff placed around the aga scuttle proves that blood must have flowed from Ralph's head, although he had been dead for some time. So could Sheila's neck have bled sometime after death, when she was moved?

[mike tesko]

Can we please look again at the image of Ralph? Who placed him like that, stiff with rigor mortis? Certainly not Sheila. Mike, did you not think that Ralph died slumped in a chair, just inside the door? And the stuff placed around the aga scuttle proves that blood must have flowed from Ralph's head, although he had been dead for some time. So could Sheila's neck have bled sometime after death, when she was moved?

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Exactly...

which proves that police stage managed her body and moved it in time for PC Bird to photograph it...

[shonapugs]

There has never been any doubt that parts of Sheila's body (at least) had been moved. Abs has posted clear images of that. But, to me, Ralph is key. The extreme violence, the bizarre placing of his body (why?) and the phone call. Those bloodied fingerprints on the edge of the kitchen surface say to me that Ralph did try to use the phone. But I don't think that he did.

[mike tesko]

There has never been any doubt that parts of Sheila's body (at least) had been moved. Abs has posted clear images of that. But, to me, Ralph is key. The extreme violence, the bizarre placing of his body (why?) and the phone call. Those bloodied fingerprints on the edge of the kitchen surface say to me that Ralph did try to use the phone. But I don't think that he did.

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The phone off the hook in the Kitchen could be a red herring - it is highly likely that if Ralph used a phone at all, that he used the one in the upstairs office...

[shonapugs]

We need Hartley for this. Wasn't the connecting door locked?

[clifford]

I will go through the statements again,but in one of them it was suggested by EP that the blood on Shiela's nightdress matched the blood on the butt of the gun.

[tyler]

In Jeremy's statement,he says the police told him his father died "in" his favourite chair.Jones doesn't deny this.I believe Mike when he says that Ralphs body was slumped "in" his chair behind the door,and that he became displaced when the door was forced.I believe that EP put Nevill in the position in which the photographs show.Being tipped out of the chair and hitting the floor seems to have caused blood to flow again.I really do think that EP placed Nevills head in the scuttle,and the cushions around it to control the blood flow.But why not be honest about it?How does anyone know what the scuttle and those cushions are hiding?Maybe nothing,but we will never know!

[mike tesko]

In Jeremy's statement,he says the police told him his father died "in" his favourite chair.Jones doesn't deny this.I believe Mike when he says that Ralphs body was slumped "in" his chair behind the door,and that he became displaced when the door was forced.I believe that EP put Nevill in the position in which the photographs show.Being tipped out of the chair and hitting the floor seems to have caused blood to flow again.I really do think that EP placed Nevills head in the scuttle,and the cushions around it to control the blood flow.But why not be honest about it?How does anyone know what the scuttle and those cushions are hiding?Maybe nothing,but we will never know!

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You are on to it....

This is what really did happen, so why have the police lied about it through their teeth?

[shonapugs]

Hang on, Mike, I'm getting lost here. On the "if no one disturbed anything" thread, you're saying that  it was a female body behind the door. Are you? I've wondered a few times whether  police saw Ralph's hair flopped forward and mistook his body for a female's. But are you now saying that it was Sheila behind the door?

[mike tesko]

Hang on, Mike, I'm getting lost here. On the "if no one disturbed anything" thread, you're saying that  it was a female body behind the door. Are you? I've wondered a few times whether  police saw Ralph's hair flopped forward and mistook his body for a female's. But are you now saying that it was Sheila behind the door?

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If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that door through which the police forced the way into the kitchen, nobody would have been able to see sufficient of him to mistakenly identify his body as that of a female, its as simple as that - I went to whf in the summer of 1990, after I was released on bail pending my appeal, and I went there to look through the kitchen window to see what could be seen, and you simply could not see anyone who might have been sat on a chair in that position, so any suggestion that police could have mistaken Ralph for a dead female is out of the window so to speak - what those who think Bamber is guilty need to do, is produce two photographs, one showing the view from the vantage point of looking into the kitchen into the direction of the door we are speaking about, and a second photograph looking back towards the Kitchen window from the vantage point of someone sat in a chair behind that door - they will not be able to do that because the angle is too acute...

If they saw Ralph on a chair behind that door, the police would not have chosen that route to get into the Kitchen, its as simple as that because they would not want to disturb the scene...

