Significance of two double marked bullet cases, found in kitchen?

[bob]

NGB... is it common for police to set up a completely new inquiry (with new refs etc) when the focus changes, as it did here from a murder-suicide investigation to a multiple murder? I get the impression that a lot of the information which the defence consider is being witheld would have come from the documentation of the initial investigation, and maybe the defence didn't get this because it wasn't part of the second part of the official investigation?

[ngb1066]

NGB... is it common for police to set up a completely new inquiry (with new refs etc) when the focus changes, as it did here from a murder-suicide investigation to a multiple murder? I get the impression that a lot of the information which the defence consider is being witheld would have come from the documentation of the initial investigation, and maybe the defence didn't get this because it wasn't part of the second part of the official investigation?

Bob  -  I am not sure about the standard police practice in a situation such as this.  Mike Tesko has posted about the creation of a new file by Essex Police when it was decided to treat Jeremy Bamber as a murder suspect.  The creation of a new case file in itself is not in itself sinister in my view.  However, it appears that the second file did not contain all of the material which was in the first file, and in addition a number of witness statements contained in the first file were edited or altered before becoming part of the second file.  Jeremy Bamber's team have been trying to obtain the full unedited contents of the original file, but for some reason this has been strenuously resisted by Essex Police.  I can see no legitimate reason for this.  What have they got to hide?  Evidence is evidence whichever file number is attributed to it and the first statements made by witnesses are likely to be far more helpful to an impartial jury than later edited or amended ones.

 

[Roch]

NGB... is it common for police to set up a completely new inquiry (with new refs etc) when the focus changes, as it did here from a murder-suicide investigation to a multiple murder? I get the impression that a lot of the information which the defence consider is being witheld would have come from the documentation of the initial investigation, and maybe the defence didn't get this because it wasn't part of the second part of the official investigation?

Bob  -  I am not sure about the standard police practice in a situation such as this.  Mike Tesko has posted about the creation of a new file by Essex Police when it was decided to treat Jeremy Bamber as a murder suspect.  The creation of a new case file in itself is not in itself sinister in my view.  However, it appears that the second file did not contain all of the material which was in the first file, and in addition a number of witness statements contained in the first file were edited or altered before becoming part of the second file.  Jeremy Bamber's team have been trying to obtain the full unedited contents of the original file, but for some reason this has been strenuously resisted by Essex Police.  I can see no legitimate reason for this.  What have they got to hide?  Evidence is evidence whichever file number is attributed to it and the first statements made by witnesses are likely to be far more helpful to an impartial jury than later edited or amended ones.

 

   This view makes a lot of sense to me  +1

[bob]

NGB... is it common for police to set up a completely new inquiry (with new refs etc) when the focus changes, as it did here from a murder-suicide investigation to a multiple murder? I get the impression that a lot of the information which the defence consider is being witheld would have come from the documentation of the initial investigation, and maybe the defence didn't get this because it wasn't part of the second part of the official investigation?

Bob  -  I am not sure about the standard police practice in a situation such as this.  Mike Tesko has posted about the creation of a new file by Essex Police when it was decided to treat Jeremy Bamber as a murder suspect.  The creation of a new case file in itself is not in itself sinister in my view.  However, it appears that the second file did not contain all of the material which was in the first file, and in addition a number of witness statements contained in the first file were edited or altered before becoming part of the second file.  Jeremy Bamber's team have been trying to obtain the full unedited contents of the original file, but for some reason this has been strenuously resisted by Essex Police.  I can see no legitimate reason for this.  What have they got to hide?  Evidence is evidence whichever file number is attributed to it and the first statements made by witnesses are likely to be far more helpful to an impartial jury than later edited or amended ones.

 

   This view makes a lot of sense to me  +1

I agree - thanks for the insight NGB

[mike tesko]

NGB... is it common for police to set up a completely new inquiry (with new refs etc) when the focus changes, as it did here from a murder-suicide investigation to a multiple murder? I get the impression that a lot of the information which the defence consider is being witheld would have come from the documentation of the initial investigation, and maybe the defence didn't get this because it wasn't part of the second part of the official investigation?

Bob  -  I am not sure about the standard police practice in a situation such as this.  Mike Tesko has posted about the creation of a new file by Essex Police when it was decided to treat Jeremy Bamber as a murder suspect.  The creation of a new case file in itself is not in itself sinister in my view.  However, it appears that the second file did not contain all of the material which was in the first file, and in addition a number of witness statements contained in the first file were edited or altered before becoming part of the second file.  Jeremy Bamber's team have been trying to obtain the full unedited contents of the original file, but for some reason this has been strenuously resisted by Essex Police.  I can see no legitimate reason for this.  What have they got to hide?  Evidence is evidence whichever file number is attributed to it and the first statements made by witnesses are likely to be far more helpful to an impartial jury than later edited or amended ones.

