Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on January 13, 2022, 12:44:PM
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Bamber enters bedroom around 2am - Undisputed.
Nevill and June are in their bed attire - Undisputed.
Nevill and June are in bed asleep - Undisputed.
Bamber opens fire from June's side of the bed - Undisputed.
June is shot 5 times in bed - Undisputed.
Nevill wakes as June is being shot & starts to get out of bed - Undisputed.
Bamber fires two close range shots into Nevill's face as he is getting out of bed - Undisputed.
Nevill stands up & moves away from the bed - Undisputed.
Bamber shoots Nevill twice in the torso from feet away - Undisputed.
Nevill exits the main bedroom - Undisputed.
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This is what the evidence shows.
QC is entitled to dispute this. However must do better than claim Nevill would fight Bamber upstairs. He has Nevill as a bumbling weak figure in his Sheila scenario, ringing Bamber's AM.
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Nevill would have been dog tired, I know that much. Anyone who worked as hard as he'd done, at his age would have been all in and certainly in no mood to have defended himself from anyone----even a woman !
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Nevill would have been dog tired, I know that much. Anyone who worked as hard as he'd done, at his age would have been all in and certainly in no mood to have defended himself from anyone----even a woman !
Agree with that.
At his age after a long day on the farm he will need a good nights sleep. In his bed.
Espescially as he was going to have to do the same work tomorrow.
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Agree with that.
At his age after a long day on the farm he will need a good nights sleep. In his bed.
Espescially as he was going to have to do the same work tomorrow.
He didn't get as far as his bed ! It's obvious that he'd only just managed to get his pyjamas on downstairs after his shower.
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He didn't get as far as his bed ! It's obvious that he'd only just managed to get his pyjamas on downstairs after his shower.
The undisputed evidence is he was shot 4 times in his bedroom. As stated in the thread post.
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The undisputed evidence is he was shot 4 times in his bedroom. As stated in the thread post.
Unless this was known for sure, nobody can say can they ? Was anyone there to say this was what happened ? I think not.
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Your first two posts contradict each other, if QC disputes it then it can’t be undisputed. The defence certainly dispute it as they say it wasn’t Jeremy that carried out the Murders!
Or is it just undisputed by you?
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Your first two posts contradict each other, if QC disputes it then it can’t be undisputed. The defence certainly dispute it as they say it wasn’t Jeremy that carried out the Murders!
Or is it just undisputed by you?
Well the evidence means the thread scenario can't be disputed.
If EP say they deliberately moved 4 casings upstairs into the main bedroom or that the photo of Nevill is fake & he was really fully dressed then it can be disputed.
At present EP have not said this.
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There is nothing implausible about the scenario.
Nevill & June were in their own bed, sleeping at 2am. Something they did every night at that time.
Bamber started shooting them while they slept. Ditto the twins. It was a silent massacre attempt.
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It isn't plausible if you've made it up ::)
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It isn't plausible if you've made it up ::)
You don't understand Lookout. I've gone by the crime scene evidence -
Bullet casing locations.
Amount of bullets fired in this salvo.
Shot locations on body and head.
Bed attire both victims were wearing.
Likelihood both slept in their own bed every night.
Likelihood both would be asleep at 2am.
Nevill being found outside the bedroom - leaving the bedroom.
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But my killer doesn't match your killer so it's bound to be different ! I DO understand my own versions but not yours----and I won't be moved from that which I know to be right.
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Why should I and anyone else be made to understand your version of events ?
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Why should I and anyone else be made to understand your version of events ?
It is not my version.
Following the crime scene evidence only leaves that scenario.
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It is not my version.
Following the crime scene evidence only leaves that scenario.
Thanks Adam. It's just as well you're here to put us all in the picture. Just think what odd and bizarre scenarios I could have come up with had you not been here to put me on the right track. I once had Jeremy in his windsurfing gear trying to parachute SAS-style on to the farmhouse roof. No wonder the CCRC never came back to me.
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Obviously there is no other plausible bedroom scenario where Neville gets shot twice in the face from inches away. Then the next 2 shots are torso shots from feet away.
Nevill couldn't fight the shooter just prior to, during or just after the close range face shots. As they were on opposite sides of the bed.
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Bamber couldn't get close enough to make shots 3 & 4 close range face shots. As Nevill was now out of bed.
Resulting in the two torso shots from feet away.
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Fiddlesticks.
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Bamber couldn't get close enough to make shots 3 & 4 close range face shots. As Nevill was now out of bed.
Resulting in the two torso shots from feet away.
And on the other side of the bed.
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Fiddlesticks.
I think you've just spoken for us all.
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Bamber enters bedroom around 2am - Undisputed.
Nevill and June are in their bed attire - Undisputed.
Nevill and June are in bed asleep - Undisputed.
Bamber opens fire from June's side of the bed - Undisputed.
June is shot 5 times in bed - Undisputed.
Nevill wakes as June is being shot & starts to get out of bed - Undisputed.
Bamber fires two close range shots into Nevill's face as he is getting out of bed - Undisputed.
Nevill stands up & moves away from the bed - Undisputed.
Bamber shoots Nevill twice in the torso from feet away - Undisputed.
Nevill exits the main bedroom - Undisputed.
This of course is also the simple explanation why Nevill's blood was not on his bed sheets.
Suspect QC, Rob & David see June's side of the bed & ask 'why isn't Nevill's side the same'? Lots of reasons.
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This of course is also the simple explanation why Nevill's blood was not on his bed clothes.
Suspect QC, Rob & David see June's side of the bed & ask 'why isn't Nevill's side the same'? Lots of reasons.
There is of course a simple explanation why Nevill's blood was not on his bed clothes - the incident began with Nevill downstairs.
Suspect Adam, Steve and Fake Justice Unmasked see Nevill's side of the bed and ask 'How are we going to get away with this?' Lots of possibilities for them to blag on the Forum without real case knowledge.
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There is of course a simple explanation why Nevill's blood was not on his bed clothes - the incident began with Nevill downstairs.
Suspect Adam, Steve and Fake Justice Unmasked see Nevill's side of the bed and ask 'How are we going to get away with this?' Lots of possibilities for them to blag on the Forum without real case knowledge.
His name is Real Justice, he was a good contributor and you alone frightened and bullied him off this forum.
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There is of course a simple explanation why Nevill's blood was not on his bed clothes - the incident began with Nevill downstairs.
Suspect Adam, Steve and Fake Justice Unmasked see Nevill's side of the bed and ask 'How are we going to get away with this?' Lots of possibilities for them to blag on the Forum without real case knowledge.
The bullet casings are all on June's side of the bed.
You need to follow the evidence. Which results in a straight forward scenario.
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His name is Real Justice, he was a good contributor and you alone frightened and bullied him off this forum.
You are a pure liar. He was a bully.
I call him Fake Justice because he bullied me from the first. I asked him to stop and he laughed in my face (figuratively). Then I retaliated, and he began claiming I was victimising him!
That is your modus operandi. Bully and victimise, then when your victim retaliates, assert victimhood under an entirely false and fake sentimentalised sanctimoniousness.
Your behaviour is that of the classic abuser and bully. As was the behaviour of Fake Justice.
Moreover, you come on here and aggressively defend a probable accessory to murder who took blood money from a newspaper, and lied to a criminal trial about it. You are vile, wicked scum.
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The bullet casings are all on June's side of the bed.
You need to follow the evidence. Which results in a straight forward scenario.
You are not following the evidence, as I have shown. You are arrogant and ignorant.
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You are not following the evidence, as I have shown. You are arrogant and ignorant.
It is undisputed evidence. Agreed by supporters & guilters.
Regarding casings, attire, sleeping locations, time & bullet locations.
The thread is only regarding 9 shots in the bedroom. So is straight forward. The 9 shots taking less than 2 minutes.
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It is undisputed evidence. Agreed by supporters & guilters.
Regarding casings, attire, sleeping locations, time & bullet locations.
The thread is only regarding 9 shots in the bedroom. So is straight forward. The 9 shots taking less than 2 minutes.
Evidence has to be interpreted. You can't just say: 'Oh, there's so many cartridge casings recorded as found here, that must mean the rifle was fired that many times in this same room.'
It doesn't mean that at all.
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Evidence has to be interpreted. You can't just say: 'Oh, there's so many cartridge casings recorded as found here, that must mean the rifle was fired that many times in this same room.'
It doesn't mean that at all.
Both prosecution & defence must go by that.
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Bamber enters bedroom around 2am - Undisputed.
Nevill and June are in their bed attire - Undisputed.
Nevill and June are in bed asleep - Undisputed.
Bamber opens fire from June's side of the bed - Undisputed.
June is shot 5 times in bed - Undisputed.
Nevill wakes as June is being shot & starts to get out of bed - Undisputed.
Bamber fires two close range shots into Nevill's face as he is getting out of bed - Undisputed.
Nevill stands up & moves away from the bed - Undisputed.
Bamber shoots Nevill twice in the torso from feet away - Undisputed.
Nevill exits the main bedroom - Undisputed.
Your post is very misleading especially for new members and guests Adam, you know very well all of this is disputed. As I and others have said many times I would bleed if shot at point blank range in the face. There would be blood on the sheets, on my hands which I would put up to my face to protect myself and therefore blood on everything I touch.
