A paradox - with rifle at bedroom window, one bullet case too many linked to She

[scipio_usmc]

Some deluded people, claim that Ralph was shot with 7 bullets which caused 8 wounds - now for those of you who know BA's c arithmetic, 7 bullets fired at Ralph had 7 corresponding cartridge cases, 7 that is, not 8. There is therefore 1 additional NAL cartridge case recovered from the scene, added so that the police could argue that Ralph had been shot four tines non fatally whilst he was present in the bedroom. According these people, only three bullets caused the 4 non fatal injuries to Ralph. So, that's one inconsistent statistic sorted out...

Then, we have one additional bullet found in the bedroom, a whole bullet...

You are the on;y deluded person claiming 7 bullets caused Nevill's wounds.  You keep ignoring the graze wound and pretending that he didn't suffer it in an effort to pretend he only had 7 wounds.  You ignore the graze wound because the bullet associated with that wound was found in the master bedroom and you want to pretend he wasn't shot in the master bedroom.  All you are doing is further undermining your own credibility.  When will you learn that such doesn't in any way undermine the case against Jeremy it just undermines your own credibility?

[mike tesko]

You are the on;y deluded person claiming 7 bullets caused Nevill's wounds.  You keep ignoring the graze wound and pretending that he didn't suffer it in an effort to pretend he only had 7 wounds.  You ignore the graze wound because the bullet associated with that wound was found in the master bedroom and you want to pretend he wasn't shot in the master bedroom.  All you are doing is further undermining your own credibility.  When will you learn that such doesn't in any way undermine the case against Jeremy it just undermines your own credibility?

You yourself have stated that 7 bullets, caused 8 wounds, and that one of the bullets which caused two of the wounds fragmented, but that cannot include any of the 5 WHOLE BULLETS RECOVERED FROM THE MAIN BEDROOM, because none of those 5 had fragmented, so rather than have a go at me, look at yourself, making up things because you have no concrete or valid answer to the points I have raised, The only one deluded is you. You make up lie after lie without any evidence to back up what your saying. We now know that Mrs Jeapes whilst stands ng at the red / white corner of the farmhouse that she could not possibly even see the box room window, let alone the barrel of a rifle leaning against it. I can prove what I am saying very easily. I have given you more than enough rope to hang yourself with a dozen times over. The fact of the matter is that Jeapes could not even see the box room window from her vantage point covering the corner red / white. You have made up a story which cannot possibly be true, because the box room window you are placing so much hope in, is blocked off from view to anyone standing at the corner of red / white...

You need to get back to the drawing board and come up with a different scenario because your claim that Jeapes was referring to the box room window is hopelessly inaccurate and devastatingly misleading. You have shot yourself in the foot again, if anything its funny to see you making a Muppet out of yourself almost on a daily basis...

[mike tesko]

I established beyond all doubt she was at the White Containment site.  Your lies jsut ruin whatever credibility you might have remaining in the eyes of some.  You night as well stop with the BS and just try arguing based on the actual facts instead of made up nonsense.

She was covering, in firearm terms, the corner of white / red...

You haven't got a clue what your on about..,

Anshuzt rifle was the gun she saw leaning against the main bedroom window, whilst she was covering the corner of white / red. You can see the bedroom window I am referring to, from the vantage point of being stood at the corner of white / red, but you cannot see the box room window because there is an obstruction prevent a clear sight of the box room window from someone like Jeaoes who was stood at white / red corner...

You have clearly lost the argument so I suggest you shut up before you turn yourself into a bungling bafoon...

[mike tesko]

There is one bullet case too many (25) in the batch of crime scene ammunition, if one of the 7 bullets fired at Ralph Bamber caused two injuries, that is two of the eight wounds caused by one of the 7 bullets. There can only therefore have been in existence only 7 corresponding cartridge cases to these 7 bullets, but there exists 25 cartridge cases, 25 bullet wounds, and 25 bullets - things simply do not tally. What I mean is they do, but they shouldn't...

[mike tesko]

There is one bullet case too many (25) in the batch of crime scene ammunition, if one of the 7 bullets fired at Ralph Bamber caused two injuries, that is two of the eight wounds caused by one of the 7 bullets. There can only therefore have been in existence only 7 corresponding cartridge cases to these 7 bullets, but there exists 25 cartridge cases, 25 bullet wounds, and 25 bullets - things simply do not tally. What I mean is they do, but they shouldn't...

There should be by your theory, 26 bullet wounds, 25 bullets, and 25 cartridge cases...

