Questions about the bible :

[guest2181]

The 2002 Appeal Court Judges were sure it had in fact been open at Psalm 51 ...

Surely if the blood had soaked through it would have also soaked through onto other pages a well ...

The only page that ANY blood was found on was Psalm 51 - and an EXACT mirror image of the stain was found on the page opposite ...

It is very clear therefore that the Bible had been open at Psalm 51 after blood had been shed that night ..

You are exactly right to think this is a very important point in this case ...

I'm not convinced.

[guest2181]

This is a reference to a form such as the one below. On the form below only prints are noted as being found on the rifle, yet a number of items are listed as being tested.

I suspect the same thing will be true of the form which is referenced in your attachement, i.e. the bible will be listed but not as having positive prints.

A case of passing something off as saying something that it does not.

The 2002 appeal judgement states the following:

52. The Bible found by Sheila Caffell's body, belonged to her mother and was normally kept in a cupboard to the right of her bed. It was examined for fingerprints. Many belonged to June Bamber and there were a small number of insufficient detail for comparison, save for one which appeared to have been made by a small child.

[lookout]

Therefore no prints or fibres from JB as having handled it---------because he wasn't there.

[sherlock]

Jeremy wouldn't have studied the Bible to the extent that his mother did,whether he was taught RE at school or not. He'd probably had and heard enough of the rantings from his mother when he was growing up and too much of a good thing,just isn't in that respect.

No way would the Bible have displaced from a still,deceased person,let alone fall on the relevant page.

June would have been reading that particular Bible as it was hers,but would have been more likely to have been reading about morality rather than killing.

As i have said in a previous post the Bible was NOT found open at the relevant page (Psalm 51) - it was found open at a random page ...

What we do know is that it had been open at the relevant page (Psalm 51) at some point after blood had been shed that night ...

It was not June who had been reading Psalm 51 - i have stated in a previous post why we can rule this out ...

It is possible the Jeremy had picked up the knowledge about Psalm 51 at some point - but much more likely that Sheila had an understanding and knowledge of Psalm 51 ...

It is possible that the Bible had slipped off Sheila's chest - things like that do happen - it's also very possible that Sheila had read Psalm 51 then turned to another page (the one it was found open at) before shooting herself - leaving the Bible by her side in the position it was found ...

[sherlock]

I'm not convinced.

This is from the 2002 Appeal Court Judges :

407. Two further photographs of the Bible have been located by those advising the appellant. When they were taken and by whom they were taken is not known. It is clear from the photographs themselves that they were not taken at the scene. But must have been taken at some other location following the removal of the Bible as a potential exhibit by the police. The photographs record the blood staining on the Bible. From this staining it is immediately obvious that the Bible has been shut whilst the blood remained wet because marks on one page are mirrored on the adjoining page.

408. The pages on which the heavy staining appears in these photographs are pages including part or all of Psalms 51-55. It is said that these pages are significant and represented "Sheila Caffell's suicide note". A number of passages are highlighted and it will suffice if we give one example, taken from verse 14 of Psalm 51:

"Save me from blood guiltiness O God…"

The Appeal Court Judges were convinced about the Bible having been opened at Psalm 51 at some point after blood had been shed that night ...

They were not allowed at appeal to consider the relevance of Psalm 51 because as they went on to say the Bible had been available at trial for the defence to inspect - which unfortunately they did not do ... they had such a large amount of work to do and such limited time they simply overlooked it or did not get round to doing it in time ...

The defence only noticed the Psalm 51 point when photographs were disclosed after the trial - but like the Appeal Court Judges said - the Bible itself was available for the defence to inspect at trial - had they chosen to do so ...

Appeal Court Judges are only allowed to consider new evidence that was not available at trial ...

They were therefore simply not allowed to consider it's relevance during the appeal - and the Jury were never told about Psalm 51 or it's huge significance ...

[Adam]

I was talking about your bizzare and wrong claim regarding Sheila having fired into the air ...

I never said that Adam - you did ...

I actually said this might have been what Neville thought had happened when he heard the first shot ...

Which is why i said you need to pay attention to what other posters are actually saying if you don't want to appear silly ...

Anyway good night Adam - and may God bless you ...

