Author Topic: A paradox - with rifle at bedroom window, one bullet case too many linked to She  (Read 23857 times)

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Offline lookout

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Don't worry Mike.Using the words of Neville," It'll all come out in the wash ",even though at the moment they've thrown the baby out with the bathwater. ::) ::) ::)

Offline Jane

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Don't worry Mike.Using the words of Neville," It'll all come out in the wash ",even though at the moment they've thrown the baby out with the bathwater. ::) ::) ::)


And it did. They originally believed it was Sheila :)

Offline lookout

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And it did. They originally believed it was Sheila :)






Years ago,April,there were the murders of two men in Liverpool. It was called the Cameo Murders,and if ever there was a MOJ,it was the two who were blamed and duly hanged for the murders.
Police had collected 75,000 statements and had also knocked on hundreds of doors tracking these murderers down,it was a massive police hunt at the time.
After some weeks,the police received a letter at their headquarters naming the two suspects,who were petty crooks.
When both men were interviewed,they vehemently denied being involved,but despite their protestations,they were put on trial.
Bearing in mind that when both men were singularly/separately put on trial,the prosecution had no forensic evidence and no eyewitnesses to the crime.
The main prosecution witness was a woman----------a prostitute,who'd heard talk of the said crime being carried out by one of the two who'd hanged,that he was going to rob the cinema,except that he wasn't in the same pub as the prostitute who'd allegedly heard him planning his crime.
The guy,who'd been shouting his innocence every day to the prison guards,was hanged in 1950,and in 2003 the Court of Appeal posthumously overturned his conviction,declaring it unsafe after the case had been referred to the CCRC.
The name of the poor sod who was hanged on the say-so of a woman,was George Kelly.   

Offline lookout

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 Give a dog a bad name------------a petty thief------a scorned woman,and there you have it.A conviction.

Offline lookout

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It's like when a woman shouts rape-----------------but is it always ? Then an innocent man gets his name daubed all over the press. All wrong !!

Offline Jane

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Years ago,April,there were the murders of two men in Liverpool. It was called the Cameo Murders,and if ever there was a MOJ,it was the two who were blamed and duly hanged for the murders.
Police had collected 75,000 statements and had also knocked on hundreds of doors tracking these murderers down,it was a massive police hunt at the time.
After some weeks,the police received a letter at their headquarters naming the two suspects,who were petty crooks.
When both men were interviewed,they vehemently denied being involved,but despite their protestations,they were put on trial.
Bearing in mind that when both men were singularly/separately put on trial,the prosecution had no forensic evidence and no eyewitnesses to the crime.
The main prosecution witness was a woman----------a prostitute,who'd heard talk of the said crime being carried out by one of the two who'd hanged,that he was going to rob the cinema,except that he wasn't in the same pub as the prostitute who'd allegedly heard him planning his crime.
The guy,who'd been shouting his innocence every day to the prison guards,was hanged in 1950,and in 2003 the Court of Appeal posthumously overturned his conviction,declaring it unsafe after the case had been referred to the CCRC.
The name of the poor sod who was hanged on the say-so of a woman,was George Kelly.   


Lookout, there is never any such thing as being 100% right which means that there is also no such thing as a 100% safeguard. Where humans are concerned, mistakes will ALWAYS be made in all walks of life and right across the spectrum  -which is why I find SO strange, especially given the example of fallibility you give, your stance on the death sentence-  it isn't right, it isn't fair (but there's no book that says life IS fair) but it happens and hard though that fact may be, accepting that bad things DO sometimes happen to good people maybe preferable to have permanent concussion, which could render us mentally incapable, from banging our heads against a wall which won't move.

Offline lookout

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Lookout, there is never any such thing as being 100% right which means that there is also no such thing as a 100% safeguard. Where humans are concerned, mistakes will ALWAYS be made in all walks of life and right across the spectrum  -which is why I find SO strange, especially given the example of fallibility you give, your stance on the death sentence-  it isn't right, it isn't fair (but there's no book that says life IS fair) but it happens and hard though that fact may be, accepting that bad things DO sometimes happen to good people maybe preferable to have permanent concussion, which could render us mentally incapable, from banging our heads against a wall which won't move.






Now,there isn't such a thing as being 100% right,but when the death penalty still stood,there was even less room for any mistakes. It definitely would have been a question of having been over-zealous in the days of hanging,as a previous crime or a dodgy chap would have spelled a death sentence,but our times now of DNA and in-depth examinations/forensics should make it foolproof ( idiotproof ) of anyone getting it wrong.
Yes,I'd still like to see the back of those who were convicted,as I'd mentioned, Brady,Sutcliffe,along with others who beyond reasonable doubt,a heinous crime had been committed.
A judge/hangman is only as good as the information put before him. Should that be wrong,then no blame can be put upon them. If information is lacking or incorrect,then a MOJ follows,or as in George Kelly's case,the gallows.