[mike tesko]

According to the pathologist, Venezis, he removed 8 bullets, or part bullets from Ralph Bambers body, not 7, and none of the five WHOLE BULLETS from within the main bedroom scene, had fragmented, so pieces of one of these 5 WHOLE BULLETS found at the scene had not broken off and been treated as an independent 8th bullet. Instead what we have got are 5 bodies, 25 bullet wounds, 25 bullets, and 25 cartridge cases, it is a paradox, it adds up, but it shouldn't according to your theory...

[scipio_usmc]

You yourself have stated that 7 bullets, caused 8 wounds, and that one of the bullets which caused two of the wounds fragmented, but that cannot include any of the 5 WHOLE BULLETS RECOVERED FROM THE MAIN BEDROOM, because none of those 5 had fragmented, so rather than have a go at me, look at yourself, making up things because you have no concrete or valid answer to the points I have raised,

You continue to lie like a rug.

I repeatedly listed the 8 wounds he suffered and even identified the largest fragment from each of the 8 bullets thus establishing 8 bullets caused 8 wounds.  I mentioned that the graze wound though caused by a single bullet and thus classified as a single gunshot wound resulted in 3 distinct injuries- graze to the arm above the elbow, graze to the chest and tiny entrance wound in the side where a small portion of the bullet entered.  The largest fragment from the bullet that grazed Nevill was not 2.59 grams (the weight of a complete bullet) it was 2.42 grams.  .17 grams broke off and some of tha which broke off went inside Nevill. It was so tiny Vanezis couldn't recover any despite the Xray showing they were present.

You keep lying about the weight of the complete bullets so you can pretend that some of the bullet fragments were complete or pretend they were a different caliber so you can pretend police shot some of the victims.  These lies just make you look like a dishonest clown, you should stop killing your own credibility and join us in the real world.

Here again is what I posted regarding the wounds and the largest fragment recovered that correponds to each wound the only bullet that had nothing recovered was a bullet that fragmented into small pieces inside of Nicholas:

Master Bedroom
Nevill
PV/2  (Shoulder)
DRH/5 (Arm/chest Graze wound)
PV/10 (lip)         
PV/11 (jaw)

June
PV/23 lower chest
PV/26 above right ear
PV/24 right upper chest
PV/25 between eyes 
DRH/35a lower neck (bullet exited into pillow)
DRH/35b forearm (bullet exited into pillow)
DRH/9 knee (bullet exited into bed)

Sheila
PV/19 chin
PV/20 neck

Kitchen
Nevill
PV/3 top of skull
PV/4 top of skull
PV/8 upper right skull
PV/9 upper right skull

Bedroom the twins were in
Daniel
PV/34 (highest wound)
PV/35
PV/36
PV/29
DRH/36 (bullet exited and landed in bedroom)

Nicholas
PV/30
PV/31
(bullet 3 fragmented into small parts in the head and was not recovered)

The only one deluded is you. You make up lie after lie without any evidence to back up what your saying. We now know that Mrs Jeapes whilst stands ng at the red / white corner of the farmhouse that she could not possibly even see the box room window, let alone the barrel of a rifle leaning against it. I can prove what I am saying very easily. I have given you more than enough rope to hang yourself with a dozen times over. The fact of the matter is that Jeapes could not even see the box room window from her vantage point covering the corner red / white. You have made up a story which cannot possibly be true, because the box room window you are placing so much hope in, is blocked off from view to anyone standing at the corner of red / white...

You need to get back to the drawing board and come up with a different scenario because your claim that Jeapes was referring to the box room window is hopelessly inaccurate and devastatingly misleading. You have shot yourself in the foot again, if anything its funny to see you making a Muppet out of yourself almost on a daily basis...

Jeapes stated she was watching the kitchen door, could see the kitchen windows and even described who she replaced- they were men who had been at the White containment location.  I also established who actually was at the red/white location- it wasn't her.

She made a mistake in calling her position red/white it was simply white.  I already prove my points with substantial evidence you lost the debate as you always do because you lie instead of facing the evidence honestly.