 

... The evidence about  (a) two bodies downstairs, and three bodies upstairs, (b) the figure at the bedroom window, (c) the fact that Shiela was shot once downstairs, (d) once upstairs, (e) that more than one weapon was used in the shootings, and (f) Bamber rifle was already leaning against the bedroom window at the time Shiela was found downstairs in the kitchen, and that she only took possession of it, once she got upstairs, at which stage she killed herself by use of it - were all features and part of the information and evidence gathered under the original file (SC/688/85) which was irrellevent whilst ever the case continued to be investigated as 'four murders and a suicide', but as soon as the emphasis changed, and jeremy became a suspect, all of these features had to be suppressed, because any one of these points, individually, or collectively, had the potential to expose Jeremy Bambers convictions and sentences, as nothing short of a scandal...

[paulg]

Mike, i really think the Sheila shot downstairs is a non starter, but continue with it if you want.

Me and Si sat up late last night discussing this case, and think the bullet case maping is really strange. Yes we both know they could have been kicked about, trodden on etc...but, only 3 cases are found in the kitchen. Nevill in our opinion received 4 likely fatal shots to the head, why is there only 3 cases in the kitchen? Was one case(2 cases if Sheila is shot in kitchen)  walked upstairs? How did Nevill get to the kitchen if a shot to the brain was received upstairs? Was the beating of Nevill staged, along with the phone call, so the hit man could ring Jeremy?

Has Jeremys defence raised this point about the bullet cases in the kitchen?

[mike tesko]

Mike, i really think the Sheila shot downstairs is a non starter, but continue with it if you want.

Me and Si sat up late last night discussing this case, and think the bullet case maping is really strange. Yes we both know they could have been kicked about, trodden on etc...but, only 3 cases are found in the kitchen. Nevill in our opinion received 4 likely fatal shots to the head, why is there only 3 cases in the kitchen? Was one case(2 cases if Sheila is shot in kitchen)  walked upstairs? How did Nevill get to the kitchen if a shot to the brain was received upstairs? Was the beating of Nevill staged, along with the phone call, so the hit man could ring Jeremy?

Has Jeremys defence raised this point about the bullet cases in the kitchen?

.....................................

Shooting of Sheila downstairs did happen, that's where they first found her, and she was shot by use of a different gun (probably the .22 air rifle). Linked to this shooting, is the undisclosed officers report, and the fact that PS Woodcocks witness statement has missed pages, and one page in particular, which describes how the armed police first entered the kitchen, has been typed out by use of a completely different typewriter to the main body of the statement. Sheila was shot downstairs, and it was at this stage that most of the blood on the front upper right hand side of her nightdress, stained it there - additionally, there was ample time between the occasion she was initially shot whilst downstairs in the kitchen, and when she ended upstairs in the bedroom in time for the second shot to be inflicted by use of the other gun, for the blood from the neck wound to have dried and coagulated, so that once she became upright and mobile, blood did not start to run out of the wound because it had started to seal and coagulate...

It is also no coincidence that police swapped over the bullet (PV/20) that is linked to the non fatal shot that she received downstairs, since if they had not tampered with it, you would have ended up with two different bullets that could not have been fired by use of the same gun...

If the nature of the investigation had not changed, from SC/688/85 (four murders and a suicide) to SC/786/85 (five murders) it would not have been felt necessary to cover any of these happenings and occurraences up, but because the nature of the case did change, features like these had to be taken out of the equation - which is what they did...

[paulg]

Mike, ignore the Sheila shot downstairs, we're both not going to budge here.

4 likely fatal shots to Nevills head, only 3 bullet cases in the kitchen, i'd like your thoughts on this.

I've got to go and watch a DVD with the kids, i look forward to reading your reply later.

[mike tesko]

When the relatives forced the nature of the investigation to change, Essex police found themselves at a cross roads - they could either have admitted what really did happen, and how they attempted to cover up for inefficiencies in the investigation (SC/688/85) or go along with the relatives and build a false case against Jeremy, by making him the number 1 suspect...

They chose the latter option...

[mike tesko]

Mike, ignore the Sheila shot downstairs, we're both not going to budge here.

4 likely fatal shots to Nevills head, only 3 bullet cases in the kitchen, i'd like your thoughts on this.

I've got to go and watch a DVD with the kids, i look forward to reading your reply later.