Come on I know you are biased but you can do better than this!
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Both prosecution & defence must go by that.
No they don't.
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You are a pure liar. He was a bully.
I call him Fake Justice because he bullied me from the first. I asked him to stop and he laughed in my face (figuratively). Then I retaliated, and he began claiming I was victimising him!
That is your modus operandi. Bully and victimise, then when your victim retaliates, assert victimhood under an entirely false and fake sentimentalised sanctimoniousness.
Your behaviour is that of the classic abuser and bully. As was the behaviour of Fake Justice.
Moreover, you come on here and aggressively defend a probable accessory to murder who took blood money from a newspaper, and lied to a criminal trial about it. You are vile, wicked scum.
You've no evidence for this or it would have been used years ago. Don't give yourself airs and graces: it doesn't suit your common, vulgar personality.
As for the News of the World deal, Julie was not a lawyer. I suggest you take it up with those who gave her the legal advice in the first place.
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Your post is very misleading especially for new members and guests Adam, you know very well all of this is disputed. As I and others have said many times I would bleed if shot at point blank range in the face. There would be blood on the sheets, on my hands which I would put up to my face to protect myself and therefore blood on everything I touch.
Come on I know you are biased but you can do better than this!
Nevill was not in bed long enough.
Did you read CC's sources yesterday.
How do you believe Bamber managed to get the rifle inches from Nevill's face & fire twice. In the main bedroom. While simultaneously avoiding a physical confrontation?
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You've no evidence for this or it would have been used years ago. Don't give yourself airs and graces: it doesn't suit your common, vulgar personality.
As for the News of the World deal, Julie was not a lawyer. I suggest you take it up with those who gave her the legal advice in the first place.
I disagree. I think there is evidence for it. You assume there isn't only because she wasn't charged as an accessory, but it surely implied that she was and that her co-operation was bought in return for chloroforming her.
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Nevill was not in bed long enough.
Did you read CC's sources yesterday.
How do you believe Bamber managed to get the rifle inches from Nevill's face & fire twice. In the main bedroom. While simultaneously avoiding a physical confrontation?
The position of the bullet cases to me look wrong if Nevil was shot from inches away, can you explain?
I have asked you several times now.
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The position of the bullet cases to me look wrong if Nevil was shot from inches away, can you explain?
I have asked you several times now.
Explain what?
Bamber shot both June & Nevill from June's side of the bed. Nine times.
As the casings show.
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Explain what?
Bamber shot both June & Nevill from June's side of the bed. Nine times.
As the casings show.
If Nevil is shot from inches away the position of the bullet cases are wrong? to me anyway? can you suggest which cases correspond to the shots which hit Nevil while in bed?
Should be easy as your scenario fits the evidence as you keep saying.
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If Nevil is shot from inches away the position of the bullet cases are wrong? to me anyway? can you suggest which cases correspond to the shots which hit Nevil while in bed?
Should be easy as your scenario fits the evidence as you keep saying.
I can't do that.
As said yesterday, Bamber's arms, the rifle with silencer was long enough to go across the bed to Nevill.
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I can't do that.
As said yesterday, Bamber's arms, the rifle with silencer was long enough to go across the bed to Nevill.
You don't half talk some old tosh.
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I can't do that.
As said yesterday, Bamber's arms, the rifle with silencer was long enough to go across the bed to Nevill.
Yes I know you can't so thanks for being honest, to me the position of the bullet cases are wrong if Nevil is shot while in bed from inches away.
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Yes I know you can't so thanks for being honest, to me the position of the bullet cases are wrong if Nevil is shot while in bed from inches away.
Refer back to my question in reply 33.
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You don't half talk some old tosh.
It's called evidence.
Why do you support Bamber? Oh yes, he sends you Christmas cards.
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Refer back to my question in reply 33.
Sorry not sure what your question is?
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Nevill wasn't in bed ! He possibly had intentions of going into Sheila's bed instead because his slippers were under her bed. Sheila could possibly have been in their bed with her mother reading passages of the Bible, which might have sparked something off in Sheila's mind. Neither women were good sleepers.
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Sorry not sure what your question is?
'How do you believe Bamber managed to get the rifle inches from Nevill's face & fire twice. In the main bedroom. While simultaneously avoiding a physical confrontation?'
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The evidence shows this happened.
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'How do you believe Bamber managed to get the rifle inches from Nevill's face & fire twice. In the main bedroom. While simultaneously avoiding a physical confrontation?'
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The evidence shows this happened.
If it happened then why does the position of the bullet cases appear wrong, if you said Nevil was shot with the barrel of the rifle three or four feet away I would be more happy?
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In a 12'x12' room it's not difficult to be close enough to shoot ::) It wasn't exactly a shooting range.
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In a 12'x12' room it's not difficult to be close enough to shoot ::) It wasn't exactly a shooting range.
Plus JB did not need to get close Lookout, he could hit a rabbit at 50 yards, Sheila would need to get close.
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If Bamber was shooting across the bed and the bullet cases eject forward and right from the gun then wouldn’t some of the cases be expected to end up on the bed?
I thought all cases were on the floor?
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If it happened then why does the position of the bullet cases appear wrong, if you said Nevil was shot with the barrel of the rifle three or four feet away I would be more happy?
Well if they appear wrong to you, there is nothing I can do.
Although you were unable to provide an alternative bedroom scenario where Bamber achieves these close range 2 shots while simultaneously avoiding a confrontation.
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Plus JB did not need to get close Lookout, he could hit a rabbit at 50 yards, Sheila would need to get close.
Not even the 'sundance kid' could do that.
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Well if they appear wrong to you, there is nothing I can do.
Although you were unable to provide an alternative bedroom scenario where Bamber achieves these close range 2 shots while simultaneously avoiding a confrontation.
I know you can't do anything, but it casts doubt on your undisputed scenario? I don't think Nevil was shot in bed?
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Not even the 'sundance kid' could do that.
Have you not seen the film? The Sundance kid could trim a bunnies whiskers from 50 yards!
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I know you can't do anything, but it casts doubt on your undisputed scenario? I don't think Nevil was shot in bed?
Well he was shot in the bedroom. Four times.
Twice in the face from inches away. Twice in the torso from feet away.
There was no physical confrontation.
Please provide your scenario.
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Have you not seen the film? The Sundance kid could trim a bunnies whiskers from 50 yards!
There was a double whammy on TV on Sunday.
Butch & Sundance then 'The Sting'.
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There was a double whammy on TV on Sunday.
Butch & Sundance then 'The Sting'.
Don't forget your favourite Adam - EastEnders omnibus in the evening. But don't expect me to watch it. I can't forgive Peggy and Pat for their involvement in all this, to be honest. And as for Frank Butcher! Driving the car, knowing they would frame Jeremy.
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Well he was shot in the bedroom. Four times.
Twice in the face from inches away. Twice in the torso from feet away.
There was no physical confrontation.
Please provide your scenario.
Well Cc disagrees with you on this? Nevils only chance was to fight to the finish in the bedroom, it was his only chance. The rifle was empty or nearly empty plus JB would not let him anywhere near the phone.
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Well he was shot in the bedroom. Four times.
Twice in the face from inches away. Twice in the torso from feet away.
There was no physical confrontation.
Please provide your scenario.
Steve thinks that June was shot in the head while propped up in bed and she managed to get out of bed and move around, leaving a blood trail at the front of the bed.
How is it that June leaves blood but not Nevill?
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Well Cc disagrees with you on this? Nevils only chance was to fight to the finish in the bedroom, it was his only chance. The rifle was empty or nearly empty plus JB would not let him anywhere near the phone.
That is your view.
The evidence is Nevill didn't. Which we have to go by.
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Steve thinks that June was shot in the head while propped up in bed and she managed to get out of bed and move around, leaving a blood trail at the front of the bed.
How is it that June leaves blood but not Nevill?
You know why.
June was shot 5 times in bed. Then stayed there for several seconds or minutes.
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Well Cc disagrees with you on this? Nevils only chance was to fight to the finish in the bedroom, it was his only chance. The rifle was empty or nearly empty plus JB would not let him anywhere near the phone.
I don't mind you having another scenario.
Just can't see Nevill being awake & stood up in the bedroom. Then letting Bamber put a rifle inches from his face & firing twice.
There would be a physical confrontation.
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Steve thinks that June was shot in the head while propped up in bed and she managed to get out of bed and move around, leaving a blood trail at the front of the bed.
How is it that June leaves blood but not Nevill?
The ballistics and pathological evidence make it crystal clear that Mrs Bamber was first shot in bed with her head on the pillow x 2 shots both of which entered and exited. As she lifted herself out of bed she sustained 4 further gunshot wounds: 1x non-penetrating; 3 x entered and 1 exited.
Having sustained the 6 body shots, bloodstains to the carpet show she lifted herself out of bed and moved from her side of the bed to Mr Bamber's side and back to the door which leads to the hall. She then sustained 2 further gunshot wounds to the head which rendered her incapable of voluntary movement thereafter.