If she had been at the location you claim 3 different windows fit the description she provided of surrounded by gray brick so you wouldn't be able to prove she meant the master bedroom window anyway in that instance but she clearly was facing the kitchen at the white containment site.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6630.0.html

I don't know who you think you are fooling with your lies. I'll further prove your lies by giving you an incentive. You keep claiming Nevill bought Eley 35 grain unjacketed subsonic rounds.  As I already established there is no such round you made it up the subsonic rounds were all 40 grain both solid subsonic and hollow point subsonic. I could again challenge you to post evidence that the rounds Nevill bought were 35 grain.  I won't even bother requiring such specific proof I will make a more generalized challenge.  Post evidence that at the time Nevill purchased the ammo and weapon that Eley made a non-jacketed 35 grain subsonic round.  If you can prove they made such a round I will stop posting on this site.  You could get me out of your hair.  If despite that incentive you can't produce a shred of evidence that Eley made a 35 grain round then that is clear evidence that you made up the claim and you might as well simply come clean about it.

[mike tesko]

First things first...

The ballistic experts ( Fletcher and Mead) in this case, do not link two of the eight bullets, or bullet fragments to one of the same bullets recovered during autopsy, or to any of the 5 loose recovered WHOLE BULLET from the main bedroom. Although both Fletcher and Mead are experts neither of them could physically link any of the 25 individual bullets, or pieces of bullet to any one of the recovered 25 cartridge cases, nor might I add, any part of a bullet, to another part of another bullet recovered from the body of Ralph Bamber during autopsy, or any victims bodies during their respective autopsies, or from the scene. But in order to try to make some sort of sense out of the logistical chaos that clearly exists involving the number of bullet wounds to victims, bullets or part bullets recovered from the bodies of victims and at the scene, and the number of recovered bullet cases, you have theorized that in order to account for the existence of a 5th WHOLE BULLET found in the main bedroom, that one part of one of the 8 bullets recovered by the pathologist during autopsy is somehow linked to one of these 5 WHOLE BULLETS recovered separately from inside the main bedroom. Well, the fact of the matter is, that neither ballistic expert  nor the pathologist, or even counsel for prosecution or the defence, nor even the trial judge, has ever attempted to suggest that which you have decided must be true. There is no evidence either from the examination of Ralph's body during autopsy, or examination of bullets, or part bullets recovered from Ralph's body, or gathered loosely from inside the bedroom, that two of the wounds were, as you put it caused by two parts of the same bullet, albeit one part of this bullet was recovered from inside his body during autopsy, whilst the other part was recovered from the main bedroom by DC Hammerskey?  None of the experts, allege that any of the 8 bullets, or part bullets recovered from Ralph's body during autopsy, could be linked to any other part of a bullet found in his body, or elsewhere, for example, loosely at the scene in the main bedroom?

The bullet weights I have been referring to were published in one of the Manchester McKensie reports on the Bamber case, and weighed, 2.27gram, which does not convert to 40 grain. The chart in question was posted on one of the earlier sites on the internet accompanying one of the Manchester McKensie Reports also posted up about the same time. This chart gave comparison bullet weights for differently manufactured bullets, including many of the types of bullet used in these killings. I do have a copy of the chart and the accompanying Report somewhere amongst the thousands of documents retained by me regarding the case, but I am unable at the moment to lay my hands upon it, due to us moving house a couple of years ago, and all the documents getting mixed up during the move from one house to another. But when I eventually get around to laying my hands on it, I will repost it so that this matter can be cleared up once and for all...

[mike tesko]

Explain how the loose WHOLE BULLET (DRH/36) ended up being found in the children's bedroom, as opposed to the main bedroom, if as you say, Ralph had been shot as many as 4 times whilst he was present inside the main bedroom? Give us your explanation for how he was shot 4 times in the main bedroom, supported by eventual cartridge case recovery, and the bullet which grazed his arm, and everything else it is supposed to have done to Ralph whilst he was in the main bedroom, but the WHOLE BULLET (DRH/36) end up in another bedroom where the children had been sleeping at the time of their murders? Which bedroom are you now claiming the exiting bullet was found in, (a) the main bedroom, or (b) the children's bedroom?

[mike tesko]

I can't accept the proposition you have placed before me, because I think the idea that Ralph had been shot 8 times with 8 bullets, whilst present inside the main bedroom, with a cartridge case eventually allocated to one of 4 shots inflicted upon him whilst in the main bedroom, yet part of the same bullet which had caused two of the 8 bullet wounds, ends up being discovered in a different part of the farmhouse, with no scientific or ballistic evidence in existence to support such an allegation? Your theory is a fanciful idea, but it stretches the boundary of a persons imagination for anyone to even remotely accept what you are saying...

