Police log contents, and position of bodies in photographs don't add up, CRIKEY.

[Adam]

cobblers - pure and utter assumption by you - nothing more - nothing less.

try again .

Jan I admired you're 'Primary sources' tactic. Seventeen sources said one thing. Zero sources said the opposite. So you attacked the seventeen. But the fire fighting must stop.

It's just a natural reaction. He would have a bedroom clock. When the downstairs phone eventually wakes him, he will say 'what the f---' is this ? Then check the time, and then say it again.

Jeremy would ignore the ringing phone as long as possible. Lookout saying he was the laziest man alive. But Neville was prepared to wait. And wait.

[scipio_usmc]

Reader and Mike are intentionally ignoring Jeremy's own claims and making things up.  This more than anything demonstrates they are not searching for the truth but rather have an agenda and are making up things to support that agenda.

There is nothing wrong with advocacy but just like impartial people are limited to the established facts and evidence in the record so too are advocates.

Jeremy insists he called Julie after he spoke to the police at Chelmsford.  That is what he told everyone except for one occasion when he slipped up during his interrogation and admitted the truth- that he spoke to Julie before he spoke with police.  When police jumped on that he said he simply was confused and made a mistake.  He reverted back to his prior claims and that is what he asserted at trial as well.  He lied about calling police before Julie for a reason- he had no valid excuse for calling her before police.  He supposedly was scared to go try to help as Nevill supposedly desired and instead decided to call police to have them go try to help his family.  To say he called Julie after the call would make objective people disbelieve that he received the call he claimed he received thus he told everyone on the day of the murders that he immediately called police like someone who received such a call would do. Telling the Jury he lied to police at the scene and in fact called Julie before calling police would make the juros doubt his claims of receiving a call from Nevill because calling Julie makes no sense unless he was the killer like Julie asserted.  Thus the truth helps corroborate Julie's account.  So Jeremy lied.

Jeremy's lie completely ruins an already precarious timetable they have come up with so they need to reject Jeremy's lies.  But they don't want to admit he lied so they craft the tale of Jeremy calling Witham then Julie and then Chelmsford so they could say he did call police first but could not get through so then called Julie for advice. This is not supported by the record though it is made up.  The record is what Jeremy said so they are contradicting Jeremy's testimony under oath.  They are making up evidence and claims to try to help Jeremy.  Advocates can't make up evidence though they have to go with the accounts from those who they are advocating for and the claism of other witnesses.

In a similar vein they make up that Nevill called police though there is no evidence at all to support such.  The entire claim is built upon the suggestion that West could not have made a mistake by recording the time the call ended or by misreading the clock or miswriting by accident but rather West was right about the time Jeremy called and Bonnett had to have right about receiving a call at 3:26 but it must have been from Nevill (Reader claims it was not directly a call from Nevill but that Nevill called West and then West called Bonnett and they doctored their logs to pretend the logs were referringing Jeremy's call.

There are giant leaps made from nothing basically and things made up instead of going with Jeremy's claims.  Not only can't such things be alleged to the Court of Appeals because there is no foundation but worse only very ignorant people won't see right through these efforts which amount to wanting to pretend Jeremy is innocent no matter what so drastically changing things and making up things to try to pretend such.

When someone is really innocent there is no need to make things up and pretend. There is genuine evidence that proves their innocence and thus the courts will be able to act.

Making up things only serves propaganda value to fool people and the only people fooled are the ignorant or the "choir" who decide to foll themselves and solicit propaganda to help them to have excuses to avoid facing reality.

I prefer being a realist and not deluding myself.  Sheila had an illness that caused her to suffer from delusions.  She didn't decide to delude herself.  That people willingly delude themselves is quite sad.   

 

[Reader]

There is something wrong in Jeremy's first statement, as it says that his father called him at 3:10 and he called Chelmsford Police immediately after finding that the WHF number was engaged. That would mean that he called the police much earlier than about 3:25, the time when he stated he called Julie and also the approximate time he supposedly called Pc West if we go by Bonnett's log. To some, this was due to the confusion of a guilty person. However, the police never drew his attention to this and asked him what else had happened between 3:10 and 3:25, which suggests they found it convenient for that period to be inadequately explained in his statement. They even ensured, during his interview in September, that he didn't see the sentence "About 3.10 a.m. I received a telephone call from my father." in his original statement when he asked them to let him see what he had put in his original statement, instead allowing him to read from 2 or 3 lines further on in the statement. Earlier, they had referred to the time of that call from his father as "some time after 3". It seems they were keen that he didn't find out that he had put 3.10am in that statement and realize that this time was incorrect.