I have explained numerous times that exit wounds produce far more blood than entry wounds:
Exit wounds, in comparison, are larger and more irregular. They show outward beveling of the soft tissue and the margin. Entry wounds will be free of characteristics, including flame burns and singeing, soiling and redding from gas, as well as tattooing from unburnt particles and metal scraps. They do not have an abrasion rim or grease collar, except when the skin is shored against a hard surface.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK556119/
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The ballistics and pathological evidence make it crystal clear that Mrs Bamber was first shot in bed with her head on the pillow x 2 shots both of which entered and exited. As she lifted herself out of bed she sustained 4 further gunshot wounds: 1x non-penetrating; 3 x entered and 1 exited.
Having sustained the 6 body shots, bloodstains to the carpet show she lifted herself out of bed and moved from her side of the bed to Mr Bamber's side and back to the door which leads to the hall. She then sustained 2 further gunshot wounds to the head which rendered her incapable of voluntary movement thereafter.
I have explained numerous times that exit wounds produce far more blood than entry wounds:
Exit wounds, in comparison, are larger and more irregular. They show outward beveling of the soft tissue and the margin. Entry wounds will be free of characteristics, including flame burns and singeing, soiling and redding from gas, as well as tattooing from unburnt particles and metal scraps. They do not have an abrasion rim or grease collar, except when the skin is shored against a hard surface.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK556119/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb9nXeXqEho
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The ballistics and pathological evidence make it crystal clear that Mrs Bamber was first shot in bed with her head on the pillow x 2 shots both of which entered and exited. As she lifted herself out of bed she sustained 4 further gunshot wounds: 1x non-penetrating; 3 x entered and 1 exited.
Having sustained the 6 body shots, bloodstains to the carpet show she lifted herself out of bed and moved from her side of the bed to Mr Bamber's side and back to the door which leads to the hall. She then sustained 2 further gunshot wounds to the head which rendered her incapable of voluntary movement thereafter.
I have explained numerous times that exit wounds produce far more blood than entry wounds:
Exit wounds, in comparison, are larger and more irregular. They show outward beveling of the soft tissue and the margin. Entry wounds will be free of characteristics, including flame burns and singeing, soiling and redding from gas, as well as tattooing from unburnt particles and metal scraps. They do not have an abrasion rim or grease collar, except when the skin is shored against a hard surface.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK556119/
None of the above can explain the marks on her chin and shins.
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None of the above can explain the marks on her chin and shins.
If by marks you mean bloodstains they're referred to in various docs.
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If by marks you mean bloodstains they're referred to in various docs.
There needs to be an explanation how she got the bloodstains on her shins then and why they fell and clung in the manner that they did. So far, only David has attempted to do this by saying June walked. If that's the case, she would need to be doing the goose step. Also, bloodstains do not cause indentations in the skin. On the bruise on her chin, is an indentation in a straight line.
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And finger indentations around her neck !
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You know why.
June was shot 5 times in bed. Then stayed there for several seconds or minutes.
Not what I meant.
What I am asking is: Putting aside the plausibility of June being able to move around at all after being shot in the head and several other places while still in bed, how come June leaves blood on the carpet but Nevill does not?
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Not what I meant.
What I am asking is: Putting aside the plausibility of June being able to move around at all after being shot in the head and several other places while still in bed, how come June leaves blood on the carpet but Nevill does not?
Because June crawled and died on the carpet?
Nevill left the bedroom within seconds.
Simple.
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Because June crawled and died on the carpet?
Nevill left the bedroom within seconds.
Simple.
Let's say that a resolution of this problem depends on Nevill bolting from the room.
Steve says that Jeremy shot June in the head while she was still in bed. That means Jeremy needed to be stood at the foot of the bed, facing Nevill and June, and he would have been blocking Nevill's exit from the bedroom.
This also means that Jeremy must have shot June first, allowing Nevill to wake and escape, even though he had ample time to simply kill Nevill while he slept. Jeremy was using a semi-automatic rifle and just needed to point the muzzle end at Nevill. Nothing could be simpler.
Nevill has managed to get out of bed and past Jeremy, leaving no blood, despite being shot several times.
If the transfer blood mark on the wall of the landing at the door of Sheila's bedroom is from Nevill, that means Nevill has run on the opposite direction of the stairs, then stopped and run to the stairs. He has then only left one further transfer blood mark anywhere: on the wall of the first stair landing. All this time, Jeremy has not fired on him or caught up with him.
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Let's say that a resolution of this problem depends on Nevill bolting from the room.
Steve says that Jeremy shot June in the head while she was still in bed. That means Jeremy needed to be stood at the foot of the bed, facing Nevill and June, and he would have been blocking Nevill's exit from the bedroom.
This also means that Jeremy must have shot June first, allowing Nevill to wake and escape, even though he had ample time to simply kill Nevill while he slept. Jeremy was using a semi-automatic rifle and just needed to point the muzzle end at Nevill. Nothing could be simpler.
Nevill has managed to get out of bed and past Jeremy, leaving no blood, despite being shot several times.
If the transfer blood mark on the wall of the landing at the door of Sheila's bedroom is from Nevill, that means Nevill has run on the opposite direction of the stairs, then stopped and run to the stairs. He has then only left one further transfer blood mark anywhere: on the wall of the first stair landing. All this time, Jeremy has not fired on him or caught up with him.
Would be a wise move. Bamber was shooting him.
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Let's say that a resolution of this problem depends on Nevill bolting from the room.
Steve says that Jeremy shot June in the head while she was still in bed. That means Jeremy needed to be stood at the foot of the bed, facing Nevill and June, and he would have been blocking Nevill's exit from the bedroom.
This also means that Jeremy must have shot June first, allowing Nevill to wake and escape, even though he had ample time to simply kill Nevill while he slept. Jeremy was using a semi-automatic rifle and just needed to point the muzzle end at Nevill. Nothing could be simpler.
Nevill has managed to get out of bed and past Jeremy, leaving no blood, despite being shot several times.
If the transfer blood mark on the wall of the landing at the door of Sheila's bedroom is from Nevill, that means Nevill has run on the opposite direction of the stairs, then stopped and run to the stairs. He has then only left one further transfer blood mark anywhere: on the wall of the first stair landing. All this time, Jeremy has not fired on him or caught up with him.
Not really. The end of the bed did not go across the door.
Nice try.
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Would be a wise move. Bamber was shooting him.
It would be. Equally, it could be a wise move to tackle him. The problem is: Jeremy is stood in his way. Did he just barge past him?
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Not really. The end of the bed did not go across the door.
Nice try.
You misunderstand. The bed was perpendicular to the door. To shoot June in the head to the upper right of her right ear, he would need to be stood at roughly a right angle to her. I conclude he was stood at the foot of the bed.
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Let's say that a resolution of this problem depends on Nevill bolting from the room.
Steve says that Jeremy shot June in the head while she was still in bed. That means Jeremy needed to be stood at the foot of the bed, facing Nevill and June, and he would have been blocking Nevill's exit from the bedroom.
This also means that Jeremy must have shot June first, allowing Nevill to wake and escape, even though he had ample time to simply kill Nevill while he slept. Jeremy was using a semi-automatic rifle and just needed to point the muzzle end at Nevill. Nothing could be simpler.
Nevill has managed to get out of bed and past Jeremy, leaving no blood, despite being shot several times.
If the transfer blood mark on the wall of the landing at the door of Sheila's bedroom is from Nevill, that means Nevill has run on the opposite direction of the stairs, then stopped and run to the stairs. He has then only left one further transfer blood mark anywhere: on the wall of the first stair landing. All this time, Jeremy has not fired on him or caught up with him.
That is what the evidence suggests.
June 5 times, Nevill twice.
We did go through this yesterday.
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That is what the evidence suggests.
June 5 times, Nevill twice.
We did go through this yesterday.
LOL.
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Let's say that a resolution of this problem depends on Nevill bolting from the room.
Steve says that Jeremy shot June in the head while she was still in bed. That means Jeremy needed to be stood at the foot of the bed, facing Nevill and June, and he would have been blocking Nevill's exit from the bedroom.
This also means that Jeremy must have shot June first, allowing Nevill to wake and escape, even though he had ample time to simply kill Nevill while he slept. Jeremy was using a semi-automatic rifle and just needed to point the muzzle end at Nevill. Nothing could be simpler.
Nevill has managed to get out of bed and past Jeremy, leaving no blood, despite being shot several times.
If the transfer blood mark on the wall of the landing at the door of Sheila's bedroom is from Nevill, that means Nevill has run on the opposite direction of the stairs, then stopped and run to the stairs. He has then only left one further transfer blood mark anywhere: on the wall of the first stair landing. All this time, Jeremy has not fired on him or caught up with him.
That is what the evidence shows. He left the bedroom quickly. As you do.
Are you able to digest that?
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That is what the evidence shows. He left the bedroom quickly. As you do.
Are you able to digest that?
Clearly I disagree with you, so why don't you just accept that and move on, instead of posting the same stuff over and over and over again?
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Let's say that a resolution of this problem depends on Nevill bolting from the room.
Steve says that Jeremy shot June in the head while she was still in bed. That means Jeremy needed to be stood at the foot of the bed, facing Nevill and June, and he would have been blocking Nevill's exit from the bedroom.