[mike tesko]

I can't accept the proposition you have placed before me, because I think the idea that Ralph had been shot 8 times with 8 bullets, whilst present inside the main bedroom, with a cartridge case eventually allocated to one of 4 shots inflicted upon him whilst in the main bedroom, yet part of the same bullet which had caused two of the 8 bullet wounds, ends up being discovered in a different part of the farmhouse, with no scientific or ballistic evidence in existence to support such an allegation? Your theory is a fanciful idea, but it stretches the boundary of a persons imagination for anyone to even remotely accept what you are saying...

Exactly how could a bullet which was fired at Ralph in one bedroom, leave part of itself embedded inside Ralph's body, yet the bulk of the same bullet, somehow penetrate through solid brick walls, around corners, through a door, without leaving any sign of a bullet hole in a wall or a door, showing the route such a bullet must have taken for your theory to be remotely correct?

[scipio_usmc]

First things first...

The ballistic experts ( Fletcher and Mead) in this case, do not link two of the eight bullets, or bullet fragments to one of the same bullets recovered during autopsy, or to any of the 5 loose recovered WHOLE BULLET from the main bedroom. Although both Fletcher and Mead are experts neither of them could physically link any of the 25 individual bullets, or pieces of bullet to any one of the recovered 25 cartridge cases, nor might I add, any part of a bullet, to another part of another bullet recovered from the body of Ralph Bamber during autopsy, or any victims bodies during their respective autopsies, or from the scene. But in order to try to make some sort of sense out of the logistical chaos that clearly exists involving the number of bullet wounds to victims, bullets or part bullets recovered from the bodies of victims and at the scene, and the number of recovered bullet cases, you have theorized that in order to account for the existence of a 5th WHOLE BULLET found in the main bedroom, that one part of one of the 8 bullets recovered by the pathologist during autopsy is somehow linked to one of these 5 WHOLE BULLETS recovered separately from inside the main bedroom. Well, the fact of the matter is, that neither ballistic expert  nor the pathologist, or even counsel for prosecution or the defence, nor even the trial judge, has ever attempted to suggest that which you have decided must be true. There is no evidence either from the examination of Ralph's body during autopsy, or examination of bullets, or part bullets recovered from Ralph's body, or gathered loosely from inside the bedroom, that two of the wounds were, as you put it caused by two parts of the same bullet, albeit one part of this bullet was recovered from inside his body during autopsy, whilst the other part was recovered from the main bedroom by DC Hammerskey?  None of the experts, allege that any of the 8 bullets, or part bullets recovered from Ralph's body during autopsy, could be linked to any other part of a bullet found in his body, or elsewhere, for example, loosely at the scene in the main bedroom?

The bullet weights I have been referring to were published in one of the Manchester McKensie reports on the Bamber case, and weighed, 2.27gram, which does not convert to 40 grain. The chart in question was posted on one of the earlier sites on the internet accompanying one of the Manchester McKensie Reports also posted up about the same time. This chart gave comparison bullet weights for differently manufactured bullets, including many of the types of bullet used in these killings. I do have a copy of the chart and the accompanying Report somewhere amongst the thousands of documents retained by me regarding the case, but I am unable at the moment to lay my hands upon it, due to us moving house a couple of years ago, and all the documents getting mixed up during the move from one house to another. But when I eventually get around to laying my hands on it, I will repost it so that this matter can be cleared up once and for all...

There is no such thing as proving a bullet fragment was in a particular spent case. You prove the caliber of bullet fragment is the same caliber as the casing and that along with the totality of the circumstances and logic proves they are related.

There were no whole bullets, there were non-whole fragments recovered from the victims and scene. None of the bullets used at trial were whole except the bullets in unfired cartridges.

Claims made by Manchester Mckenzie are claims not facts or evidence. Only if their claims are supported by proof does it amount to evidence or facts. You shouldn't need to look for their allegations I didn't require proof that Nevill bought 35 grain subsonic bullets which you attributed to them.  I challenged you to prove Eley was marketing 35 grain subsonic bullets at the time Nevill made his purchase.  If they marketed 35 grain subsonic bullets then surely you should be able to find some reference to such bullets on the net somewhere.  There are tons of old bullets for sale. Their old product catalogs are around, I found some of them.  Books dicuss the ballistic properties of their ammunition. There is a reason why google searches for 35 grain Eley subsonic Hollowpoint and Subsonic LRN turn up nothing- they didn't market 35 grain subsonic bullets and still don't today.  Manchester McKenzie's claims that the unfired Eley bullets were 35 grain is easily seen as wrong in light of the fact Eley didn't market any such bullets.