Another thing, from the vantage point of PC Collins looking into the kitchen and seeing a body sat in the chair in front of the internal door, would not be described as being a body behind the door, but in front of the door, in my opinion, as viewed, from PC Collins position...

I am not suggesting at all, that Sheila's body was sat on that chair in front of the internal kitchen door where Ralph was sat - I believe that Sheila was seen behind one of the other doors that PC Collins had a view of, in particular the door which lead into the pantry or back kitchen. This door would be directly opposite the kitchen window through which PC Collins was looking at the time of his sighting of the female body...

The female body was inside that room behind that partially open/ closed door...

[jon]

Hang on, Mike, I'm getting lost here. On the "if no one disturbed anything" thread, you're saying that  it was a female body behind the door. Are you? I've wondered a few times whether  police saw Ralph's hair flopped forward and mistook his body for a female's. But are you now saying that it was Sheila behind the door?

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If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that door through which the police forced the way into the kitchen, nobody would have been able to see sufficient of him to mistakenly identify his body as that of a female, its as simple as that - I went to whf in the summer of 1990, after I was released on bail pending my appeal, and I went there to look through the kitchen window to see what could be seen, and you simply could not see anyone who might have been sat on a chair in that position, so any suggestion that police could have mistaken Ralph for a dead female is out of the window so to speak - what those who think Bamber is guilty need to do, is produce two photographs, one showing the view from the vantage point of looking into the kitchen into the direction of the door we are speaking about, and a second photograph looking back towards the Kitchen window from the vantage point of someone sat in a chair behind that door - they will not be able to do that because the angle is too acute...

If they saw Ralph on a chair behind that door, the police would not have chosen that route to get into the Kitchen, its as simple as that because they would not want to disturb the scene...

Another thing, from the vantage point of PC Collins looking into the kitchen and seeing a body sat in the chair in front of the internal door, would not be described as being a body behind the door, but in front of the door, in my opinion, as viewed, from PC Collins position...

I am not suggesting at all, that Sheila's body was sat on that chair in front of the internal kitchen door where Ralph was sat - I believe that Sheila was seen behind one of the other doors that PC Collins had a view of, in particular the door which lead into the pantry or back kitchen. This door would be directly opposite the kitchen window through which PC Collins was looking at the time of his sighting of the female body...

The female body was inside that room behind that partially open/ closed door...

Was ' The Jury ' taken to WHF ?

[ngb1066]

Hang on, Mike, I'm getting lost here. On the "if no one disturbed anything" thread, you're saying that  it was a female body behind the door. Are you? I've wondered a few times whether  police saw Ralph's hair flopped forward and mistook his body for a female's. But are you now saying that it was Sheila behind the door?

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If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that door through which the police forced the way into the kitchen, nobody would have been able to see sufficient of him to mistakenly identify his body as that of a female, its as simple as that - I went to whf in the summer of 1990, after I was released on bail pending my appeal, and I went there to look through the kitchen window to see what could be seen, and you simply could not see anyone who might have been sat on a chair in that position, so any suggestion that police could have mistaken Ralph for a dead female is out of the window so to speak - what those who think Bamber is guilty need to do, is produce two photographs, one showing the view from the vantage point of looking into the kitchen into the direction of the door we are speaking about, and a second photograph looking back towards the Kitchen window from the vantage point of someone sat in a chair behind that door - they will not be able to do that because the angle is too acute...

If they saw Ralph on a chair behind that door, the police would not have chosen that route to get into the Kitchen, its as simple as that because they would not want to disturb the scene...

Another thing, from the vantage point of PC Collins looking into the kitchen and seeing a body sat in the chair in front of the internal door, would not be described as being a body behind the door, but in front of the door, in my opinion, as viewed, from PC Collins position...

I am not suggesting at all, that Sheila's body was sat on that chair in front of the internal kitchen door where Ralph was sat - I believe that Sheila was seen behind one of the other doors that PC Collins had a view of, in particular the door which lead into the pantry or back kitchen. This door would be directly opposite the kitchen window through which PC Collins was looking at the time of his sighting of the female body...

The female body was inside that room behind that partially open/ closed door...

Was ' The Jury ' taken to WHF ?

I do not believe they were.  Mike should be able to correct me if I am wrong on this.

[jon]

Hang on, Mike, I'm getting lost here. On the "if no one disturbed anything" thread, you're saying that  it was a female body behind the door. Are you? I've wondered a few times whether  police saw Ralph's hair flopped forward and mistook his body for a female's. But are you now saying that it was Sheila behind the door?