[scipio_usmc]

There is something wrong in Jeremy's first statement, as it says that his father called him at 3:10 and he called Chelmsford Police immediately after finding that the WHF number was engaged. That would mean that he called the police much earlier than about 3:25, the time when he stated he called Julie and also the approximate time he supposedly called Pc West if we go by Bonnett's log. To some, this was due to the confusion of a guilty person. However, the police never drew his attention to this and asked him what else had happened between 3:10 and 3:25, which suggests they found it convenient for that period to be inadequately explained in his statement. They even ensured, during his interview in September, that he didn't see the sentence "About 3.10 a.m. I received a telephone call from my father." in his original statement when he asked them to let him see what he had put in his original statement, instead allowing him to read from 2 or 3 lines further on in the statement. Earlier, they had referred to the time of that call from his father as "some time after 3". It seems they were keen that he didn't find out that he had put 3.10am in that statement and realize that this time was incorrect.

They didn't want him to see his statement because they wanted to see what he would say without it.  He wanted his statement so that he could then parrot everything in it. They wanted him to tell the truth as he remembered it and if he contradicted his statement then they would catch him in lies.  If he was telling the truth both in his statement and during his interrogation his claims would match. If they don't match then he was either lying in his statement , during his interrogation or both.

He failed the test, the could not recall the lies he told initially and ended up contradicting himself repeatedly on a host of issues.

Nevill never phoned at all that was why he couldn't remember the time Nevill called and had such a problem being consistent about it.

[mike tesko]

The way I see it, is that there was originally no time reference of 3.10am in the hand written version of Jeremy's first witness statement. If their is then Jeremy didn't suggest that time, he was not in control of what a police officer was writing down. As anybody who has ever had a witness statement made in their name by a police officer, the officer asks you questions, you answer in one way or another, and the police officer paraphrases your reply, quite often writing down something different than you actually said in your own words. It's possible that the actual time written down in the hand written version of his witness statement actually says at about 3.20am, and then whenever someone has come along to type it out that they mistook the "2" for a "1", thereby inserting the time of 3.10am, instead of 3.20am...

We would need to have sight of the original hand written statement made out in the police officers own hand writing, signed on each page by Jeremy himself. It would also be necessary to see examples of DC Clark's and DS Jones hand writing style...

[mike tesko]

It is quite obvious that some members on this forum do not want to accept the fact, that Jeremy 2 calls to the police that first morning. One of these calls was to Witham police station at about 3.27 / 3.28am, the other which he made to Chelmsford police station was at 3.36am. The first call was not answered, the second one was...

Sandwiched in between both of Jeremy's calls to different police stations at the aforementioned times, was Jeremy's call to Julie Mugford at about 3.30am...

It does not take a genius to work out that whether or not Jeremy said at different times, he called Julie before or after he called police, is irrelevant, unless someone queried which of the 2 police phone calls Jeremy was referring too at the time he gave one answer, or another, since both of his answers are factually correct...

[Jane]

There is something wrong in Jeremy's first statement, as it says that his father called him at 3:10 and he called Chelmsford Police immediately after finding that the WHF number was engaged. That would mean that he called the police much earlier than about 3:25, the time when he stated he called Julie and also the approximate time he supposedly called Pc West if we go by Bonnett's log. To some, this was due to the confusion of a guilty person. However, the police never drew his attention to this and asked him what else had happened between 3:10 and 3:25, which suggests they found it convenient for that period to be inadequately explained in his statement. They even ensured, during his interview in September, that he didn't see the sentence "About 3.10 a.m. I received a telephone call from my father." in his original statement when he asked them to let him see what he had put in his original statement, instead allowing him to read from 2 or 3 lines further on in the statement. Earlier, they had referred to the time of that call from his father as "some time after 3". It seems they were keen that he didn't find out that he had put 3.10am in that statement and realize that this time was incorrect.

One is inclined to wonder exactly HOW the naughty and cunning police went about preventing Jeremy from seeing the words he'd said and what had induced them, at this early stage, to frame him  -COULD it be to cover the fact that West and Bonnett were covering the fact that they'd received a call from Neville and had chosen to withhold the information- do you think they kept hold of the statement, deliberately keeping their hand over what they wished to conceal? I was always under the impression that a statement is handed to the person who made it so they can ensure that their words have been written down as they said them. You are clearly privy to some kind of inside information as you seem to know that "earlier, they'd referred to the time of that call from his father as "some time after 3"...........or perhaps you were there?

[mike tesko]

It is also possible that PC West made a mistake in saying that by the time he contacted the operator at 3.42am, that it was infact 3.45 or 3.46am...