This also means that Jeremy must have shot June first, allowing Nevill to wake and escape, even though he had ample time to simply kill Nevill while he slept. Jeremy was using a semi-automatic rifle and just needed to point the muzzle end at Nevill. Nothing could be simpler.
Nevill has managed to get out of bed and past Jeremy, leaving no blood, despite being shot several times.
If the transfer blood mark on the wall of the landing at the door of Sheila's bedroom is from Nevill, that means Nevill has run on the opposite direction of the stairs, then stopped and run to the stairs. He has then only left one further transfer blood mark anywhere: on the wall of the first stair landing. All this time, Jeremy has not fired on him or caught up with him.
He was out of bullets.
He caught up with him in the kitchen. A flat surface.
As the evidence shows.
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Bamber enters bedroom around 2am - Undisputed.
Nevill and June are in their bed attire - Undisputed.
Nevill and June are in bed asleep - Undisputed.
Bamber opens fire from June's side of the bed - Undisputed.
June is shot 5 times in bed - Undisputed.
Nevill wakes as June is being shot & starts to get out of bed - Undisputed.
Bamber fires two close range shots into Nevill's face as he is getting out of bed - Undisputed.
Nevill stands up & moves away from the bed - Undisputed.
Bamber shoots Nevill twice in the torso from feet away - Undisputed.
Nevill exits the main bedroom - Undisputed.
Anyway this straight forward scenario matches the evidence.
I did invite Rob yesterday to provide an alternative scenario.
Where Nevill gets shot twice in the face from inches away & twice in the torso from feet away. While simultaneously avoiding a physical bedroom confronration.
I got no response. Invitation open to everyone.
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Anyway this straight forward scenario matches the evidence.
I did invite Rob yesterday to provide an alternative scenario.
Where Nevill gets shot twice in the face from inches away & twice in the torso from feet away. While simultaneously avoiding a physical bedroom confronration.
I got no response. Invitation open to everyone.
Anyway my straightforward scenarios matches the evidence.
I did invite Adam yesterday to provide an alternative scenario but he keeps saying that Nevill can be shot without leaving blood anywhere and that June can walk around the bedroom after being shot in the head. There's no helping some people.
I got no response. Invitation open to everyone.
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Anyway my straightforward scenarios matches the evidence.
I did invite Adam yesterday to provide an alternative scenario but he keeps saying that Nevill can be shot without leaving blood anywhere and that June can walk around the bedroom after being shot in the head. There's no helping some people.
I got no response. Invitation open to everyone.
Thought David is saying she walked. I've never said it.
However the evidence does show June was shot 5 times in bed. Then moved across the bedroom & back again. Then shot twice more.
Always assumed she crawled. But don't mind alternative sources.
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Anyway my straightforward scenarios matches the evidence.
I did invite Adam yesterday to provide an alternative scenario but he keeps saying that Nevill can be shot without leaving blood anywhere and that June can walk around the bedroom after being shot in the head. There's no helping some people.
I got no response. Invitation open to everyone.
All in the thread post. Have you not read it?
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There is -
Undisputed crime scene evidence. Online for 20+ years.
A straight forward scenario which matches the crime scene evidence.
----------
Yet people refuse to accept the scenario.
Talk about flogging a dead horse.
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Thought David is saying she walked. I've never said it.
However the evidence does show June was shot 5 times in bed. Then moved across the bedroom & back again. Then shot twice more.
Always assumed she crawled. But don't mind alternative sources.
I have read your thread post, and referred to it earlier in the thread.
If June was shot five times in bed, she's staying in bed - in my layman's opinion. Especially if she is shot in the head.
In view of the layout of the main bedroom, if Nevill is shot in or as he is getting out of bed, he will leave blood on the bed clothes and will either tackle Jeremy there and then, or Jeremy will block him, or both. Jeremy is in his way. And if Jeremy shoots him in the upper head region at this stage, you can multiple the probabilities that he is not making it out of that bedroom.
I don't find your scenario very plausible (which is not to say it isn't happen - I accept it is possible).
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I have read your thread post, and referred to it earlier in the thread.
If June was shot five times in bed, she's staying in bed - in my layman's opinion. Especially if she is shot in the head.
In view of the layout of the main bedroom, if Nevill is shot in or as he is getting out of bed, he will leave blood on the bed clothes and will either tackle Jeremy there and then, or Jeremy will block him, or both. Jeremy is in his way.
I don't find your scenario very plausible (which is not to say it isn't happen - I accept it is possible).
Well the evidence shows she moved. As Nevill did.
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I have read your thread post, and referred to it earlier in the thread.
If June was shot five times in bed, she's staying in bed - in my layman's opinion. Especially if she is shot in the head.
In view of the layout of the main bedroom, if Nevill is shot in or as he is getting out of bed, he will leave blood on the bed clothes and will either tackle Jeremy there and then, or Jeremy will block him, or both. Jeremy is in his way. And if Jeremy shoots him in the upper head region at this stage, you can multiple the probabilities that he is not making it out of that bedroom.
I don't find your scenario very plausible (which is not to say it isn't happen - I accept it is possible).
The evidence shows he was not in bed long enough to do that.
We have to accept the evidence.
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I have read your thread post, and referred to it earlier in the thread.
If June was shot five times in bed, she's staying in bed - in my layman's opinion. Especially if she is shot in the head.
In view of the layout of the main bedroom, if Nevill is shot in or as he is getting out of bed, he will leave blood on the bed clothes and will either tackle Jeremy there and then, or Jeremy will block him, or both. Jeremy is in his way. And if Jeremy shoots him in the upper head region at this stage, you can multiple the probabilities that he is not making it out of that bedroom.
I don't find your scenario very plausible (which is not to say it isn't happen - I accept it is possible).
The evidence shows that did not happen.
Everyone must accept the evidence.
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I have read your thread post, and referred to it earlier in the thread.
If June was shot five times in bed, she's staying in bed - in my layman's opinion. Especially if she is shot in the head.
In view of the layout of the main bedroom, if Nevill is shot in or as he is getting out of bed, he will leave blood on the bed clothes and will either tackle Jeremy there and then, or Jeremy will block him, or both. Jeremy is in his way. And if Jeremy shoots him in the upper head region at this stage, you can multiple the probabilities that he is not making it out of that bedroom.
I don't find your scenario very plausible (which is not to say it isn't happen - I accept it is possible).
The evidence shows Nevill was shot twice in the face & twice in the torso. In the main bedroom. He then exited.
Everyone has to accept the evidence.
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Adam,
First, I don't accept that you have based your scenario on the evidence. Important aspects of Dr. Vanezis' evidence contradict what you are saying, whereas my own Jeremy scenario is consistent with the pathological evidence. There is no blood on Nevill's side of the bed and no blood of Nevill's in the bedroom. Jeremy would have been in Nevill's way. The position of the cartridge cases cannot be relied on. It's a virtual certainty that June's body has been moved by somebody prior to photography, probably the police.
Of course, no scenario will be perfect and even the prosecution at trial could not be sure of a scenario, and Jeremy's convictions are not based on a specific scenario.
I do accept that you have adjusted your scenario to some of my objections - which is to your credit.
I think we're at that stage again when we're just going round in circles repeating ourselves. No doubt you will repeat yourself for the next six pages of the thread in order to bury our objections, and no doubt the moderator will do nothing about it.
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Adam,
First, I don't accept that you have based your scenario on the evidence. Important aspects of Dr. Vanezis' evidence contradict what you are saying, whereas my own Jeremy scenario is consistent with the pathological evidence. There is no blood on Nevill's side of the bed and no blood of Nevill's in the bedroom. The position of the cartridge cases cannot be relied on. It's a virtual certainty that June's body has been moved by somebody prior to photography, probably the police.
Of course, no scenario will be perfect and even the prosecution at trial could not be sure of a scenario, and Jeremy's conviction is not based on a specific scenario.
I do accept that you have adjusted your scenario to some of my objections - which is to your credit.
I think we're at that stage again when we're just going round in circles repeating ourselves. No doubt you will repeat yourself for the next six pages of the thread in order to bury our objections, and no doubt the moderator will do nothing about it.
You keep saying the same thing. I keep giving you the same answer.
I have invited an alternative scenario for Nevill's first 4 shots.
Remember the evidence shows they were in the bedroom.
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Adam,
First, I don't accept that you have based your scenario on the evidence. Important aspects of Dr. Vanezis' evidence contradict what you are saying, whereas my own Jeremy scenario is consistent with the pathological evidence. There is no blood on Nevill's side of the bed and no blood of Nevill's in the bedroom. Jeremy would have been in Nevill's way. The position of the cartridge cases cannot be relied on. It's a virtual certainty that June's body has been moved by somebody prior to photography, probably the police.
Of course, no scenario will be perfect and even the prosecution at trial could not be sure of a scenario, and Jeremy's convictions are not based on a specific scenario.
I do accept that you have adjusted your scenario to some of my objections - which is to your credit.
I think we're at that stage again when we're just going round in circles repeating ourselves. No doubt you will repeat yourself for the next six pages of the thread in order to bury our objections, and no doubt the moderator will do nothing about it.