So Sheila's running around the house. In her nightie. Bare footed. Holding a rifle. As I said, we've all been guilty of doing that.

Neville cannot control her and rings Bamber. Although there are 40 reasons not to.  Neville then now hears just one gun shot upstairs. He assumes Sheila is just shooting into the air  . So he then decides to spend ten minutes ringing the police. Leaving Sheila upstairs shooting into the air !

June and the twins of course stayed in bed during this time.

[sherlock]

So Sheila's running around the house. In her nightie. Bare footed. Holding a rifle. As I said, we've all been guilty of doing that.

Neville cannot control her and rings Bamber. Although there are 40 reasons not to.  Neville then now hears just one gun shot upstairs. He assumes Sheila is just shooting into the air  . So he then decides to spend ten minutes ringing the police.

June and the twins of course stayed in bed during this time.

If Sheila is guilty and going mad why wouldn't she be running about the house with a gun, i her nightie and barefoot ? Maybe she put the nightie on after her shower later in any case ...

It is also possible that Neville did not phone the Police ...

Maybe he phoned Jeremy - heard a shot upstairs - hung up the phone and ran upstairs to help out ...

After listening to you in fact i now think this is more likely - you are right - if he heard a shot upstairs he would not waste time phoning the Police - he would run straight upstairs ...

[guest2181]

This is from the 2002 Appeal Court Judges :

407. Two further photographs of the Bible have been located by those advising the appellant. When they were taken and by whom they were taken is not known. It is clear from the photographs themselves that they were not taken at the scene. But must have been taken at some other location following the removal of the Bible as a potential exhibit by the police. The photographs record the blood staining on the Bible. From this staining it is immediately obvious that the Bible has been shut whilst the blood remained wet because marks on one page are mirrored on the adjoining page.

408. The pages on which the heavy staining appears in these photographs are pages including part or all of Psalms 51-55. It is said that these pages are significant and represented "Sheila Caffell's suicide note". A number of passages are highlighted and it will suffice if we give one example, taken from verse 14 of Psalm 51:

"Save me from blood guiltiness O God…"

The Appeal Court Judges were convinced about the Bible having been opened at Psalm 51 at some point after blood had been shed that night ...

They were not allowed at appeal to consider the relevance of Psalm 51 because as they went on to say the Bible had been available at trial for the defence to inspect - which unfortunately they did not do ... they had such a large amount of work to do and such limited time they simply overlooked it or did not get round to doing it in time ...

The defence only noticed the Psalm 51 point when photographs were disclosed after the trial - but like the Appeal Court Judges said - the Bible itself was available for the defence to inspect at trial - had they chosen to do so ...

Appeal Court Judges are only allowed to consider new evidence that was not available at trial ...

They were therefore simply not allowed to consider it's relevance during the appeal - and the Jury were never told about Psalm 51 or it's huge significance ...

That isn't actually entirely correct, you seem to have been a little selective.

The consideration of Ground 9 needs to be read in it's entirety:

Ground 9 – the Bible 405. Ground 9 is an allegation of non-disclosure relating to the Bible found beside Sheila Caffell's body. The precise complaint is that the prosecution failed to disclose at trial the pages at which the Bible had been opened. Mr Turner draws attention to two distinct matters, two photographs of the Bible and documents relating to an inquiry made to a local Rector about the relevant pages.

406. Photographs of the scene, which were before the jury at trial, clearly showed the Bible lying open but face down beside Sheila Caffell's body. Since the Bible was face down, it is not possible to ascertain from these photographs the pages at which the Bible lay open.

407. Two further photographs of the Bible have been located by those advising the appellant. When they were taken and by whom they were taken is not known. It is clear from the photographs themselves that they were not taken at the scene. But must have been taken at some other location following the removal of the Bible as a potential exhibit by the police. The photographs record the blood staining on the Bible. From this staining it is immediately obvious that the Bible has been shut whilst the blood remained wet because marks on one page are mirrored on the adjoining page.

408. The pages on which the heavy staining appears in these photographs are pages including part or all of Psalms 51-55. It is said that these pages are significant and represented "Sheila Caffell's suicide note". A number of passages are highlighted and it will suffice if we give one example, taken from verse 14 of Psalm 51:

"Save me from blood guiltiness O God…"

409. The evidence suggests that the two photographs were not brought to the attention of the defence and Mr Turner once more submits that the only explanation for this is wilful concealment by the police.