Offline mike tesko

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Why would the police produce a false photographic album which they named 'THE MASTER COPY ALBUM' containing 223 photographs, if the total number of photographs taken in connection with the investigation was 581? Why would the police want to deceive everybody who had a right to know into thinking they took 358 fewer photographs than they actually did? You don't deliberately seek to withhold and conceal 358 photographs for no reason at all. They deliberately concealed those 358 photographs because to disclose them would have effectively destroyed the case which the police and relatives had brought against Jeremy. What we are dealing with here is A STATE led Conspiracy, where the police know that Jeremy Bamber did not kill his sister, because she was still alive and she had not even been shot at all at the time the first group of firearms officers entered the farmhouse...
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 05:34:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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In Jeremy's letter (posted above) none of us should be left in any doubt about who had laid the anshuzt rifle upon Sheila's body in order that Cook could get PC Bird to photograph it there at around 11.10am. Yes, the rifle which had been photographed leaning against the bedroom window at 10.25am, had 45 minutes later jumped back on top of Sheila's body, and her arms and her hands must have adjusted themselves upon and around the gun all by themselves, because instead of Cook admitting to being the person who put the rifle back onto Sheila's body at some stage after 10.25am, and he being the only person present inside the bedroom at that stage and time, to have been able to move the rifle from the window onto the body, and readjust her arms and hands around the gun, instead he claims that he did it the other way around, he claims that he moved Sheila's hand so that PC Bird could take photographs of bloodied fingermarks that were present upon the front lower part of Sheila's nightdress, before he removed the rifle from the body and stood it against the bedroom window. Clearly, Ron Cook has got a great deal of answering to do when any fresh police investigation looks into these matters. Ron Cook is responsible for stage managing the body of Sheila Caffell, with the anshuzt rifle upon it, with a view of trying to make it look like she had taken her own life. Why would Ron Cook take it upon himself to do this?

If you are the senior officer in charge of the crime scene say from 10 O'clock onward, and the only other people officially present inside the farmhouse from 10 O'clock onward, you would not make decisions about moving a rifle onto the body of one of the five victims, and arrange that victims hands upon and around the gun, with the view to making it look like that victim might have shot herself twice in the neck, if indeed she had nor...

Ron Cook was responsible for doing that which Jeremy has been held accountable for doing. If Jeremy did not stage manage his sisters body to make out the argument that his sister had killed herself by turning the rifle upon herself and ending her own life, then he has to be innocent by any bodies standards. Jeremy Bamber did not kill his sister, he did not shoot her dead, nor did he arrange his sisters body with use of the gun to leave an impression that she had taken her own life. Ron Cook has now been identified by me, as the person who was / is responsible for doing that. All the other SOCO's who were present in that bedroom at that time, know what Ron Cook had done and did. With this in mind there should be a fresh call for a new police investigation, involving the claim which I am making, which is that the entire group of SOCO's who attended the scene that morning be arrested, interviewed, and where necessary or appropriate, they all should be charged with Conspiracy to pervert the course of justice, forgery, and perjery. In referring with a crime scene like has happed in this case, is a very serious matter, and it is in the public interest to prosecute all those involved in Sheila Caffells murder, since this was a case where Sheila almost certainly single handedly shot and killed the others, but not herself. In fact, the police shot her, and although the circumstances of how she got shot by the police did have mitigating circumstances, this cannot now in the cold light if day be a defence to get them out of the more, because they have purposely and deliberately tampered with the body of Sheila at the scene, they tampered with the gun, the bible, and they have been in control and possession of the batches of crime scene ammunition which they also tampered with. It can be argued that they tampered with the sound moderator evidence, that they altered exhibit references to accommodate adding 4 cartridge cases to the main bedroom scene, and last but not least they had to falsify the photographic records to make what they had gone to all the trouble of doing look right...
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 06:18:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Another significant finding by me as part of this police investigation, which had no less than 7 different crime reference numbers at one time or another, concerns the role played by DS 'Stan' Jones in the case that was eventually brought against Jeremy Bamber. Jones had his hands into all the key areas of contentious evidence. He (1) took possession of a sound moderator at the scene, on the 7th August 1985, (2) he took a photograph inside the downstairs toilet at the scene which he says he destroyed, but he didn't destroy it, and neither did PC Bird include it in his photographic schedules, (3) he mithered Julie Mugford into giving evidence implicating Jeremy in the murders, by interviewing her over 30 times, (4) he got himself involved in the crime scene ammunition substitution program, and even signed the general examination records for these at the lab, (5)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 06:49:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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I have now (I believe traced the source of the following data relating to 35 grain Eley bullets:-

These 500 rounds were SMOKELESS NON CORROSIVE types...
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 08:26:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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This data was published in the June 1985 publication of AMERICAN RIFLEMAN...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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With my example in mind, June got shot five times in the main bedroom, one of these shots could have included one of the double magazine marked cartridge cases (if loaded into the rifles breech prior to the loading of new bullets into the weapon by Jeremy on the previous evening), the other four bullets / cartridge cases bearing only one set of magazine marks, also fired in the main bedroom at that time. Alternatively, if one of the 5 double marked cartridges was not loaded into the breech, then June was shot by new bullets loaded into the rifles magazine by Jeremy on the previous evening, all 5 corresponding cartridge cases bearing only one set of magazine marks...