Nevill got past him. As the evidence shows.
Nevill was 6.4 & 15 stone.
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Adam,
First, I don't accept that you have based your scenario on the evidence. Important aspects of Dr. Vanezis' evidence contradict what you are saying, whereas my own Jeremy scenario is consistent with the pathological evidence. There is no blood on Nevill's side of the bed and no blood of Nevill's in the bedroom. Jeremy would have been in Nevill's way. The position of the cartridge cases cannot be relied on. It's a virtual certainty that June's body has been moved by somebody prior to photography, probably the police.
Of course, no scenario will be perfect and even the prosecution at trial could not be sure of a scenario, and Jeremy's convictions are not based on a specific scenario.
I do accept that you have adjusted your scenario to some of my objections - which is to your credit.
I think we're at that stage again when we're just going round in circles repeating ourselves. No doubt you will repeat yourself for the next six pages of the thread in order to bury our objections, and no doubt the moderator will do nothing about it.
Everyone has to go by the crime scene evidence.
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Adam,
First, I don't accept that you have based your scenario on the evidence. Important aspects of Dr. Vanezis' evidence contradict what you are saying, whereas my own Jeremy scenario is consistent with the pathological evidence. There is no blood on Nevill's side of the bed and no blood of Nevill's in the bedroom. Jeremy would have been in Nevill's way. The position of the cartridge cases cannot be relied on. It's a virtual certainty that June's body has been moved by somebody prior to photography, probably the police.
Of course, no scenario will be perfect and even the prosecution at trial could not be sure of a scenario, and Jeremy's convictions are not based on a specific scenario.
I do accept that you have adjusted your scenario to some of my objections - which is to your credit.
I think we're at that stage again when we're just going round in circles repeating ourselves. No doubt you will repeat yourself for the next six pages of the thread in order to bury our objections, and no doubt the moderator will do nothing about it.
Why would the police move June's body?
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Adam,
First, I don't accept that you have based your scenario on the evidence. Important aspects of Dr. Vanezis' evidence contradict what you are saying, whereas my own Jeremy scenario is consistent with the pathological evidence. There is no blood on Nevill's side of the bed and no blood of Nevill's in the bedroom. Jeremy would have been in Nevill's way. The position of the cartridge cases cannot be relied on. It's a virtual certainty that June's body has been moved by somebody prior to photography, probably the police.
Of course, no scenario will be perfect and even the prosecution at trial could not be sure of a scenario, and Jeremy's convictions are not based on a specific scenario.
I do accept that you have adjusted your scenario to some of my objections - which is to your credit.
I think we're at that stage again when we're just going round in circles repeating ourselves. No doubt you will repeat yourself for the next six pages of the thread in order to bury our objections, and no doubt the moderator will do nothing about it.
I did this week.
After realising Nevill could have been shot in the face just outside of his bed.
Bamber's arms, the rifle & silencer added up to several feet in lenght. Easily covering the bed width.
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June's body WAS moved !
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Bamber enters bedroom around 2am - Undisputed.
Nevill and June are in their bed attire - Undisputed.
Nevill and June are in bed asleep - Undisputed.
Bamber opens fire from June's side of the bed - Undisputed.
June is shot 5 times in bed - Undisputed.
Nevill wakes as June is being shot & starts to get out of bed - Undisputed.
Bamber fires two close range shots into Nevill's face as he is getting out of bed - Undisputed.
Nevill stands up & moves away from the bed - Undisputed.
Bamber shoots Nevill twice in the torso from feet away - Undisputed.
Nevill exits the main bedroom - Undisputed.
Where do we get 2AM from
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How do we know that Nevill was for definite in bed???
Why would Bamber shoot at his mother first?
Surely the biggest threat was Nevill
We have two scenarios described from two point of views
The boutflours " Nevill was a deep sleeper"
Or from Bamber himself " he has only got to get a whiff of a fox in the garden and he is wide awake"
The difference is Jeremy grew up with his dad. And slept in the same premises. Boutflour didn't
Appreciate we are just trying to piece things together
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The ballistics and pathological evidence make it crystal clear that Mrs Bamber was first shot in bed with her head on the pillow x 2 shots both of which entered and exited. As she lifted herself out of bed she sustained 4 further gunshot wounds: 1x non-penetrating; 3 x entered and 1 exited.
Having sustained the 6 body shots, bloodstains to the carpet show she lifted herself out of bed and moved from her side of the bed to Mr Bamber's side and back to the door which leads to the hall. She then sustained 2 further gunshot wounds to the head which rendered her incapable of voluntary movement thereafter.
I have explained numerous times that exit wounds produce far more blood than entry wounds:
Exit wounds, in comparison, are larger and more irregular. They show outward beveling of the soft tissue and the margin. Entry wounds will be free of characteristics, including flame burns and singeing, soiling and redding from gas, as well as tattooing from unburnt particles and metal scraps. They do not have an abrasion rim or grease collar, except when the skin is shored against a hard surface.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK556119/
No, it doesn't. The evidence is open to interpretation.
I accept it is possible that June was shot in bed several times, including in the head, and then managed to get out of bed and crawl around. No-one can dismiss this out-of-hand. It is possible. But I believe it is not very plausible and so I wish to consider other scenarios.
In short, I do not accept that Nevill or June were shot in bed, and in Nevill's case, I doubt he was in the main bedroom at all. I also believe June's body was moved by the police prior to forensic photography.
You are free to disagree and copy-and-paste things and post up links. I have a brain and can think for myself, thank you. I do consider what the experts say, but I don't treat it as Gospel. It seems that neither does Adam. If his Jeremy scenario is anything to go by, Adam has sacked the pathologist without notice. Personally, I wouldn't go that far, but each to their own.
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No, it doesn't. The evidence is open to interpretation.
I accept it is possible that June was shot in bed several times, including in the head, and then managed to get out of bed and crawl around. No-one can dismiss this out-of-hand. It is possible. But I believe it is not very plausible and so I wish to consider other scenarios.
In short, I do not accept that Nevill or June were shot in bed, and in Nevill's case, I doubt he was in the main bedroom at all. I also believe June's body was moved by the police prior to forensic photography.
You are free to disagree and copy-and-paste things and post up links. I have a brain and can think for myself, thank you. I do consider what the experts say, but I don't treat it as Gospel. It seems that neither does Adam. If his Jeremy scenario is anything to go by, Adam has sacked the pathologist without notice. Personally, I wouldn't go that far, but each to their own.
Likely June was in bed, asleep at 2am. As would be the case virtually every night.
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No, it doesn't. The evidence is open to interpretation.
I accept it is possible that June was shot in bed several times, including in the head, and then managed to get out of bed and crawl around. No-one can dismiss this out-of-hand. It is possible. But I believe it is not very plausible and so I wish to consider other scenarios.
In short, I do not accept that Nevill or June were shot in bed, and in Nevill's case, I doubt he was in the main bedroom at all. I also believe June's body was moved by the police prior to forensic photography.
You are free to disagree and copy-and-paste things and post up links. I have a brain and can think for myself, thank you. I do consider what the experts say, but I don't treat it as Gospel. It seems that neither does Adam. If his Jeremy scenario is anything to go by, Adam has sacked the pathologist without notice. Personally, I wouldn't go that far, but each to their own.
The evidence shows June was shot 5 times in bed.
Nevill was shot twice in the face while getting out or just out of bed.
Everyone has to accept the evidence. Even the CT have not disputed it.
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How do we know that Nevill was for definite in bed???
Why would Bamber shoot at his mother first?
Surely the biggest threat was Nevill
We have two scenarios described from two point of views
The boutflours " Nevill was a deep sleeper"
Or from Bamber himself " he has only got to get a whiff of a fox in the garden and he is wide awake"
The difference is Jeremy grew up with his dad. And slept in the same premises. Boutflour didn't
Appreciate we are just trying to piece things together
It was around 2am.
He needed to sleep. Just done a long day on the farm & had another long day tomorrow.
He was found bare footed in his bed attire.
He was shot 4 times in the bedroom.
He was shot twice in the face from inches away in the bedroom.
His wife was asleep in bed.
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No, it doesn't. The evidence is open to interpretation.
I accept it is possible that June was shot in bed several times, including in the head, and then managed to get out of bed and crawl around. No-one can dismiss this out-of-hand. It is possible. But I believe it is not very plausible and so I wish to consider other scenarios.
In short, I do not accept that Nevill or June were shot in bed, and in Nevill's case, I doubt he was in the main bedroom at all. I also believe June's body was moved by the police prior to forensic photography.
You are free to disagree and copy-and-paste things and post up links. I have a brain and can think for myself, thank you. I do consider what the experts say, but I don't treat it as Gospel. It seems that neither does Adam. If his Jeremy scenario is anything to go by, Adam has sacked the pathologist without notice. Personally, I wouldn't go that far, but each to their own.
How it can be open to interpretation when two highly qualified pathologists of long experience agree either one of the headshots Mrs Bamber sustained would have rendered her incapable of involuntary movement thereafter? The 2 shots to the head were immediately fatal.