-------------

Sorry, I cannot ignore that Sheila was shot downstairs, because she was...

Anyone who chooses to believe that Sheila was shot twice upstairs should think again, and ask yourselves this question:-

If Sheila was shot twice upstairs in the bedroom (as Essex police would have us all believe) how did the triangular blood stain on the front upper right hand side of her nightdress, have blood upon it that ran in a vertical fashion, despite the fact that she was laid on the bedroom floor horizontally?

The angle of the blood that can be seen to run from the corners of Sheila's mouth, and both entry wounds on her throat, cannot be reconciled with the area of triangular blood on the nightdress, by adopting the scenario which Essex police want everyone to accept. It could not (did not) happen like they said, they lie, and there has to be a good reason for them to lie, they lie about this because they have got something to hide, the police at the scene who carried out this operation are responsible for Sheila Caffell having died upstairs in the bedroom, because this could have been prevented had they kept a close eye on the situation downstairs in the region of the kitchen when they first discovered Sheila's body there...

Police are responsible for Sheila dying in the bedroom, irrespective of whether or not, she shot herself, there at least once...

[Roch]

Mike, i really think the Sheila shot downstairs is a non starter, but continue with it if you want.

Me and Si sat up late last night discussing this case, and think the bullet case maping is really strange. Yes we both know they could have been kicked about, trodden on etc...but, only 3 cases are found in the kitchen. Nevill in our opinion received 4 likely fatal shots to the head, why is there only 3 cases in the kitchen? Was one case(2 cases if Sheila is shot in kitchen)  walked upstairs? How did Nevill get to the kitchen if a shot to the brain was received upstairs? Was the beating of Nevill staged, along with the phone call, so the hit man could ring Jeremy?

Has Jeremys defence raised this point about the bullet cases in the kitchen?

.....................................

Shooting of Sheila downstairs did happen, that's where they first found her, and she was shot by use of a different gun (probably the .22 air rifle). Linked to this shooting, is the undisclosed officers report, and the fact that PS Woodcocks witness statement has missed pages, and one page in particular, which describes how the armed police first entered the kitchen, has been typed out by use of a completely different typewriter to the main body of the statement. Sheila was shot downstairs, and it was at this stage that most of the blood on the front upper right hand side of her nightdress, stained it there - additionally, there was ample time between the occasion she was initially shot whilst downstairs in the kitchen, and when she ended upstairs in the bedroom in time for the second shot to be inflicted by use of the other gun, for the blood from the neck wound to have dried and coagulated, so that once she became upright and mobile, blood did not start to run out of the wound because it had started to seal and coagulate...

It is also no coincidence that police swapped over the bullet (PV/20) that is linked to the non fatal shot that she received downstairs, since if they had not tampered with it, you would have ended up with two different bullets that could not have been fired by use of the same gun...

If the nature of the investigation had not changed, from SC/688/85 (four murders and a suicide) to SC/786/85 (five murders) it would not have been felt necessary to cover any of these happenings and occurraences up, but because the nature of the case did change, features like these had to be taken out of the equation - which is what they did...

Mike, a shaving cut seems to bleed forever.  If there was a 'shooting incident in the kitchen' ... I can't see how the neck wound would have sealed with coagulated blood, in time for the move upstairs and the second shot etc. 

[mike tesko]

If you add to this, the fact that I saw a crime scene photograph of Sheila laid out on the bed, when I visited Ewen Smiths office in Birmingham in 2003 - at a time when there was no blood running from the corners of her mouth, it means that police moved Sheila's body from the bed, onto the floor and that they then made a false claim of having found her body on the floor with the gun on top of it, when all along her body was originally found on the bed, and the rifle that was later attributed as being on top of her body, was leaning up against the bedroom window at the time the raid team forced their way into the farmhouse at just after 7:30am...

[mike tesko]

Mike, i really think the Sheila shot downstairs is a non starter, but continue with it if you want.

Me and Si sat up late last night discussing this case, and think the bullet case maping is really strange. Yes we both know they could have been kicked about, trodden on etc...but, only 3 cases are found in the kitchen. Nevill in our opinion received 4 likely fatal shots to the head, why is there only 3 cases in the kitchen? Was one case(2 cases if Sheila is shot in kitchen)  walked upstairs? How did Nevill get to the kitchen if a shot to the brain was received upstairs? Was the beating of Nevill staged, along with the phone call, so the hit man could ring Jeremy?

Has Jeremys defence raised this point about the bullet cases in the kitchen?

.....................................