You have no evidence to establish any of the bullets or shell casings were replaced. You ar elong on allegations but short on evidence.   



 

[mike tesko]

Based upon your idea, that the loose bullet (DRH/36) was found inside the children's bedroom, as opposed to inside the main bedroom, surely it would be more likely that on at least one occasion, that Ralph had been shot at on at least one occasion whilst present in the children's bedroom, and that therefore one of the 8 cartridge cases found in the children's bedroom, was in fact one linked with the loose bullet (DRH/36) which had fragmented upon impact leaving the presence of itself inside one of the wounds in his left arm, whilst the other part of the same bullet had exited into the children's bedroom, not the parents bedroom? Therefore, if this had been correct, then one of the bullet cases found in the main bedroom must have been added to the main bedroom scenario, to enable the prosecution during trial that Ralph had been shot as many as up to 4 times whilst present in the main bedroom, but according to this theory of yours, he must have been shot at least once whilst he was present in the children's bedroom...

That means does it not, that if Ralph had been shot at once whilst he was in the children's bedroom, then one of the 12 main bedroom cartridge cases which were recovered from there, did not get there at the time he was shot inside the other bedroom...

[mike tesko]

There is no such thing as proving a bullet fragment was in a particular spent case. You prove the caliber of bullet fragment is the same caliber as the casing and that along with the totality of the circumstances and logic proves they are related.

There were no whole bullets, there were non-whole fragments recovered from the victims and scene. None of the bullets used at trial were whole except the bullets in unfired cartridges.

Claims made by Manchester Mckenzie are claims not facts or evidence. Only if their claims are supported by proof does it amount to evidence or facts. You shouldn't need to look for their allegations I didn't require proof that Nevill bought 35 grain subsonic bullets which you attributed to them.  I challenged you to prove Eley was marketing 35 grain subsonic bullets at the time Nevill made his purchase.  If they marketed 35 grain subsonic bullets then surely you should be able to find some reference to such bullets on the net somewhere.  There are tons of old bullets for sale. Their old product catalogs are around, I found some of them.  Books dicuss the ballistic properties of their ammunition. There is a reason why google searches for 35 grain Eley subsonic Hollowpoint and Subsonic LRN turn up nothing- they didn't market 35 grain subsonic bullets and still don't today.  Manchester McKenzie's claims that the unfired Eley bullets were 35 grain is easily seen as wrong in light of the fact Eley didn't market any such bullets.

You have no evidence to establish any of the bullets or shell casings were replaced. You ar elong on allegations but short on evidence.

First of all, the comparison chart which I have mentioned, was the source from which the bullet weights of 2.27 grams was obtained from. In that chart it makes mention of the fact that a certain type of .22 ammunition which had been manufactured by Eley weighed 2.27 gram, which equates when converted into grains, about 35 grain, not 40 grain. Since this chart formed part of their Report into the circumstances of the shooting of the victims in the Bamber case, I have no reason to doubt that the information contained in the comparison chart was / is genuine...

[scipio_usmc]

Based upon your idea, that the loose bullet (DRH/36) was found inside the children's bedroom, as opposed to inside the main bedroom, surely it would be more likely that on at least one occasion, that Ralph had been shot at on at least one occasion whilst present in the children's bedroom, and that therefore one of the 8 cartridge cases found in the children's bedroom, was in fact one linked with the loose bullet (DRH/36) which had fragmented upon impact leaving the presence of itself inside one of the wounds in his left arm, whilst the other part of the same bullet had exited into the children's bedroom, not the parents bedroom? Therefore, if this had been correct, then one of the bullet cases found in the main bedroom must have been added to the main bedroom scenario, to enable the prosecution during trial that Ralph had been shot as many as up to 4 times whilst present in the main bedroom, but according to this theory of yours, he must have been shot at least once whilst he was present in the children's bedroom...

That means does it not, that if Ralph had been shot at once whilst he was in the children's bedroom, then one of the 12 main bedroom cartridge cases which were recovered from there, did not get there at the time he was shot inside the other bedroom...

Why would DRH/36 be linked to Nevill?  7 of the 8 bullets that accounted for Nevill's wounds were recovered from his body.  The 8th related to his graze wound was recovered from the master bedroom.  He had only 8 wounds that accounts for all of them.  There is nothing to suggest he was shot in the room the boys were in, DRH/36 exited Daniel's body it is related to his exit wound.  Only 4 bullets were recovered from his body because the 5th bullet exited his body. DHR/36 is the largest fragment of the bullet that exited his body.