Mrs Bamber wasn't crawling around. The pathological evidence makes it clear she was standing having sustained the 6 not immediately fatal body shots evidenced by the blood staining.
Of course you know more than two highly qualified pathologists of long experience ::)
You are now saying you believe Mrs Bamber's body was moved prior to soc images. Would that be before or after four casings were moved? ::)
We all have brains its how they're used or not that counts. :P
It's simply unbelievable that you are the first to upload podcasts and media interviews with the CT, which you appear to be fully supportive of, and yet are quite scathing about the pathological evidence. ::)
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How it can be open to interpretation when two highly qualified pathologists of long experience agree either one of the headshots Mrs Bamber sustained would have rendered her incapable of involuntary movement thereafter? The 2 shots to the head were immediately fatal.
Mrs Bamber wasn't crawling around. The pathological evidence makes it clear she was standing having sustained the 6 not immediately fatal body shots evidenced by the blood staining.
Of course you know more than two highly qualified pathologists of long experience ::)
You are now saying you believe Mrs Bamber's body was moved prior to soc images. Would that be before or after four casings were moved? ::)
We all have brains its how they're used or not that counts. :P
It's simply unbelievable that you are the first to upload podcasts and media interviews with the CT, which you appear to be fully supportive of, and yet are quite scathing about the pathological evidence. ::)
Have you got a source June walked to the other side of the bedroom & back?
Suspect it was a combination of walking, stumbling & crawling. Before finally collapsing.
June going to the box room entrance & back suggests this entrance/exit was blocked.
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Bamber enters bedroom around 2am - Undisputed.
Nevill and June are in their bed attire - Undisputed.
Nevill and June are in bed asleep - Undisputed.
Bamber opens fire from June's side of the bed - Undisputed.
June is shot 5 times in bed - Undisputed.
Nevill wakes as June is being shot & starts to get out of bed - Undisputed.
Bamber fires two close range shots into Nevill's face as he is getting out of bed - Undisputed.
Nevill stands up & moves away from the bed - Undisputed.
Bamber shoots Nevill twice in the torso from feet away - Undisputed.
Nevill exits the main bedroom - Undisputed.
June was shot 6 times to the body in bed and upon leaving: 5 entry wounds. 3 exit wounds. 1 non-penetrating wound.
June was shot a further twice in the head where she was found: 2 entry wounds.
A total of 8 gunshot wounds:
7 entry wounds
3 exit wounds
1 non-penetrating wound
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June was shot 6 times to the body in bed and upon leaving: 5 entry wounds. 3 exit wounds. 1 non-penetrating wound.
June was shot a further twice in the head where she was found: 2 entry wounds.
A total of 8 gunshot wounds:
7 entry wounds
3 exit wounds
1 non-penetrating wound
63.
Of the seven injuries suffered by June Bamber, five were shots from the gun held at least one foot away from the body. The bullet wound between the eyes was fired from less than one foot away, and could have been with the gun in contact with the skin, although he viewed that as unlikely. Mr Fletcher was unable to estimate the range of the shot which had caused the injury to the right side of Mrs Bamber's chest.
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60.
Found in or just outside the bedroom were thirteen cartridge cases.
Seven would account for the shots into June Bamber, two for the wounds suffered by Sheila Caffell, leaving four cartridge cases that had been fired at Nevill Bamber
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Awaiting CC's source. Will have to be good to negate the COA.
Not too important as it does not change my undisputed scenario going by the crime scene evidence.
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Have you got a source June walked to the other side of the bedroom & back?
Suspect it was a combination of walking, stumbling & crawling. Before finally collapsing.
June going to the box room entrance & back suggests this entrance/exit was blocked.
Relevant part of pathological evidence attached.
If Mrs Bamber was stumbling or crawling then I guess you might expect to see smears of blood on the carpet but to my eye the stains appear to represent drips. In any event I don't think its important whether she walked, stumbled or crawled.
There's no blood staining as far as the door to the box room. It looks to me as though she went to Mr Bamber's side in anticipation of the phone being there.
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Relevant part of pathological evidence attached.
If Mrs Bamber was stumbling or crawling then I guess you might expect to see smears of blood on the carpet but to my eye the stains appear to represent drips. In any event I don't think its important whether she walked, stumbled or crawled.
There's no blood staining as far as the door to the box room. It looks to me as though she went to Mr Bamber's side in anticipation of the phone being there.
Agree. The main thing is she was shot in bed while sleeping. Which negates QC's theory that June was on the landing shouting & was shot there.
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Agree. The main thing is she was shot in bed while sleeping. Which negates QC's theory that June was on the landing shouting & was shot there.
No one knows whether or not she was actually sleeping but the pathological and ballistics evidence is crystal clear she sustained a total of 6 gunshot wounds whilst prone with her head on the pillow and whilst she lifted herself out of bed.
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63.
Of the seven injuries suffered by June Bamber, five were shots from the gun held at least one foot away from the body. The bullet wound between the eyes was fired from less than one foot away, and could have been with the gun in contact with the skin, although he viewed that as unlikely. Mr Fletcher was unable to estimate the range of the shot which had caused the injury to the right side of Mrs Bamber's chest.
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Seems to be the lawyer is suggesting there were 8 shots. However this did not match the bullet casings.
The COA 17 years later had it down as 7.
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The defence case is that Mrs Bamber sustained 8 gunshot wounds: 7 entry wounds, 3 exit wounds and 1 non-penetrating wound. This is based on the pathological evidence that the gouge mark to her chest could have been caused by a non-penetrating wound independent of all others.
The above is supported by bullets found in the bedroom: DRH 35 x 2, DRH 5 and DRH 9: 3 from the exit wounds and 1 from the non-pentrating wound. And casings: DRH 3,4,6, 7 x 2, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 43: 8 x gunshot wounds Mrs Bamber and 4 x gunshot wounds Mr Bamber.
The prosecution case is that Mrs Bamber sustained 7 gunshot wounds: 7 entry wounds and 3 exit wounds. This is based on the pathological evidence that the gouge mark to her chest could have been caused by a bullet richochet from one of the other wounds.
The above isn't supported by the bullets found in the bedroom since four were found and the above scenario only requires 3. It also means there's 1 casing too many. Unless you buy into the theory that the rifle malfuntioned as Bamber was walking up the stairs and he ejected a casing on the landing or someone inadvertently carried it upstairs under foot or on clothing. These explanations account for only 3 casings found in the kitchen when Mr Bamber clearly sustained 4 gunshot wounds there.
The most straightforward explanation is that 1 casing (about 5mm x 5mm) was lost in the kitchen. Mrs Bamber sustained 8 gunshot wounds: 7 entry wounds, 3 exit wounds, 1 non-penetrating wound with the four bullets relating to her gunshot wounds. 11 casings found in the bedroom and 1 on the landing relate to Mrs Bamber's 8 wounds and Mr Bamber's 4 wounds.
Obviously I have not included the 2 casings found near Sheila's head as these clearly relate to her 2 gunshot wounds.
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The defence case is that Mrs Bamber sustained 8 gunshot wounds: 7 entry wounds, 3 exit wounds and 1 non-penetrating wound. This is based on the pathological evidence that the gouge mark to her chest could have been caused by a non-penetrating wound independent of all others.
The above is supported by bullets found in the bedroom: DRH 35 x 2, DRH 5 and DRH 9: 3 from the exit wounds and 1 from the non-pentrating wound. And casings: DRH 3,4,6, 7 x 2, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 43: 8 x gunshot wounds Mrs Bamber and 4 x gunshot wounds Mr Bamber.
The prosecution case is that Mrs Bamber sustained 7 gunshot wounds: 7 entry wounds and 3 exit wounds. This is based on the pathological evidence that the gouge mark to her chest could have been caused by a bullet richochet from one of the other wounds.
The above isn't supported by the bullets found in the bedroom since four were found and the above scenario only requires 3. It also means there's 1 casing too many. Unless you buy into the theory that the rifle malfuntioned as Bamber was walking up the stairs and he ejected a casing on the landing or someone inadvertently carried it upstairs under foot or on clothing. These explanations account for only 3 casings found in the kitchen when Mr Bamber clearly sustained 4 gunshot wounds there.
The most straightforward explanation is that 1 casing (about 5mm x 5mm) was lost in the kitchen. Mrs Bamber sustained 8 gunshot wounds: 7 entry wounds, 3 exit wounds, 1 non-penetrating wound with the four bullets relating to her gunshot wounds. 11 casings found in the bedroom and 1 on the landing relate to Mrs Bamber's 8 wounds and Mr Bamber's 4 wounds.
Obviously I have not included the 2 casings found near Sheila's head as these clearly relate to her 2 gunshot wounds.
I will go by Julie's WS, which says the twins were shot first. Which would have been one shot each.
Leaving 9 bullets for June & Nevill who were sleeping. Five to June, 4 to Nevill.
Maybe Bamber shot June 3 times after he returned upstairs from the kitchen fight.
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How it can be open to interpretation when two highly qualified pathologists of long experience agree either one of the headshots Mrs Bamber sustained would have rendered her incapable of involuntary movement thereafter? The 2 shots to the head were immediately fatal.