Shooting of Sheila downstairs did happen, that's where they first found her, and she was shot by use of a different gun (probably the .22 air rifle). Linked to this shooting, is the undisclosed officers report, and the fact that PS Woodcocks witness statement has missed pages, and one page in particular, which describes how the armed police first entered the kitchen, has been typed out by use of a completely different typewriter to the main body of the statement. Sheila was shot downstairs, and it was at this stage that most of the blood on the front upper right hand side of her nightdress, stained it there - additionally, there was ample time between the occasion she was initially shot whilst downstairs in the kitchen, and when she ended upstairs in the bedroom in time for the second shot to be inflicted by use of the other gun, for the blood from the neck wound to have dried and coagulated, so that once she became upright and mobile, blood did not start to run out of the wound because it had started to seal and coagulate...

It is also no coincidence that police swapped over the bullet (PV/20) that is linked to the non fatal shot that she received downstairs, since if they had not tampered with it, you would have ended up with two different bullets that could not have been fired by use of the same gun...

If the nature of the investigation had not changed, from SC/688/85 (four murders and a suicide) to SC/786/85 (five murders) it would not have been felt necessary to cover any of these happenings and occurraences up, but because the nature of the case did change, features like these had to be taken out of the equation - which is what they did...

Mike, a shaving cut seems to bleed forever.  If there was a 'shooting incident in the kitchen' ... I can't see how the neck wound would have sealed with coagulated blood, in time for the move upstairs and the second shot etc.

---------------------

It would depend upon how badly the original wound bled after it was inflicted downstairs, and before she regained consciousness, and fled upstairs. One thing that we do know is that there was a large blood loss from the initial shot which ran down her nightdress in a vertical fashion, or at a time when She may have been stood upright and moving around. What I would suggest as to the correct interpretation of how that distinctive bloodstain got there on the front upper part of her nightdress, was by way of Sheila using the fingers of her right hand to press onto the bullet entry wound on the right side of her neck, and that as she was upright and walking around with her hand to her neck, blood ran down and into the folds of her arm and pooled there...

[Reader]

By Jeremy's own statement the call HE made to the Police lasted 10-11 minutes including the time he was kept on hold.

Jeremy didn't specify 10-11 minutes in his statement, and the police logs don't show how long his call lasted.

The original and only call was timed by CD at 3.26 and the report reissued by another officer at 3.36

The original call identified that Mr Bamber had a collection of shotguns and 410's

No, it's clear that MB (Malcolm Bonnett) at police headquarters logged a call received at 3:26 from an officer identified as CD(1990). That officer was Pc West, based at Chelmsford police station (a separate location that apparently had code CD), who logged receiving a call from Jeremy at 3:36. If there was only one call to the police, Pc West logged the time incorrectly, and was not reissuing a report already made.

MB's log refers to "Sheila Bamber, aged 26 yrs" whereas Pc West's log refers to Sheila's age as being 27. If there was only one call to the police, this discrepancy was a second mistake. MB's log also states "Message passed to CD by the son of Mr Bamber, after the phone went dead. Mr Bamber has a collection of shotguns and .410's." The message referred to needn't be the same message as that already logged on the form as received at 3:26.

If Nevill called the police at 3:26 and Jeremy separately called them at 3:36, some information about those calls has been suppressed, but the available logs are consistent.

[Roch]

By Jeremy's own statement the call HE made to the Police lasted 10-11 minutes including the time he was kept on hold.

Jeremy didn't specify 10-11 minutes in his statement, and the police logs don't show how long his call lasted.

The original and only call was timed by CD at 3.26 and the report reissued by another officer at 3.36

The original call identified that Mr Bamber had a collection of shotguns and 410's

No, it's clear that MB (Malcolm Bonnett) at police headquarters logged a call received at 3:26 from an officer identified as CD(1990). That officer was Pc West, based at Chelmsford police station (a separate location that apparently had code CD), who logged receiving a call from Jeremy at 3:36. If there was only one call to the police, Pc West logged the time incorrectly, and was not reissuing a report already made.

MB's log refers to "Sheila Bamber, aged 26 yrs" whereas Pc West's log refers to Sheila's age as being 27. If there was only one call to the police, this discrepancy was a second mistake. MB's log also states "Message passed to CD by the son of Mr Bamber, after the phone went dead. Mr Bamber has a collection of shotguns and .410's." The message referred to needn't be the same message as that already logged on the form as received at 3:26.

If Nevill called the police at 3:26 and Jeremy separately called them at 3:36, some information about those calls has been suppressed, but the available logs are consistent.

Reader, you really should post on this forum more often.  You seem to strive for a clinical examination of the available documents.