--------------

If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that door through which the police forced the way into the kitchen, nobody would have been able to see sufficient of him to mistakenly identify his body as that of a female, its as simple as that - I went to whf in the summer of 1990, after I was released on bail pending my appeal, and I went there to look through the kitchen window to see what could be seen, and you simply could not see anyone who might have been sat on a chair in that position, so any suggestion that police could have mistaken Ralph for a dead female is out of the window so to speak - what those who think Bamber is guilty need to do, is produce two photographs, one showing the view from the vantage point of looking into the kitchen into the direction of the door we are speaking about, and a second photograph looking back towards the Kitchen window from the vantage point of someone sat in a chair behind that door - they will not be able to do that because the angle is too acute...

If they saw Ralph on a chair behind that door, the police would not have chosen that route to get into the Kitchen, its as simple as that because they would not want to disturb the scene...

Another thing, from the vantage point of PC Collins looking into the kitchen and seeing a body sat in the chair in front of the internal door, would not be described as being a body behind the door, but in front of the door, in my opinion, as viewed, from PC Collins position...

I am not suggesting at all, that Sheila's body was sat on that chair in front of the internal kitchen door where Ralph was sat - I believe that Sheila was seen behind one of the other doors that PC Collins had a view of, in particular the door which lead into the pantry or back kitchen. This door would be directly opposite the kitchen window through which PC Collins was looking at the time of his sighting of the female body...

The female body was inside that room behind that partially open/ closed door...

Was ' The Jury ' taken to WHF ?

I do not believe they were.  Mike should be able to correct me if I am wrong on this.

Do you think the defence team would have went prior to trial ? It would be the norm to do so wouldn't it ?

[ngb1066]

Hang on, Mike, I'm getting lost here. On the "if no one disturbed anything" thread, you're saying that  it was a female body behind the door. Are you? I've wondered a few times whether  police saw Ralph's hair flopped forward and mistook his body for a female's. But are you now saying that it was Sheila behind the door?

--------------

If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that door through which the police forced the way into the kitchen, nobody would have been able to see sufficient of him to mistakenly identify his body as that of a female, its as simple as that - I went to whf in the summer of 1990, after I was released on bail pending my appeal, and I went there to look through the kitchen window to see what could be seen, and you simply could not see anyone who might have been sat on a chair in that position, so any suggestion that police could have mistaken Ralph for a dead female is out of the window so to speak - what those who think Bamber is guilty need to do, is produce two photographs, one showing the view from the vantage point of looking into the kitchen into the direction of the door we are speaking about, and a second photograph looking back towards the Kitchen window from the vantage point of someone sat in a chair behind that door - they will not be able to do that because the angle is too acute...

If they saw Ralph on a chair behind that door, the police would not have chosen that route to get into the Kitchen, its as simple as that because they would not want to disturb the scene...

Another thing, from the vantage point of PC Collins looking into the kitchen and seeing a body sat in the chair in front of the internal door, would not be described as being a body behind the door, but in front of the door, in my opinion, as viewed, from PC Collins position...

I am not suggesting at all, that Sheila's body was sat on that chair in front of the internal kitchen door where Ralph was sat - I believe that Sheila was seen behind one of the other doors that PC Collins had a view of, in particular the door which lead into the pantry or back kitchen. This door would be directly opposite the kitchen window through which PC Collins was looking at the time of his sighting of the female body...

The female body was inside that room behind that partially open/ closed door...

Was ' The Jury ' taken to WHF ?

I do not believe they were.  Mike should be able to correct me if I am wrong on this.

Do you think the defence team would have went prior to trial ? It would be the norm to do so wouldn't it ?

They may have done but I have no knowledge of whether they did.  Visits to the "locus" of a crime in my experience happen only in a minority of cases, whether by the defence team before trial or by the entire court during the trial.  I am surprised it is not done more often because it in many cases it assists in understanding the evidence.  I imagine it would have been very useful in this case.



 

[sc82]

The more information that comes out, the more confused I get! I'm assuming when the police got to WHF, Jeremy would have told them who was in the house. I was going to suggest that maybe the officer saw a female body and got confused as to who was Sheila and who was June as they'd obviously never met before. Mike mentions that the officer also refers to the body being June's in a statement a few weeks later so that would rule that out I suppose.

Also why do we think Jeremy says "its a picture of my mum" - is he merely pointing out that her picture is in the background? I don't really understand why he said that to be honest