Significance of two double marked bullet cases, found in kitchen?

[paulg]

Mike, i really think the Sheila shot downstairs is a non starter, but continue with it if you want.

Me and Si sat up late last night discussing this case, and think the bullet case maping is really strange. Yes we both know they could have been kicked about, trodden on etc...but, only 3 cases are found in the kitchen. Nevill in our opinion received 4 likely fatal shots to the head, why is there only 3 cases in the kitchen? Was one case(2 cases if Sheila is shot in kitchen)  walked upstairs? How did Nevill get to the kitchen if a shot to the brain was received upstairs? Was the beating of Nevill staged, along with the phone call, so the hit man could ring Jeremy?

Has Jeremys defence raised this point about the bullet cases in the kitchen?

.....................................

Shooting of Sheila downstairs did happen, that's where they first found her, and she was shot by use of a different gun (probably the .22 air rifle). Linked to this shooting, is the undisclosed officers report, and the fact that PS Woodcocks witness statement has missed pages, and one page in particular, which describes how the armed police first entered the kitchen, has been typed out by use of a completely different typewriter to the main body of the statement. Sheila was shot downstairs, and it was at this stage that most of the blood on the front upper right hand side of her nightdress, stained it there - additionally, there was ample time between the occasion she was initially shot whilst downstairs in the kitchen, and when she ended upstairs in the bedroom in time for the second shot to be inflicted by use of the other gun, for the blood from the neck wound to have dried and coagulated, so that once she became upright and mobile, blood did not start to run out of the wound because it had started to seal and coagulate...

It is also no coincidence that police swapped over the bullet (PV/20) that is linked to the non fatal shot that she received downstairs, since if they had not tampered with it, you would have ended up with two different bullets that could not have been fired by use of the same gun...

If the nature of the investigation had not changed, from SC/688/85 (four murders and a suicide) to SC/786/85 (five murders) it would not have been felt necessary to cover any of these happenings and occurraences up, but because the nature of the case did change, features like these had to be taken out of the equation - which is what they did...

Mike, a shaving cut seems to bleed forever.  If there was a 'shooting incident in the kitchen' ... I can't see how the neck wound would have sealed with coagulated blood, in time for the move upstairs and the second shot etc.

---------------------

It would depend upon how badly the original wound bled after it was inflicted downstairs, and before she regained consciousness, and fled upstairs. One thing that we do know is that there was a large blood loss from the initial shot which ran down her nightdress in a vertical fashion, or at a time when She may have been stood upright and moving around. What I would suggest as to the correct interpretation of how that distinctive bloodstain got there on the front upper part of her nightdress, was by way of Sheila using the fingers of her right hand to pre/ss onto the bullet entry wound on the right aside of her neck, and that as she was upright and walking around with her hand to her neck, blood ran down and into the folds of her arm and pooled there...

No person wanting to die is going to plug a bleeding lacerated jugular, wound.

There doesn't seem to be enough blood staining on the bed, to help prove your theory of shooting herself there...who knows, the police may well have moved her from floor to  bed.

4 fatal shots to Nevills head, only 3 bullet cases in the kitchen.

Was he killed upstairs? Was the bludgeoning he received staged? Was it all done to explain the phone call to JB from hitman..giving JB an alibi..with the thinking that BT had this technology for itemised local calls.. i think i'm onto something here....the delay in alerting the police..gave hit man time to make his escape.

BT check WHF phone calls, WHF phone call to JB's house, 3.10am, duration 15 seconds. JB turns up at WHF with police, proving there was no way he could have done the killings having received that phone call...but, there's no technology in place for local calls at this exchange...alibi is gone, oh dear.

JB loads  gun for hit man earlier in evening, and goes outside to pretend to shoot rabbits, and could easily have handed weapon to killer then. Shows hit man window to come in and go out of.Hit man enters when last person goes to bed, and dispatches adults pretty easily, then goes about making the scene look like the work of someone mentally unstable.