What I would like to have seen are PC Wests pocketbook entries relating to the timing of Jeremy's call to Chelmsford police station, and the time of contact with the operator, since PC West would have been duty bound to record such details accurately in his pocketbook in keeping with force policy regarding what must be recorded there...

[Jane]

It is quite obvious that some members on this forum do not want to accept the fact, that Jeremy 2 calls to the police that first morning. One of these calls was to Witham police station at about 3.27 / 3.28am, the other which he made to Chelmsford police station was at 3.36am. The first call was not answered, the second one was...

Sandwiched in between both of Jeremy's calls to different police stations at the aforementioned times, was Jeremy's call to Julie Mugford at about 3.30am...

It does not take a genius to work out that whether or not Jeremy said at different times, he called Julie before or after he called police, is irrelevant, unless someone queried which of the 2 police phone calls Jeremy was referring too at the time he gave one answer, or another, since both of his answers are factually correct...

Au contraire, Mike!!!  I feel certain that we're all FULLY aware of what Jeremy said he did. The problem is, NONE of it makes any sense, whether it's the time frame given by Jeremy......... and then changed OR the time frames made up by others. My only conclusion CAN be that had he GENUINELY received the alleged call from Neville, he'd have been galvanized into action by adrenalin and dialled 999. I think he treated it like a non emergency because that's exactly what it was.

[mike tesko]

The fact that the occupants of CA07 were deployed to the incident prior to Jeremy making his Chelmsford police station call, tells its own story. The fact of the matter is that police were already aware there was some sort of incident developing at whf before Jeremy even made contact with the police. I believe this is why the investigation during that first month had conflicting crime reference numbers, one from Chelmsford, and the other from Southend on Sea...

A month later, these two crime reference numbers were merged together and incorporated under a revised Chelmsford police crime reference number of SC/ 786/ 85...

To my knowledge, Jeremy has had very little information or access to Documents from the Southend on Sea file...

[mike tesko]

Au contraire, Mike!!!  I feel certain that we're all FULLY aware of what Jeremy said he did. The problem is, NONE of it makes any sense, whether it's the time frame given by Jeremy......... and then changed OR the time frames made up by others. My only conclusion CAN be that had he GENUINELY received the alleged call from Neville, he'd have been galvanized into action by adrenalin and dialled 999. I think he treated it like a non emergency because that's exactly what it was.

Nobody had been shot by that stage, at least Ralph's information imparted to Jeremy in that brief one sided conversation, never suggested that anyone at all had been shot, otherwise why did Ralph call Jeremy when he did, and he would have called for an ambulance. Why should Jeremy dash around like a man possessed based on what Ralph told him, particularly because of the fact that when Jeremy tried to phone back, he got a constant engaged tone, so he tried to ring With am police station. It was natural for Jeremy to think about trying to contact Witham police station because of the circumstances relayed to him by Ralph, and the engaged tone immediately afterwards, plus the fact that Ralph was a senior Magistrate at With am, so Jeremy thought that his father was speaking to police at Witham. So, after failing to contact his father at whf, and being unable to elkicit a response from With am police station, Jeremy decided to call his girlfriend at around 3.30am. That is the sequence of events, irrespective of the actual or perceived timing of those events. Julie told him to go back to bed, but he didn't, he was curious as to what was happening at the farm, so he ended up calling Chelmsford police, because With am police station where he had tried to contact minutes beforehand was a sub division of Chelmsford police station which was the Divisional head quarters of the area. There is nothing wrong or sinister in what Jeremy has reportedly taken place in his described sequence of events. After his call ended with Chelmsford police he went directly to the incident in keeping with what he was told over the phone to do by the police. If they had told him to stay at home in his cottage he would have done that waiting to be updated..,

[Jane]

Nobody had been shot by that stage, at least Ralph's information imparted to Jeremy in that brief one sided conversation, never suggested that anyone at all had been shot, otherwise why did Ralph call Jeremy when he did, and he would have called for an ambulance. Why should Jeremy dash around like a man possessed based on what Ralph told him, particularly because of the fact that when Jeremy tried to phone back, he got a constant engaged tone, so he tried to ring With am police station. It was natural for Jeremy to think about trying to contact Witham police station because of the circumstances relayed to him by Ralph, and the engaged tone immediately afterwards, plus the fact that Ralph was a senior Magistrate at With am, so Jeremy thought that his father was speaking to police at Witham. So, after failing to contact his father at whf, and being unable to elkicit a response from With am police station, Jeremy decided to call his girlfriend at around 3.30am. That is the sequence of events, irrespective of the actual or perceived timing of those events. Julie told him to go back to bed, but he didn't, he was curious as to what was happening at the farm, so he ended up calling Chelmsford police, because With am police station where he had tried to contact minutes beforehand was a sub division of Chelmsford police station which was the Divisional head quarters of the area. There is nothing wrong or sinister in what Jeremy has reportedly taken place in his described sequence of events. After his call ended with Chelmsford police he went directly to the incident in keeping with what he was told over the phone to do by the police. If they had told him to stay at home in his cottage he would have done that waiting to be updated..,