410. In addition complaint is made that a visit to discuss the relevant pages with the local Rector was not disclosed to the defence. This allegation stems from documents which came to light during the subsequent inquiries. These documents record that on a day ,which seems to be early in the inquiry into the shootings, DC Barlow was instructed by DI Miller to see the Rector to see if there was any significance in the open pages. Since at that stage the case was thought to be one in which Sheila Caffell had committed suicide, such an inquiry seems a natural one to have made. The only record of the outcome of that instruction appears in a note made by DC Barlow at a much later date which reads:

"I did see the Rector but he couldn't help us in any way on (the) point…"

411. Mr Barlow has since that time been forced to retire from the police force following a severe stroke. He does not now think that he did see the Rector. However, so far as we can tell, his record quoted above was not drawn to his attention and we conclude that he did see the Rector. We are not, however, surprised that a fruitless inquiry made almost 17 years ago does not stick in his memory following his enforced retirement from the police.

412. Mr Turner submits that there was a duty on the prosecution not only to disclose the photographs but also the fact of the visit to the Rector.

413. The only value of the photographs would be if the Bible itself was not available for inspection since if it was, the page at which it was open could very readily be found. We permitted both Mr Terzeon, the defence solicitor at trial, and Mr Edmund Lawson QC, junior counsel at trial, to give evidence about this aspect of the case. Mr Terzeon suggested that he had particularly wanted to ascertain the pages at which the Bible was open. He said that as a result he had asked the police and been told that the pages were not known. When he was asked why he had not looked at the Bible itself, he said that it was his recollection that it had been missing at the time.

414. If Mr Terzeon's recollection was right, we find it astonishing that nowhere is this recorded in any document nor does Mr Edmund Lawson have any recollection of any such problem. The fact that the police had lost an exhibit at some stage that the defence were anxious to view is we suggest the sort of detail that tends to stick in trial counsel's mind even when other details fade. Further Mr Terzeon had no recollection of the Bible being produced at trial as it undoubtedly was. If it had been missing and if the defence were attaching to it the importance that he now suggests, it must surely have come to his attention and would, we have no doubt, been carefully scrutinised. Such scrutiny would inevitably have revealed the relevant pages because the pages were so heavily bloodstained. Blood had also dripped down the edges of the pages on one of the sides when it was opened. Thus by turning to the end of this mark on the page edges one could immediately identify the bloodstained pages with little effort.

415. We are satisfied that whilst Mr Terzeon is doing his best to assist the court, his recollection in this regard is faulty. Even if he was right, any deficiency in this regard would have been cured when the Bible was produced at trial.

416. The fact that the defence made no play of the Bible's pages may very well have something to do with another aspect of the matter. The more each member of the court looked at the photographs in order to deal with this point, the more difficult we found it to reconcile the actual bloodstaining with the defence case. The largest area of blood seems to have got onto the Bible when it came into contact with a pool of blood beside the body. As already observed the Bible must have been shut whilst the blood was wet. It does not seem very likely that it was still wet hours after the event when the police might have handled it. If this is so, it was shut by someone and then reopened to lie beside the body after Sheila Caffell had been shot. These matters along with other considerations of a similar kind were placed before us by the prosecution on an application to call fresh evidence with which we will deal later. It did not, however, require fresh evidence for us to see that there was a potentially powerful point that might have been made in this regard by the prosecution at trial.

417. The explanation why the pages at which the Bible was open was not explored by the defence may be explicable by these matters. Counsel with the experience of Mr Rivlin QC, and with his acknowledged reputation for thoroughness, may well have decided that far from helping these matters might have presented a yet further major hurdle for the appellant to overcome and consequently decided to leave well alone. In any event we are satisfied that production of the original exhibit provided all the information that the photographs would have revealed and that there was no failure to disclose in this respect.

418. The information that the Rector had been visited was, on all the available evidence, of no help to anyone. The record shows that he could not help in any way. Thus there was nothing that could assist the defence and accordingly nothing that required to be disclosed.