[Roch]

Mike, i really think the Sheila shot downstairs is a non starter, but continue with it if you want.

Me and Si sat up late last night discussing this case, and think the bullet case maping is really strange. Yes we both know they could have been kicked about, trodden on etc...but, only 3 cases are found in the kitchen. Nevill in our opinion received 4 likely fatal shots to the head, why is there only 3 cases in the kitchen? Was one case(2 cases if Sheila is shot in kitchen)  walked upstairs? How did Nevill get to the kitchen if a shot to the brain was received upstairs? Was the beating of Nevill staged, along with the phone call, so the hit man could ring Jeremy?

Has Jeremys defence raised this point about the bullet cases in the kitchen?

.....................................

Shooting of Sheila downstairs did happen, that's where they first found her, and she was shot by use of a different gun (probably the .22 air rifle). Linked to this shooting, is the undisclosed officers report, and the fact that PS Woodcocks witness statement has missed pages, and one page in particular, which describes how the armed police first entered the kitchen, has been typed out by use of a completely different typewriter to the main body of the statement. Sheila was shot downstairs, and it was at this stage that most of the blood on the front upper right hand side of her nightdress, stained it there - additionally, there was ample time between the occasion she was initially shot whilst downstairs in the kitchen, and when she ended upstairs in the bedroom in time for the second shot to be inflicted by use of the other gun, for the blood from the neck wound to have dried and coagulated, so that once she became upright and mobile, blood did not start to run out of the wound because it had started to seal and coagulate...

It is also no coincidence that police swapped over the bullet (PV/20) that is linked to the non fatal shot that she received downstairs, since if they had not tampered with it, you would have ended up with two different bullets that could not have been fired by use of the same gun...

If the nature of the investigation had not changed, from SC/688/85 (four murders and a suicide) to SC/786/85 (five murders) it would not have been felt necessary to cover any of these happenings and occurraences up, but because the nature of the case did change, features like these had to be taken out of the equation - which is what they did...

Mike, a shaving cut seems to bleed forever.  If there was a 'shooting incident in the kitchen' ... I can't see how the neck wound would have sealed with coagulated blood, in time for the move upstairs and the second shot etc.

---------------------

It would depend upon how badly the original wound bled after it was inflicted downstairs, and before she regained consciousness, and fled upstairs. One thing that we do know is that there was a large blood loss from the initial shot which ran down her nightdress in a vertical fashion, or at a time when She may have been stood upright and moving around. What I would suggest as to the correct interpretation of how that distinctive bloodstain got there on the front upper part of her nightdress, was by way of Sheila using the fingers of her right hand to pre/ss onto the bullet entry wound on the right aside of her neck, and that as she was upright and walking around with her hand to her neck, blood ran down and into the folds of her arm and pooled there...

No person wanting to die is going to plug a bleeding lacerated jugular, wound.

There doesn't seem to be enough blood staining on the bed, to help prove your theory of shooting herself there...who knows, the police may well have moved her from floor to  bed.

4 fatal shots to Nevills head, only 3 bullet cases in the kitchen.

Was he killed upstairs? Was the bludgeoning he received staged? Was it all done to explain the phone call to JB from hitman..giving JB an alibi..with the thinking that BT had this technology for itemised local calls.. i think i'm onto something here....the delay in alerting the police..gave hit man time to make his escape.

BT check WHF phone calls, WHF phone call to JB's house, 3.10am, duration 15 seconds. JB turns up at WHF with police, proving there was no way he could have done the killings having received that phone call...but, there's no technology in place for local calls at this exchange...alibi is gone, oh dear.

JB loads  gun for hit man earlier in evening, and goes outside to pretend to shoot rabbits, and could easily have handed weapon to killer then. Shows hit man window to come in and go out of.Hit man enters when last person goes to bed, and dispatches adults pretty easily, then goes about making the scene look like the work of someone mentally unstable.

How many murder cases in Britain have involved a Hitman, killing children?  Where do you find a Hitman?

[paulg]

Mike, i really think the Sheila shot downstairs is a non starter, but continue with it if you want.

Me and Si sat up late last night discussing this case, and think the bullet case maping is really strange. Yes we both know they could have been kicked about, trodden on etc...but, only 3 cases are found in the kitchen. Nevill in our opinion received 4 likely fatal shots to the head, why is there only 3 cases in the kitchen? Was one case(2 cases if Sheila is shot in kitchen)  walked upstairs? How did Nevill get to the kitchen if a shot to the brain was received upstairs? Was the beating of Nevill staged, along with the phone call, so the hit man could ring Jeremy?

Has Jeremys defence raised this point about the bullet cases in the kitchen?

.....................................

Shooting of Sheila downstairs did happen, that's where they first found her, and she was shot by use of a different gun (probably the .22 air rifle). Linked to this shooting, is the undisclosed officers report, and the fact that PS Woodcocks witness statement has missed pages, and one page in particular, which describes how the armed police first entered the kitchen, has been typed out by use of a completely different typewriter to the main body of the statement. Sheila was shot downstairs, and it was at this stage that most of the blood on the front upper right hand side of her nightdress, stained it there - additionally, there was ample time between the occasion she was initially shot whilst downstairs in the kitchen, and when she ended upstairs in the bedroom in time for the second shot to be inflicted by use of the other gun, for the blood from the neck wound to have dried and coagulated, so that once she became upright and mobile, blood did not start to run out of the wound because it had started to seal and coagulate...

It is also no coincidence that police swapped over the bullet (PV/20) that is linked to the non fatal shot that she received downstairs, since if they had not tampered with it, you would have ended up with two different bullets that could not have been fired by use of the same gun...

If the nature of the investigation had not changed, from SC/688/85 (four murders and a suicide) to SC/786/85 (five murders) it would not have been felt necessary to cover any of these happenings and occurraences up, but because the nature of the case did change, features like these had to be taken out of the equation - which is what they did...

Mike, a shaving cut seems to bleed forever.  If there was a 'shooting incident in the kitchen' ... I can't see how the neck wound would have sealed with coagulated blood, in time for the move upstairs and the second shot etc.

---------------------

It would depend upon how badly the original wound bled after it was inflicted downstairs, and before she regained consciousness, and fled upstairs. One thing that we do know is that there was a large blood loss from the initial shot which ran down her nightdress in a vertical fashion, or at a time when She may have been stood upright and moving around. What I would suggest as to the correct interpretation of how that distinctive bloodstain got there on the front upper part of her nightdress, was by way of Sheila using the fingers of her right hand to pre/ss onto the bullet entry wound on the right aside of her neck, and that as she was upright and walking around with her hand to her neck, blood ran down and into the folds of her arm and pooled there...

No person wanting to die is going to plug a bleeding lacerated jugular, wound.

There doesn't seem to be enough blood staining on the bed, to help prove your theory of shooting herself there...who knows, the police may well have moved her from floor to  bed.

4 fatal shots to Nevills head, only 3 bullet cases in the kitchen.

Was he killed upstairs? Was the bludgeoning he received staged? Was it all done to explain the phone call to JB from hitman..giving JB an alibi..with the thinking that BT had this technology for itemised local calls.. i think i'm onto something here....the delay in alerting the police..gave hit man time to make his escape.

BT check WHF phone calls, WHF phone call to JB's house, 3.10am, duration 15 seconds. JB turns up at WHF with police, proving there was no way he could have done the killings having received that phone call...but, there's no technology in place for local calls at this exchange...alibi is gone, oh dear.

JB loads  gun for hit man earlier in evening, and goes outside to pretend to shoot rabbits, and could easily have handed weapon to killer then. Shows hit man window to come in and go out of.Hit man enters when last person goes to bed, and dispatches adults pretty easily, then goes about making the scene look like the work of someone mentally unstable.

How many murder cases in Britain have involved a Hitman, killing children?  Where do you find a Hitman?

History is there to be made, historical events become memorable when they are singular...but that bloke in America shot his family up.

The children need to be killed to inherit the lot, the whole lot. A hit man doesn't have to be a regular mafia pro, just someone prepared to get there hands dirty for a good pay off. 2k i don't think is the figure, i'd say far more would eventually have come the hit mans way.

I know, and knew, many people capable of murder. The kids are not a stumbling block, just an unfortunate barrier to the good life...imo.

[SUMMER]

 I think even a Hit man, or at least some of them, might draw the line at shooting 6 year olds.
But then, what do I know?

[paulg]

 I think even a Hit man, or at least some of them, might draw the line at shooting 6 year olds.
But then, what do I know?

Tbh Summer, its best to ignore me.

The killing of the children is upsetting, very upsetting for us parents, which makes it difficult for us to make unemotional judgements on crimes related to kids.

[andrea]

Is jerry still on the forum?

[SUMMER]

Yes, you may well be right.
But what a terrifying scenario that it is!
The Hit man would really have to be a Psycho/Sociopath, wouldn't they?

[SUMMER]

Hi Andrea, 'Just sayng "Hello" and "Goodnight"
from me!

[paulg]

Is jerry still on the forum?

Hi Andrea, no idea.

Has he been naughty?

[andrea]

Is jerry still on the forum?

Hi Andrea, no idea.

Has he been naughty?

Nite summer xx

I don't know Paul, see ya inbox

[paulg]

Yes, you may well be right.
But what a terrifying scenario that it is!
The Hit man would really have to be a Psycho/Sociopath, wouldn't they?

Very cold and calculating, and IMO again, he's one bullet too few in the kitchen from doing a very very good job.

Death doesn't bother some people, someone with combat experience may well have been hardened to this.

[chochokeira]

Rochy, look. Nothing from Ralph.

Not if it's a rolling log and 'Mr. Bamber' of 'White House Farm' at the top of the log, is Nevill.

Mr Bamber's name is on the log as it is his property where the incident is taking place.  The log clearly indicates that the report was passed to police by "the son of Mr Bamber".  ie Jeremy Bamber.

Choosing to misinterpret the police log is very childish Rochy.

Why is the format of the log's second section so different to the first?

[chochokeira]

The log has three sections, other than the numbers and times of mobiles sent section.

The first section, messy, large writing, crammed onto right side of page,
this was written under pressure:                                                            Mr Bamber
                                                            White House Farm
                                                            Tolleshunt D'Arcy
                                                 -daughter Sheila Bamber aged
                                                         26 years has got hold
                                                         of one of my guns.

Second section, small writing, much better spaced, sentence format.
This was written later, at a less pressured pace.

Message passed to CD by the son of Mr Bamber
after the phone went dead. Mr Bamber has
a collection of shotguns and .410s

Third section, large writing, highly spaced after one line gap, tidier than first section, but the hand writing is the same size as that in the first section:

Action taken/ further information .....

CD                  contacting              CW                  by                     landline
356   - GPO      have        checked      phone     line      to          farmhouse
and          confirm           phone             left          off          the            hook
CM 860209

Why is it formatted like this

Because the second section was written later, when the writer had more time ??

[chochokeira]

Has this log copy been checked by a graphologist?

[Jerry]

If you add to this, the fact that I saw a crime scene photograph of Sheila laid out on the bed, when I visited Ewen Smiths office in Birmingham in 2003 - at a time when there was no blood running from the corners of her mouth, it means that police moved Sheila's body from the bed, onto the floor and that they then made a false claim of having found her body on the floor with the gun on top of it, when all along her body was originally found on the bed, and the rifle that was later attributed as being on top of her body, was leaning up against the bedroom window at the time the raid team forced their way into the farmhouse at just after 7:30am...

Certainly the police moved Sheila's body but they never shot her, such speculation is shear fantasy as is the theory that she was shot downstairs and somehow clambered up a flight of stairs after having been shot in the neck.