Mrs Bamber wasn't crawling around. The pathological evidence makes it clear she was standing having sustained the 6 not immediately fatal body shots evidenced by the blood staining.
Of course you know more than two highly qualified pathologists of long experience ::)
You are now saying you believe Mrs Bamber's body was moved prior to soc images. Would that be before or after four casings were moved? ::)
We all have brains its how they're used or not that counts. :P
It's simply unbelievable that you are the first to upload podcasts and media interviews with the CT, which you appear to be fully supportive of, and yet are quite scathing about the pathological evidence. ::)
You have clearly not read my posts.
My scenario is that June was not shot in bed, she was shot while standing (except for the last shot). I must have repeated this now about 20 times. It's Adam and Steve who say she was lying down or propped-up, etc. while shot.
We can't know if she was crawling around or not, but let's put it this way: if a lady in her sixties is shot six times, and she's still alive, she might well be crawling around.
If you wish to respond to my posts, please ensure you read what I have said first. Please do not goad me on this Forum.
As for June's body being moved, I've explained that too and I think the final recorded position of June's body strongly suggests she was moved. I'm not inclined to enter into a constructive dialogue with you because, like Adam, you don't listen. You're just here to jump in and 'correct' me for ego purposes.
Evidence must be interpreted. If we were to just treat what experts say as rigid, immoveable, literal Gospel, there would be few or no criminal appeals.
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Say what you all like, you're only arguing for arguments sake----Jeremy is innocent !
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You have clearly not read my posts.
My scenario is that June was not shot in bed, she was shot while standing (except for the last shot). I must have repeated this now about 20 times. It's Adam and Steve who say she was lying down or propped-up, etc. while shot.
We can't know if she was crawling around or not, but let's put it this way: if a lady in her sixties is shot six times, and she's still alive, she might well be crawling around.
If you wish to respond to my posts, please ensure you read what I have said first. Please do not goad me on this Forum.
As for June's body being moved, I've explained that too and I think the final recorded position of June's body strongly suggests she was moved. I'm not inclined to enter into a constructive dialogue with you because, like Adam, you don't listen. You're just here to jump in and 'correct' me for ego purposes.
The evidence is she was shot in bed.
Scenario's must match the evidence.
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Say what you all like, you're only arguing for arguments sake----Jeremy is innocent !
I am not just arguing for argument's sake.
I may add that I am not 'arguing' at all, actually. The arguments arise because some people don't listen to what others are saying.
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You talk a load of crap,Adam ! I'm not listening to you----not that I ever did but you're monotonous !
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147. The precise sequence of the killings was unclear.
June Bamber was shot whilst still lying in bed but had managed to get up and walk a few steps before she collapsed and died by the main bedroom door
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Ignore !
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You have clearly not read my posts.
My scenario is that June was not shot in bed, she was shot while standing (except for the last shot). I must have repeated this now about 20 times. It's Adam and Steve who say she was lying down or propped-up, etc. while shot.
We can't know if she was crawling around or not, but let's put it this way: if a lady in her sixties is shot six times, and she's still alive, she might well be crawling around.
If you wish to respond to my posts, please ensure you read what I have said first. Please do not goad me on this Forum.
As for June's body being moved, I've explained that too and I think the final recorded position of June's body strongly suggests she was moved. I'm not inclined to enter into a constructive dialogue with you because, like Adam, you don't listen. You're just here to jump in and 'correct' me for ego purposes.
Evidence must be interpreted. If we were to just treat what experts say as rigid, immoveable, literal Gospel, there would be few or no criminal appeals.
Scenarios need to match the ballistics and pathological evidence. Your scenarios do not match either.
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https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,887.0.html
Page 1 has a photo of June's side of the bed. Confirming she was shot there.
Obviously both June & Nevill would be asleep when Bamber entered.
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Scenarios need to match the ballistics and pathological evidence. Your scenarios do not match either.
QC's argument against my scenario is Nevill wouldn't run from a shooting Bamber.
Although the evidence shows he did.
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The defence case is that Mrs Bamber sustained 8 gunshot wounds: 7 entry wounds, 3 exit wounds and 1 non-penetrating wound. This is based on the pathological evidence that the gouge mark to her chest could have been caused by a non-penetrating wound independent of all others.
The above is supported by bullets found in the bedroom: DRH 35 x 2, DRH 5 and DRH 9: 3 from the exit wounds and 1 from the non-pentrating wound. And casings: DRH 3,4,6, 7 x 2, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 43: 8 x gunshot wounds Mrs Bamber and 4 x gunshot wounds Mr Bamber.
The prosecution case is that Mrs Bamber sustained 7 gunshot wounds: 7 entry wounds and 3 exit wounds. This is based on the pathological evidence that the gouge mark to her chest could have been caused by a bullet richochet from one of the other wounds.
The above isn't supported by the bullets found in the bedroom since four were found and the above scenario only requires 3. It also means there's 1 casing too many. Unless you buy into the theory that the rifle malfuntioned as Bamber was walking up the stairs and he ejected a casing on the landing or someone inadvertently carried it upstairs under foot or on clothing. These explanations account for only 3 casings found in the kitchen when Mr Bamber clearly sustained 4 gunshot wounds there.
The most straightforward explanation is that 1 casing (about 5mm x 5mm) was lost in the kitchen. Mrs Bamber sustained 8 gunshot wounds: 7 entry wounds, 3 exit wounds, 1 non-penetrating wound with the four bullets relating to her gunshot wounds. 11 casings found in the bedroom and 1 on the landing relate to Mrs Bamber's 8 wounds and Mr Bamber's 4 wounds.
Obviously I have not included the 2 casings found near Sheila's head as these clearly relate to her 2 gunshot wounds.
I don't believe we can entirely rely on the position of the casings and bullets, but if we are going to do so, then how do they demonstrate that Nevill was shot in the main bedroom? It's being assumed that if there are four casings left, then four wounds must have been inflicted to Nevill in that same room, but the casings seem to be in the wrong place to account for that. I appreciate that they will bounce off walls and so forth (one reason we can't rely on the position recorded), but if Nevill is shot in the main bedroom, there should be more casings on the bed itself and near Sheila's body, not in the area near June's side of the bed. I suppose there is a possibility that Jeremy fired shots to Nevill while facing the exit to the main landing, and the cartridge cases then bounced off the northside wall of the main bedroom and ended up near where June's body would come to a rest.
I think either the casings have been moved within the main bedroom, or a combination of circumstances has occurred in which maybe one or two bullets were never recovered in the main bedroom and Nevill was shot on the main stairs and one or two casings have somehow ended up in the main bedroom, probably because they bounced off the walls and initially ended up on the main landing near the entrance to the main bedroom. In either situation, the movement of the casings was probably accidental/inadvertent.
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Scenarios need to match the ballistics and pathological evidence. Your scenarios do not match either.
Yes they do - broadly speaking. No scenario, not even the prosecution's, has ever matched the evidence exactly, and your interpretation of the evidence may differ to mine!
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I don't believe we can entirely rely on the position of the casings and bullets, but if we are going to do so, then how do they demonstrate that Nevill was shot in the main bedroom? It's being assumed that if there are four casings left, then four wounds must have been inflicted to Nevill in that same room, but the casings seem to be in the wrong place to account for that. I appreciate that they will bounce off walls and so forth (one reason we can't rely on the position recorded), but if Nevill is shot in the main bedroom, there should be more casings on the bed itself and near Sheila's body, not in the area near June's side of the bed. I suppose there is a possibility that Jeremy fired shots to Nevill while facing the exit to the main landing, and the cartridge cases then bounced off the northside wall of the main bedroom and ended up near where June's body would come to a rest.
I think either the casings have been moved within the main bedroom, or a combination of circumstances has occurred in which maybe one or two bullets were never recovered in the main bedroom and Nevill was shot on the main stairs and one or two casings have somehow ended up in the main bedroom, probably because they bounced off the walls and initially ended up on the main landing near the entrance to the main bedroom. In either situation, the movement of the casings was probably accidental/inadvertent.
Because the casings are in there.
It was around 2am, Nevill would be in bed. His bed attire supports this.
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Because the casings are in there.
It was around 2am, Nevill would be in bed. His bed attire supports this.
OK, so are you now conceding that artefacts such as cartridge cases and bullets can be moved around a crime scene unintentionally?
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I don't believe we can entirely rely on the position of the casings and bullets, but if we are going to do so, then how do they demonstrate that Nevill was shot in the main bedroom? It's being assumed that if there are four casings left, then four wounds must have been inflicted to Nevill in that same room, but the casings seem to be in the wrong place to account for that. I appreciate that they will bounce off walls and so forth (one reason we can't rely on the position recorded), but if Nevill is shot in the main bedroom, there should be more casings on the bed itself and near Sheila's body, not in the area near June's side of the bed. I suppose there is a possibility that Jeremy fired shots to Nevill while facing the exit to the main landing, and the cartridge cases then bounced off the northside wall of the main bedroom and ended up near where June's body would come to a rest.
I think either the casings have been moved within the main bedroom, or a combination of circumstances has occurred in which maybe one or two bullets were never recovered in the main bedroom and Nevill was shot on the main stairs and one or two casings have somehow ended up in the main bedroom, probably because they bounced off the walls and initially ended up on the main landing near the entrance to the main bedroom. In either situation, the movement of the casings was probably accidental/inadvertent.