419. We are satisfied, therefore, that there was no failure by the prosecution to disclose any material in this regard that required to be disclosed. Even if we had reached a different conclusion, we fail to see how it would have assisted the appellant. The pages only became relevant if Sheila Caffell had turned them up but that begged the very question that the jury were going to have to answer, namely who killed Sheila Caffell. Was it Sheila Caffell who opened the Bible as a part of her suicide or Jeremy Bamber who did it as part of a plan to make it look as if Sheila Caffell had committed suicide? Mr Turner suggests that if it was the appellant it is remarkable that he did not himself pursue this aspect of the matter. However for the appellant to suggest that these pages were of some critical significance required him to know what they were. If he was the killer, he could hardly make any great play of this aspect of the case without risking others realising that he had more knowledge about the matter than he would have had if he was innocent.

420. For these reasons, but particularly because we are satisfied that there was no failure to disclose matters of significance this ground fails. We should add that we were asked to hear evidence from Dr Ferguson in respect of the significance of these pages but we are satisfied that the evidence was available to the defence at trial and that in any event Dr Ferguson could not assist on the critical question as to who chose to open the Bible at this page. We, therefore, declined to hear this evidence.

421. For the sake of completeness, we should record that those acting for the appellant had obtained a statement from Dr Gillingham, a theologian, dealing with the theological significance of the pages at which the Bible was open. No application was made to us to admit this evidence. If it had been, we would have rejected the application. Such evidence could have been obtained for the trial because we are satisfied that the relevant passages could have been obtained by those acting for the appellant. In any event we do not consider that this evidence would have been admissible at trial because there was no evidence to suggest that Sheila Caffell had any particular theological training or expertise which would have enabled her to read more into the passages than would have been apparent to the jury from looking at the passages themselves. Further we have no doubt at all that even if admissible, this evidence could not have had any impact on the jury's verdict.

[Caroline]

If Sheila is guilty and going mad why wouldn't she be running about the house with a gun, i her nightie and barefoot ? Maybe she put the nightie on after her shower later in any case ...

It is also possible that Neville did not phone the Police ...

Maybe he phoned Jeremy - heard a shot upstairs - hung up the phone and ran upstairs to help out ...

After listening to you in fact i now think this is more likely - you are right - if he heard a shot upstairs he would not waste time phoning the Police - he would run straight upstairs ...

But the phone was off the hook! The phone was off the hook deliberately to give weight to Jeremy's claim that Nevill called him - thus giving the impression that when the shooting started, he was a couple of miles away in GH.

[Jane]

There can be no doubt that Sheila had an interest in religion - at least at certain points of her life.
Dr Ferguson's statements alone make that crystal clear - beyond reasonable debate.
Therefore she would have read the Bible at least occasionally.
Therefore she MIGHT have known the significance of Psalm 51.
I would be surprised if Jeremy knew the significance of Psalm 51- but for all we know he MIGHT have done.
It is more likely that Sheila knew than Jeremy knew - but both are possible.

Almost the only fact i am certain of in this case is that whoever committed the murders beyond doubt knew the significance of Psalm 51 ...

According to the 2002 Appeal Court Judges what happened is this :

The Bible was open at Psalm 51 and had blood on the page ...

The Bible was then closed - they know this because on the facing page was an identical bloodstain - so it MUST have been closed to cause this identical stain on both pages ...

The Bible was then found open on a different page - if you go by the crime scene photos - because in the photos it is clear it was not open at Psalm 51 - there were too many pages on either side of the open section for it to have been left open at Psalm 51 ...

Make of it what you will but if Jeremy or a third party killer had left it open they would have surely left it open on Psalm 51 - after all Psalm 51 is highly relevant to the events of that night ...

Much more likely is that after committing murder Sheila turned to Psalm 51 - that is how the blood got on that particular page - she then either :

a) turned to another page of the Bible
b) closed the Bible and then dropped it - it then fell open at another page ...

The Bible evidence alone therefore points to it being MUCH more likely that Sheila did it ...

I am however obviously aware that there is a lot of other evidence than just the Bible to consider in this case ...

If you don't get 100% what i am saying about the Bible then with the greatest of respect you ARE missing the point - i am not wrong about this in any way shape or form ...

I am happy to answer any questions about this or to try and explain what i mean more clearly if you want - but don't make the mistake of thinking i am wrong about the Bible - because i am not ...