Pardon me, but at silly o'clock, supposedly being woken from sleep, by an otherwise quiet and rational man who thinks logically, to hear the words "Sheila has gone mad. She has got hold of a gun. Please come quickly" -it matters not if shots had already been fired OR if there was simply the threat of it happening-  THAT is why Jeremy "should have rushed around like a man possessed" and IMMEDIATELY dialled 999, but he didn't even though he told police that his father had sounded PANICKED. Because Jeremy never heard "panic" he couldn't FEEL panic which meant he couldn't react to it. I fail to see the rationale behind your belief that it was natural for Jeremy to try to think about phoning Witham because of the circumstances relayed to him, the circumstances being that his sister had gone mad and was brandishing a gun.

It seems to me that many haven't stopped to feel the TERROR that someone in Neville's alleged circumstances would be feeling and his words are repeated rote fashion. Jeremy didn't pick up on/react to the terror either because there was nothing TO react to. Jeremy made up Neville's words but was incapable of feeling and conveying the appropriate emotion that would have gone with them.

[susan]

Pardon me, but at silly o'clock, supposedly being woken from sleep, by an otherwise quiet and rational man who thinks logically, to hear the words "Sheila has gone mad. She has got hold of a gun. Please come quickly" -it matters not if shots had already been fired OR if there was simply the threat of it happening-  THAT is why Jeremy "should have rushed around like a man possessed" and IMMEDIATELY dialled 999, but he didn't even though he told police that his father had sounded PANICKED. Because Jeremy never heard "panic" he couldn't FEEL panic which meant he couldn't react to it. I fail to see the rationale behind your belief that it was natural for Jeremy to try to think about phoning Witham because of the circumstances relayed to him, the circumstances being that his sister had gone mad and was brandishing a gun.

It seems to me that many haven't stopped to feel the TERROR that someone in Neville's alleged circumstances would be feeling and his words are repeated rote fashion. Jeremy didn't pick up on/react to the terror either because there was nothing TO react to. Jeremy made up Neville's words but was incapable of feeling and conveying the appropriate emotion that would have gone with them.

April  excellent post which makes good sense to me.

[Caroline]

Pardon me, but at silly o'clock, supposedly being woken from sleep, by an otherwise quiet and rational man who thinks logically, to hear the words "Sheila has gone mad. She has got hold of a gun. Please come quickly" -it matters not if shots had already been fired OR if there was simply the threat of it happening-  THAT is why Jeremy "should have rushed around like a man possessed" and IMMEDIATELY dialled 999, but he didn't even though he told police that his father had sounded PANICKED. Because Jeremy never heard "panic" he couldn't FEEL panic which meant he couldn't react to it. I fail to see the rationale behind your belief that it was natural for Jeremy to try to think about phoning Witham because of the circumstances relayed to him, the circumstances being that his sister had gone mad and was brandishing a gun.

It seems to me that many haven't stopped to feel the TERROR that someone in Neville's alleged circumstances would be feeling and his words are repeated rote fashion. Jeremy didn't pick up on/react to the terror either because there was nothing TO react to. Jeremy made up Neville's words but was incapable of feeling and conveying the appropriate emotion that would have gone with them.

Great post April and let us not forget that Jeremy was crowing about how his sister was a 'nutter' - so not only has she 'got the gun', she's not just 'crazy' with rage, she's a NUTTER, giving the impression that she's capable of anything. Had the phone call occurred and he cared about the family, he would have been worried by the unpredictability and simply called 999 immediately.  It's just common sense!!

He made up the whole thing, what he couldn't make up are the proper reactions because he didn't feel them.

[Jane]

Great post April and let us not forget that Jeremy was crowing about how his sister was a 'nutter' - so not only has she 'got the gun', she's not just 'crazy' with rage, she's a NUTTER, giving the impression that she's capable of anything. Had the phone call occurred and he cared about the family, he would have been worried by the unpredictability and simply called 999 immediately.  It's just common sense!!

He made up the whole thing, what he couldn't make up are the proper reactions because he didn't feel them.

PERZACKERLY, Caroline :D