Really?
Are you a crime scene expert?
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OK, so are you now conceding that artefacts such as cartridge cases and bullets can be moved around a crime scene unintentionally?
Am I?
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Really?
Are you a crime scene expert?
Are you a crime scene expert, Adam?
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147. The precise sequence of the killings was unclear.
June Bamber was shot whilst still lying in bed but had managed to get up and walk a few steps before she collapsed and died by the main bedroom door
There has never been any dispute that Mrs Bamber was shot x 2 with her head on the pillow and sustained either 3 or 4 gunshot wounds as she was lifting herself out of bed (3 or 4 disputed as above). She then walked (or moved in some way under her own steam) around the bed to Mr Bamber's side and back again where she sustained the 2 immediately fatal gunshot wounds to the head where she was found. There's no evidence as to what position she may have been in just prior to sustaining the 2 immediately fatal head wounds. Her body may have jerked and fallen awkwardly.
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Both supporters & guilters have to accept the evidence.
Bamber shot Nevill & June 9 times in the opening bedroom salvo.
Which is not surprising as Bamber caught them by surprise.
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Am I?
Are you avoiding the question?
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Both supporters & guilters have to accept the evidence.
Bamber shot Nevill & June 9 times in the opening bedroom salvo.
Which is not surprising as Bamber caught them by surprise.
If the evidence produced an unlikely scenario. Or a scenario could not be produced, then the evidence could be challenged. However -
Bamber shot Nevill & June 9 times in their bed/bedroom at around 2am.
Nothing unusual here. It was a silent massacre attempt.
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Both supporters & guilters have to accept the evidence.
Bamber shot Nevill & June 9 times in the opening bedroom salvo.
Which is not surprising as Bamber caught them by surprise.
The evidence is ambigious with regards to whether the gouge wound sustained by Mrs Bamber was caused by a gunshot wound completely independent of others or whether it was caused by a richochet from an exit wound ie in effect a secondary wound from a gunshot wound. Ed Lawson went through this with Malcolm Fletcher at trial and through a process of elimination Fletcher agreed it was the former.
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The evidence is ambigious with regards to whether the gouge wound sustained by Mrs Bamber was caused by a gunshot wound completely independent of others or whether it was caused by a richochet from an exit wound ie in effect a secondary wound from a gunshot wound. Ed Lawson went through this with Malcolm Fletcher at trial and through a process of elimination Fletcher agreed it was the former.
That would mean Bamber entered the main bedroom first. With 10 bullets.
Firing 6 into June & 4 into Nevill.
The twins & Sheila continued sleeping throughout the kitchen fight.
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That would mean Bamber entered the main bedroom first. With 10 bullets.
Firing 6 into June & 4 into Nevill.
The twins & Sheila continued sleeping throughout the kitchen fight.
Sorry Sheila may have woken & walked to her final resting place.
The evidence shows the twins would have slept through the opening upstairs shots & kitchen fight if they were not shot first.
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Sorry Sheila may have woken & walked to her final resting place.
The evidence shows the twins would have slept through the opening upstairs shots & kitchen fight if they were not shot first.
She walked there of her own accord?
Anyway, if Jeremy is shooting Nevill four times in the main bedroom as Nevill flees, I have some questions:
At what angle are these shots?
In which direction is Jeremy facing for each shot?
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It would be easier for Bamber to go upstairs with 11 bullets. Then shoot the twins (once each), then shoot June & Nevill.
This kills/negates 4 of the 5 targets. If everything goes to plan.
However CC is entitled to believe Bamber went upstairs with 10 bullets & went straight to the main bedroom.
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It would be easier for Bamber to go upstairs with 11 bullets. Then shoot the twins (once each), then shoot June & Nevill.
This kills/negates 4 of the 5 targets. If everything goes to plan.
However CC is entitled to believe Bamber went upstairs with 10 bullets & went straight to the main bedroom.
I will go by the COA & Julie's WS & say Bamber went upstairs with 11 bullets.
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She walked there of her own accord?
Anyway, if Jeremy is shooting Nevill four times in the main bedroom as Nevill flees, I have some questions:
At what angle are these shots?
In which direction is Jeremy facing for each shot?
I have already said all of Bamber's 9 shots were from June's side of the bed. As the evidence shows.
They would have all been downward shots as Nevill & June were in bed/getting out of bed.
Bamber's two torso shots into Nevill would have been when the rifle was pointing forwards. Not downwards. Nevill was now standing up.
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It gets worse ::)
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She walked there of her own accord?
Anyway, if Jeremy is shooting Nevill four times in the main bedroom as Nevill flees, I have some questions:
At what angle are these shots?
In which direction is Jeremy facing for each shot?
If she woke mid massacre. Which I do not believe she did.
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I have already said all of Bamber's 9 shots were from June's side of the bed. As the evidence shows.
They would have all been downward shots as Nevill & June were in bed/getting out of bed.
Bamber's two torso shots into Nevill would have been when the rifle was pointing forwards. Not downwards. Nevill was now standing up.
OK, so that means there should be more cartridge cases on the bed and/or by Sheila's body and/or possibly in the area at the foot of the bed. Would you accept this? And if so, would you accept that casings and bullets were moved around?
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OK, so that means there should be more cartridge cases on the bed and/or by Sheila's body and/or possibly in the area at the foot of the bed. Would you accept this? And if so, would you accept that casings and bullets were moved around?
Bamber shot June & Nevill from Junes side of the bed = 9 casings.
Sheila was shot on Nevill's side of the bed = 2 casings.
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Were you there Adam ?
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Not sure what the issue is.
Bamber entered the bedroom & shot June & Nevill 9 times from June's side of the bed.
Sounds like a silent massacre attempt to me.
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Bamber shot June & Nevill from Junes side of the bed = 9 casings.
Sheila was shot on Nevill's side of the bed = 2 casings.
You're not answering my question, either because you don't understand what I am asking you or you know what I am asking you and you don't want to admit that you could be wrong.
If, as you and Cambridgecutie claim, we must treat the SOC diagram as the written Gospel, then your scenario is wrong. Your scenario is wrong anyway, as it is contradicted by the blood and pathological evidence.
Of course, you could concede that we cannot rely on the recorded position of the cartridge cases and bullets. They were moved.
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Were you there Adam ?
Yes, he was. Mike has information.
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You're not answering my question, either because you don't understand what I am asking you or you know what I am asking you and you don't want to admit that you could be wrong.
If, as you and Cambridgecutie claim, we must treat the SOC diagram as the written Gospel, then your scenario is wrong. Your scenario is wrong anyway, as it is contradicted by the blood and pathological evidence.
Of course, you could concede that we cannot rely on the recorded position of the cartridge cases and bullets. They were moved.
I'll post my scenario again.
The evidence was followed.
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I'll post my scenario again.
The evidence was followed.
You mean you've decided to amend your scenario? If so, all credit to you.
But if you're just going to re-post what you've already posted, please don't bother. I've read it already and I'm sure everybody else has.
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What would have been a mind boggler was if either Nevill or June were fully dressed & wearing shoes.
However they were in their sleeping attire. So both shot in/by the bed.
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What would have been a mind boggler was if either Nevill or June were fully dressed & wearing shoes.
However they were in their sleeping attire. So both shot in/by the bed.
Common sense would suggest something along these lines, yes, but....common sense can sometimes lead us to the wrong conclusions.
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What would have been a mind boggler was if either Nevill or June were fully dressed & wearing shoes.
However they were in their sleeping attire. So both shot in/by the bed.
It was 2am. Past my bedtime on a Tuesday & I'm decades younger.
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It was 2am. Past my bedtime on a Tuesday & I'm decades younger.
I'd assumed you were even younger than that Adam. I thought you were 21. You seem full of life and vigour.
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I'll post my scenario again.
The evidence was followed.
Do not forget that Crispy had ran amok before hiding under the bed. How many got moved. When the TFG entered the bedroom they would not be looking at the floor and they may have moved some too.
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I'd assumed you were even younger than that Adam. I thought you were 21. You seem full of life and vigour.
That is what the beautiful women I make love to, say.
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That is what the beautiful women I make love to, say.
This is where your moral support could come into play, Adam. You need to PM me and other users with hints and tips, you smoothie.
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That is what the beautiful women I make love to, say.
You wish ! :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :))
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This is where your moral support could come into play, Adam. You need to PM me and other users with hints and tips, you smoothie.
https://youtu.be/3Vimb_RuN7c
Things don't always go to plan. Intially.
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I'm becoming more and more suspicious because of Adam knowing so much !
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You know what's said about those who can't keep their traps shut, helping police with their inquiries ? Mmm
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I'm becoming more and more suspicious because of Adam knowing so much !
Aha!!! Could Adam be JB admitting to the crime incognito?
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Aha!!! Could Adam be JB admitting to the crime incognito?
You wouldn't know.
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https://youtu.be/3Vimb_RuN7c
Things don't always go to plan. Intially.
Thanks Adam. This could be part of a new video series. Adam's Pick Up Tips - Part One: Play It Cool.