Loaded Rifle, with double marked round in breech, and a further four double marked rounds, followed by six single magazine marks, totalling 11 rounds:-

Loaded and fired, as follows

Round      loaded sequence     fired sequence            Who was Shot, and location?


    1    (breech)   0 (double marked)    1     June Bamber   *** (Main bedroom)
    2     (MAG')    10 (single marked)     2     June Bamber         (Main bedroom)
    3     (MAG')     9  (single marked)     3     June Bamber         (Main bedroom)   
    4     (MAG')     8 (single marked)     4     June Bamber          (Main bedroom)
    5     (MAG')     7 (single marked)     5     June Bamber          (Main bedroom)
    6     (MAG')     6 (single marked)     6     Child (a)                 (Childs bedroom)
    7     (MAG')     5 (single marked)     7     Child (b)                 (Childs bedroom)
    8     (MAG')     4 (double marked)    8     Child (a)         ***   Childs room)
    9     (MAG')     3  (double marked)   9     Child (b)         ***   Childs room
   10    (MAG')     2  (double marked)  10    Ralph Bamber ***  (Main bedroom)?
   11    (MAG')     1 (double marked)  11    Ralph Bamber ***   (Kitchen)

He was shot in the bedroom 4 times.  The gun was empty before Nevill and his killer went into the kitchen.  Nevill was beaten unconscious, the gun was reloaded and then he was shot 4 times int he kitchen.  The killer then fully reloaded using 8 on the boys, 2 on Sheila and one between June's eyes just to "make sure"

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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He was shot in the bedroom 4 times No, he wasn't, you are totally wrong about that .  The gun was empty before Nevill and his killer went into the kitchen The gun was emptied in the kitchen.  Nevill was beaten unconscious He may have been struck with the rifle after being shot in the kitchen at a time when there was no further rounds in the gun. There is also a possibility that when Ralph fell about in the kitchen after being shot there that he fell into furniture or hard surfaces and banged his head or face , the gun was reloaded and then he was shot 4 times No, he was shot more than four times in the kitchen region, bullet cases have been relocated at the scene to make out the case for him having been shot as many as four times whilst present in the kitchen, there is no matching blood evidence in the main bedroom linking him being shot once there, let alone four times int he kitchen.  The killer then fully reloaded using 8 on the boys, No, Sheila did not fully reload and go back upstairs to shoot the children 8 times, because both were already dead, both having already been dispensed with during the discharge of the first load of the gun 2 on Sheila No, Sheila did not die until after the firearms officers entered the building at which stage PS Woodcock discharged the non fatal shot across her neck, as per the contents of the action report bearing No. 1612, relating to the shooting in the kitchen and one between June's eyes Again, you are wrong, because June was shot with the sixth and seventh bullets whilst still on the bed, after she had previously gone walkabouts - she actually collapsed back onto the bed, and was later moved to the bedroom door area, in the same way Sheila's body was removed from the bed and placed on the floor on the other side of the bed just to "make sure"
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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He was shot in the bedroom 4 times No, he wasn't, you are totally wrong about that .  The gun was empty before Nevill and his killer went into the kitchen The gun was emptied in the kitchen.  Nevill was beaten unconscious He may have been struck with the rifle after being shot in the kitchen at a time when there was no further rounds in the gun. There is also a possibility that when Ralph fell about in the kitchen after being shot there that he fell into furniture or hard surfaces and banged his head or face , the gun was reloaded and then he was shot 4 times No, he was shot more than four times in the kitchen region, bullet cases have been relocated at the scene to make out the case for him having been shot as many as four times whilst present in the kitchen, there is no matching blood evidence in the main bedroom linking him being shot once there, let alone four times int he kitchen.  The killer then fully reloaded using 8 on the boys, No, Sheila did not fully reload and go back upstairs to shoot the children 8 times, because both were already dead, both having already been dispensed with during the discharge of the first load of the gun 2 on Sheila No, Sheila did not die until after the firearms officers entered the building at which stage PS Woodcock discharged the non fatal shot across her neck, as per the contents of the action report bearing No. 1612, relating to the shooting in the kitchen and one between June's eyes Again, you are wrong, because June was shot with the sixth and seventh bullets whilst still on the bed, after she had previously gone walkabouts - she actually collapsed back onto the bed, and was later moved to the bedroom door area, in the same way Sheila's body was removed from the bed and placed on the floor on the other side of the bed just to "make sure"

If the gun still had ammunition in it when the killer and Nevill were in the kitchen then the killer would simply have shot Nevill- he was beaten so the killer could reload in peace and then shoot him.  The killer didn't decide you know what forget shooting him I will beat him unconscious first for fun then shoot him.

Nevill was shot 4 times int he bedroom the shots were as he was in the process or rising most likely given the angle of the shots and his left profile side was facing the killer for these shots.  3 bullets entered his body 1 grazed his body and was found in the room.

The gun was clearly emptied into the parents then when it was unloaded Nevill or he killer ran to the kitchen with the other giving chase and then they fought.  This is the only thing that makes sense and the evidence supports it. 
 
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 11:18:PM by scipio_usmc »
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry