When the enquiry changed from a suicide to murder did the relatives have alibis?

[chochokeira]

What an unbelievable post Shona I will reply to that tomorrow cuckoo you say right I know where you are coming from

And Paul
Jeremy is about as insignificant as the Guildford four and Birmingham six

Remind me Paul why were they in prison how many  appeals did they have


Shona I wonder why so many people support jeremy why is that Shona I think we look at the world through different eyes

Night

There she goes with the name calling again....quite a list now Jackie.

Thick...liar...stupid...cuckoo...

And here you are distorting the truth once again.

Jackie did not, as I recall, call anyone a cuckoo, she was refering to someone else's use of the term.

But, why allow inconvenient facts like the truth to get in the way of your smear campaigns, eh, John?

[chochokeira]

Hartley you are backing yourself into a corner again and you will soon have to run away again with your tail between your legs like you did a few weeks ago.

I don't believe Julie mucked was telling the truth about knowing about the murders and that is why the relatives didn't push to have her charged not an own goal at all

If mugford was telling the truth the relatives would have gone to any lengths to have had her charged


John you are a liar

Answer my 2 questions

Jackie  +1
John      0

So childish Keira!   

ps name calling won't promote your lost cause one iota!

John, please post a quote from me verifying this absurd claim that I was name calling. The fact is, you can't because I did nothing of the kind. This is simply one more example of how eagerly you misquote, refuse to provide sources for your wild claims and distort facts in order to misrepresent the case for and against Jeremy Bamber.

[Hartley]

What an unbelievable post Shona I will reply to that tomorrow cuckoo you say right I know where you are coming from

And Paul
Jeremy is about as insignificant as the Guildford four and Birmingham six

Remind me Paul why were they in prison how many  appeals did they have


Shona I wonder why so many people support jeremy why is that Shona I think we look at the world through different eyes

Night

There she goes with the name calling again....quite a list now Jackie.

Thick...liar...stupid...cuckoo...

And here you are distorting the truth once again.

Jackie did not, as I recall, call anyone a cuckoo, she was refering to someone else's use of the term.

But, why allow inconvenient facts like the truth to get in the way of your smear campaigns, eh, John?

Are you for real? Distorting the truth? It's no different from 75% of other peoples posts though is it, unless other people saying things like JM lied, PC plod 1 falsified that, pc plod 2 is corrupt, the relatives murdered everyone not JB, etc, etc.

But of course you don't see those types of posts as lying because they reinforce your view.

Jackie is just rude, perhaps if she was a little more polite to people and respected that people have different views, and perhaps if she wasn't so preachy, the a few more people might be willing to listen to what she has to say.

Take a leaf out of Grahams, Rochfords, Abs or Cliffs or Andreas book maybe, they all appear to have similar views that JB is innocent, but they are generally quite civil to folk with opposing views.

[paulg]

What an unbelievable post Shona I will reply to that tomorrow cuckoo you say right I know where you are coming from

And Paul
Jeremy is about as insignificant as the Guildford four and Birmingham six

Remind me Paul why were they in prison how many  appeals did they have


Shona I wonder why so many people support jeremy why is that Shona I think we look at the world through different eyes

Night

There she goes with the name calling again....quite a list now Jackie.

Thick...liar...stupid...cuckoo...

And here you are distorting the truth once again.

Jackie did not, as I recall, call anyone a cuckoo, she was refering to someone else's use of the term.

But, why allow inconvenient facts like the truth to get in the way of your smear campaigns, eh, John?

Are you for real? Distorting the truth? It's no different from 75% of other peoples posts though is it, unless other people saying things like JM lied, PC plod 1 falsified that, pc plod 2 is corrupt, the relatives murdered everyone not JB, etc, etc.

But of course you don't see those types of posts as lying because they reinforce your view.

Jackie is just rude, perhaps if she was a little more polite to people and respected that people have different views, and perhaps if she wasn't so preachy, the a few more people might be willing to listen to what she has to say.

Take a leaf out of Grahams, Rochfords, Abs or Cliffs or Andreas book maybe, they all appear to have similar views that JB is innocent, but they are generally quite civil to folk with opposing views.

Hartley, Jackie is a fanatic, the extreme far left of the JB is innocent party. When i right winger like Shona,myself or John posts, you've got to accept she'll get a little bit volatile. Grahame, Rochford,Abs and Cliff are moderate left wingers, so far less volatile, and Andrea's just a babe..that hat does it for me.

Keira's a rights person, and only interested in justice, tinged with a little " i think he's innocent".

Don't bite people, its just a wind up.

[Hartley]

Okay. Nicely put, you diplomat you. 

[ngb1066]

"If just one of the ten jurors had wavered, Bamber would have walked away a free man."

Andrew Hunter MP

He may well have said that, but unfortunately it is not the case.

In a Crown Court case if the jury are unable to reach a unanimous or majority verdict in a case which involves significant public interest then there is an assumption in law that the prosecution will seek a re-trial.

Hunters statement is premature.

In fact reading up a bit more, if a retrial took place and a majority verdict failed a second time, it is even conceivable that the prosecution would seek a second retrial.

That is extremely unlikely.  The legal convention is that the prosecution agree that it is not in the public interest for there to be a third trial following two trials with a hung jury.

Tell Sion Jenkins that then.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article728984.ece

The Sion Jenkins case makes my point.  He had three trials.  After the first, at which he was convicted (i.e. there was no hung jury), the Court of Appeal ordered a retrial.  There then followed two trials, each resulting in a hung jury.  The prosecution then followed standard practice in saying it would not be in the public interest for there to be a further trial.

[grahameb]

......and Andrea's just a babe..that hat does it for me.

sexist

[paulg]

......and Andrea's just a babe..that hat does it for me.

sexist

Nah, just an honest red blooded male. 

[Jackiepreece]

I do love to provoke a reaction lets now have a list of any lies I have told on here John.

Hartley you are a friend of the relatives as you have pointed out on numerous times so you are not independant

Shona used the word cuckoo which I believe is used when someone is adopted they are not really true members of a family
That's what she thinks of Jeremy he should be in line for the inheritance

Paul tell us your past any problems with the police or has anyone in your family been accused of murder is their any personal  reason you would like to keep Jeremy locked up

Do you think Donal Macintyre would be a good person to investigate this case

[shonapugs]

Yes, I used the word cuckoo, as in a greedy, ungrateful youngster, watching the poor, hard-working parents doing their best to rear him. Did JB, or did he not, say that he would have no problem in killing his parents? Did he not steal from them? And here come the smites - does a cuckoo not throw out all the other young from the nest so that he can get all the grub? I am beginning to sound like I am ranting, I'd better have a nice sit down and a look at the Daily Mail...........

[paulg]

I do love to provoke a reaction lets now have a list of any lies I have told on here John.

Hartley you are a friend of the relatives as you have pointed out on numerous times so you are not independant

Shona used the word cuckoo which I believe is used when someone is adopted they are not really true members of a family
That's what she thinks of Jeremy he should be in line for the inheritance

Paul tell us your past any problems with the police or has anyone in your family been accused of murder is their any personal  reason you would like to keep Jeremy locked up

Do you think Donal Macintyre would be a good person to investigate this case

Its not a case having personal reasons Jackie, i've never met the bloke. If he's guilty, then he can stay in prison. If there's evidence to show the jury was wrong, then he'll be released.

I've been falsely set up on an assault charge, wrongly arrested for attempted murder (later released without charge), caught and found guilty of theft of petrol (i was guilty).Guilty for drunk and disorderly (was guilty), and i couple of others involving fights, was guilty.

What i've got away with far outweighs the assault charge, so i consider myself in credit. I've been a good boy for the last 23 years though.

[Hartley]

Hartley you are a friend of the relatives as you have pointed out on numerous times so you are not independant

Aaaaagh I'm biting again!!!   

Jackie you sweetie, your challenge should your choose to accept is go and find somewhere that I have said that I am a friend of the relatives, it shouldn't be too difficult as there are numerous occasions are there not?

And to drag me in hook line and sinker, should we apply the same theory to your relationship with Jeremy as to your independence? Surely on that basis we should discount anything you say should we not?

I actually haven't made any accusations or sweeping statements or anything else really, well not lately none that I recall anyway, so I'm not really sure what your beef is. 

 

[Jackiepreece]

Hartley what is my relationship with Jeremy?

Shona the only thing I will agree with you is the caravan robbery the other things you are talking about are still under debate at the ccrc.  As I have said before Shona if you have the proof that JB please share or get in touch with the ccrc it would save so much time and money

[Hartley]

Hartley what is my relationship with Jeremy?

Jackie I have no idea. I would expect that's something you should know for yourself though, so I'm not sure why you're asking me. 

Any joy on finding out where I said I was friends with the 'relatives' yet?

[Hartley]

Hartley what is my relationship with Jeremy?

Jackie I have no idea. I would expect that's something you should know for yourself though, so I'm not sure why you're asking me. 

Any joy on finding out where I said I was friends with the 'relatives' yet?

Oh okay Jackie you lovely person, I shall try and assist you as best I can.

Would it be the post below that you decided I was friends with the relatives by any chance? And shall we put the 'numerous occasions' statement down to a lie of yours, or a simple mistake perhaps? 

I'm not sure really because you keep running around telling people to stop lying, so for the benefit of doubt we'll record this as a simple mistake I think, and mistakes are fine, that's what we learn from.

Thanks Hartley.........Just a couple of questions to kick off with then:

1) What is your view on JB guilty or innocent? (maybe best expressed as 2 percentages i.e 60/40)
2) What are the key things that have made you form this view?
3) Have you any connection with EP.
4) Have you had any contact with key family members? (RBW, DB, AE, PE) social, work or other
5) Your age in 1985? (approx)
6) Current proximity to the area?
7) Do you hope for a positive CCRC result or would rather it was turned down?

I'm interested in your views opinions and will not shoot anything down in flames as I believe considering all options could be the key to solving this long term. I also understand that the worst Police investigation in modern history doesn't mean a man is definitely innocent. This investigation was shocking whatever way you look at it and even EP aren't proud of it.

Okay let's see, I'm replying on the premise that I have no interest of getting into a point scoring contest, I have my views and other people have theirs. That's fine.

1)
Difficult to quantify but if I had to I would say somewhere in the region of 85/15 guilty, it was probably something like 65/35 before participating in this particular forum.

2)
I generally find the prosecutions presented case to be sound and I’ve seen no evidence from any of the appeals or indeed presented on this and other forums which lead me believe an alternative chain of events occurred.
I have tried to keep an open mind and look at new evidence and theories as they arise, and I’ll continue to do so, but I haven’t seen any of sufficient weight to cause me to change my view.

In addition I have a few personal opinions/speculation in different areas, these are just my own views so feel free to disagree, I’m not ramming it down anybodies throat.
It’s not an exhaustive list but it will suffice as a response to the question I’m sure.

SHIELA-
Regardless of her illness, I don’t believe she had the ability to overcome Nevill (whether already injured or not), or the ability to strike a blow with the butt of the anshulz rifle with such force that the butt splintered.
I don’t believe that she was so proficient with the firearm in a normal frame of mind let alone a frenzied/crazy/berserk frame of mind to have 100% accuracy with every single shot fired, not a single miss.
I don’t believe that she would have shot herself twice in order to commit suicide and the two shots are quite different from each other, the first being from within 3 inches and at a shallow angle just off horizontal, the second being a contact shot right under the chin and into her brain. Having failed with the first shot, I don’t believe that she would have had the presence of mind to understand why the first shot failed and change the approach when it came to the second shot.

JEREMY-
 To me, his behaviour after the horrific murders is very odd, and that doesn’t necessarily make him guilty, but when combined with the huge number of odd coincidences that occurred, it does push me towards thinking that he is responsible.
Some of the coincidences if he was innocent include: the handling of the murder weapon on the prior evening and thus his fingerprints being present; the admission of the alleged break in, which gave an alibi of sorts, saying that he broke in after and not on the night of the murders; the alleged phone call from Nevill to Jeremy; Julie Mugford’s statement against him.
He’s either the most unlucky chap on the planet, or he’s guilty.

JULIE MUGFORD-
I know some people have a view that she lied to sell the story to the papers, or lied because she was a scorned woman with a grudge, or that she completely hoodwinked the defences cross examiner by pretending to be a crocodile.
But without witnessing her body language and in lieu of anything more concrete I’m inclined to trust in the judgement of the jury, judges and interviewing police officers that she was telling the truth.

THE SILENCER EVIDENCE-
Again I’m quite happy with the chain of events regarding the discovery of the silencer put forward by the prosecution. Whilst the relatives actions in taking the silencer to Oak Farm and the closer examination of it, was ill advised indeed, I still believe the evidence and it’s credibility is sound.
I’ve heard the various theories of multiple and merged silencers and differing discovery dates etc, which I don’t believe.

A POLICE FIT UP:
I’m not so naïve to think that police corruption is a myth, but I personally deem it to be absolutely impossible that a cover up of this scale involving this many people over more than 25 years could have occurred.

3)
No I have no connection with EP, I was in the MET for a mere 12 months in 2002/2003 but it didn't suit me, my sister is in the MET and has been for around 12 years. Nothing to do with this particular case.

4)
Yes, but I'm not willing to divulge anything more than that on this forum which has such close ties to JB and his associates.

5)
I was just a kid back then, only in my thirties now.

6)
I live just West of Tollesbury.

7)
On a personal level, the only result I wish for from the CCRC is one which reflects the evidence, they have access to much more evidence than that which is cherry picked and presented on these forums.


Hopefully that answers your questions?