The second point I'd like to raise is this.

You say "there can be no doubt that Sheila had an interest in religion - at least at certain points of her life". You omit to say that the only documented times were when she had breakdowns, and whilst "Dr Ferguson's statements alone make that crystal clear - beyond reasonable debate", Dr Ferguson never saw her at times OTHER than when she was in the grip of breakdowns. I fail to see how, from this, you reach the conclusion that "therefore she would have read the Bible at least occasionally", even less the speculation that "therefore she MIGHT have known the significance of Psalm 51". I believe you're perfectly correct in "being surprised if Jeremy knew the significance.......". I don't imagine that compulsory RE(Scripture) lessons and assemblies held him in thrall.

You say "it's more likely that after committing murder Sheila turned to Psalm 51..............." which she could only do if she knew of it's existence and there is nothing which encourages me to believe she did. You've suggested that she could have heard it used as a sermon text in church!!!!! Are you serious? I must ask my clerical friends how many would preach a sermon about a Psalm written by a man seeking God's forgiveness for having condemned his lover's husband to his certain death.

You say "The Bible evidence alone therefore points to it being MUCH more likely that Sheila did it..." which is exactly what Jeremy wanted to convey.

[Caroline]

The second point I'd like to raise is this.

You say "there can be no doubt that Sheila had an interest in religion - at least at certain points of her life". You omit to say that the only documented times were when she had breakdowns, and whilst "Dr Ferguson's statements alone make that crystal clear - beyond reasonable debate", Dr Ferguson never saw her at times OTHER than when she was in the grip of breakdowns. I fail to see how, from this, you reach the conclusion that "therefore she would have read the Bible at least occasionally", even less the speculation that "therefore she MIGHT have known the significance of Psalm 51". I believe you're perfectly correct in "being surprised if Jeremy knew the significance.......". I don't imagine that compulsory RE(Scripture) lessons and assemblies held him in thrall.

You say "it's more likely that after committing murder Sheila turned to Psalm 51..............." which she could only do if she knew of it's existence and there is nothing which encourages me to believe she did. You've suggested that she could have heard it used as a sermon text in church!!!!! Are you serious? I must ask my clerical friends how many would preach a sermon about a Psalm written by a man seeking God's forgiveness for having condemned his lover's husband to his certain death.

You say "The Bible evidence alone therefore points to it being MUCH more likely that Sheila did it..." which is exactly what Jeremy wanted to convey.

I completely agree Jane - it is FAR MORE likely that Psalm 51 was a complete coincidence.

[David1819]

I think you are becoming a bit of a troll and trying to argue that black is white. To make your apparently feigned obtuseness worse, you are choosing to be somewhat rude with your responses, labeling people ridiculous or that they are talking nonsense.

Your responses and rudeness to myself and other members is becoming a bit boring and is a bit of a shame really.

I Apologise if that's how I come across, I do not do it intentionally.

Nevertheless anything abusive I may say is just a mild curry compared to the heated comments the women frequently throw at eachother on a regular if not daily basis.

[Jane]

I Apologise if that's how I come across, I do not do it intentionally.

Nevertheless anything abusive I may say is just a mild curry compared to the heated comments the women frequently throw at eachother on a regular if not daily basis.

Thankfully, the instigator is no longer in our midst.

[Caroline]

I Apologise if that's how I come across, I do not do it intentionally.

Nevertheless anything abusive I may say is just a mild curry compared to the heated comments the women frequently throw at eachother on a regular if not daily basis.

I think we just fight like with like and that's because of years of personal comments and defensiveness just because we think Bamber is guilty and argue our case well.

[Adam]

It is interesting that Bamber said when interviewed, he had handled a bible.

I suspect he knew he had handled it on the night without gloves.

He wasn't religious at all and called June a 'religious maniac'. His reason for handling the bible ? To hit Crispy with !

Poor Crispy:

He witnesses a horrific massacre. Probably terrified he might get shot himself. Especially as Bamber used to hit him with June's bible.

Then gets left alone inside WHF for several hours.

Bamber then tells the police to 'get rid of it' or 'put it down' as he 'hated the thing' and didn't want it messing up his stero equipment'.

Either before or after Crispy is put down, Crispy is accused of firing the second shot !