Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?

[Kaldin]

Also if Jeremy had run or cycled back to Goldhanger he must of been sweaty.
No mention of this.

Depending on what time he did it obviously. Say he did the deed at 2 am. Plenty of time for composing himself.

If he did it, I would say he did it even before 2 am.

[Paul]

Imagine that you had just murdered 5 people. Could you compose yourself.
With the best will in the world the addrenalin would be flowing.

I'm fairly sure that many murderers manage to compose themselves enough after the event to pass themselves off as having not done it.

[clifford]

I agree, but not many murderers are stood next to plod within hours of the murder.

[Alias]

Mugford spills the beans!

In her second statement to police, Julie Mugford said Jeremy had talked disparagingly about his "old" father, his "mad" mother, his sister who he said had nothing to live for, and the twins who he said were disturbed. Bamber denied this, saying she was making the allegations only because he jilted her.
 
Mugford's mother also said Bamber had told her he "hated" his adoptive mother and described her as mad. A friend of Mugford's testified that Bamber had said around February 1985 that his parents kept him short of money, his mother was a religious freak, and "I fucking hate my parents." A farm worker testified that he seemed not to get on with Sheila and had once said: "I'm not going to share my money with my sister".

In discussions Mugford said she had dismissed his rants as fantasies, he said he wanted to sedate his parents and set fire to the farmhouse. He reportedly said Sheila would make a good scapegoat. Mugford alleged he had discussed entering the house through the kitchen window because the catch was broken, and leaving it via a different window that latched when it was shut from the outside. She said she spent the weekend before the murders with him in his cottage in Goldhanger, where he dyed his hair black, and that she saw his mother's bicycle there. This was significant because the prosecution later alleged he had used the bicycle to cycle between his cottage and the farmhouse on the night of the murders.

She told police Bamber had telephoned her on at 9.50pm on 6 August to say he had been thinking about the crime all day, was pissed off, and that it was "tonight or never." A few hours later, between 3.00–3.30am, she said he phoned her again to say: "Everything is going well. Something is wrong at the farm. I haven't had any sleep all night … bye honey and I love you lots". Her flatmates' evidence suggested that call came through closer to 3.00am.

He called her later during the morning of 7 August 1985 to tell her that Sheila had gone mad and that a police car was coming to pick her up and bring her to the farmhouse. When she arrived there, she said he pulled her to one side and said: "I should have been an actor!".

Later that evening she asked whether he had done it. He said no, but that a friend of his had, whom he named; the man was a plumber the family had used in the past. He said he had told this friend how he could enter and leave the farmhouse undetected, and that one of his instructions had been for the friend to telephone him from the farm on one of the phones in the house that had a memory redial facility, so that if the police checked it, it would give him an alibi. Everything had gone as planned, he said, except that Nevill had put up a fight, and the friend had become angry and shot him seven times.
 
He had told Sheila to lie down and shoot herself last, Bamber said. He then placed the Bible on her chest so she appeared to have killed herself in a religious frenzy. The children were shot in their sleep, he said. Mugford said Bamber claimed to have paid the friend £2,000.

Seems extremely plausible to me especially since Julie didn't know much of this for fact anyway.  There is far too much factual detail in this for it to be made up.

Jeremy took the cowards way out and got some mug to do the dirty work for him.

Maybe it sounds plausible, but I can´t help thinking that it seems strange that he would let a girl in on all this. A girl he wasn´t particularly in love with. Doesn´t quite add up for me.

This here rings a little odd too:


"She told police Bamber had telephoned her on at 9.50pm on 6 August to say he had been thinking about the crime all day, was pissed off, and that it was "tonight or never."

And later she talks about that this alleged hit-man did it. So are we to believe that the hit-man was just sitting around for a call from Bamber, ready to go into a killing frenzy any day, any minute? For 2000 £ (400 for each killing...)?

That is hard for me to wrap my mind around.

[andrea]

Imagine that you had just murdered 5 people. Could you compose yourself.
With the best will in the world the addrenalin would be flowing.

i agree clifford.


Also if he was the murderer, why didnt he just carry out the killings, go home and let someone else find the carnage the following morning.

[Kaldin]

Maybe it sounds plausible, but I can´t help thinking that it seems strange that he would let a girl in on all this. A girl he wasn´t particularly in love with. Doesn´t quite add up for me.

This here rings a little odd too:


"She told police Bamber had telephoned her on at 9.50pm on 6 August to say he had been thinking about the crime all day, was pissed off, and that it was "tonight or never."

And later she talks about that this alleged hit-man did it. So are we to believe that the hit-man was just sitting around for a call from Bamber, ready to go into a killing frenzy any day, any minute? For 2000 £ (400 for each killing...)?

That is hard for me to wrap my mind around.
[/quote]

I know exactly what you mean. The way Julie phrased what he said makes it sound as if he only just decided that day to do the crime.

[VORTEX]

...Boutflour gained as well. In fact the way by  his own admittance wasted the money anyway. Boutflour had as much to gain as Jeremy. Why did he go to all the trouble to implicate Jeremy. He had a vested interest. Yes Jeremy was gobby, which led to his downfall. Dont him make a murderer though. To my mind the family are a dodgy bunch. Can,t remember them crying to much. The money saved them from the S***. Remember there were more than five who would have enjoyed Jeremy taking the wrap. I still think that Sheila did,nt do it.

I'm unconvinced by Boutflour's claim that he wasted the inheritance. If he had done so, the family would not now still be running a holiday home business and they would not still own a farm.

+1 Keira! I'd be saying I'd wasted it all / spent it if things were looking like they were about to take a turn for the worse and there is a possibility of having to give some of it back. Relatives are more concerned than you think about what has been going on with the case in the last couple of years - the Eaton's are selling up as we speak and moving to the Isle of Mann. Their farm at Wix is on the market right now.

Vortex...........when you say the Eatons are selling up,do you actually mean Ann and Peter are leaving whf,or are you just refering to The Baltflours farm at Wix? I know that RB died last year but am surprised that DB hasnt taken over running it.

Lady C .... The Boutflours farm at Wix is currently for sale (at least it was about 6 weeks ago) and I heard they were moving to the Isle of Man. Makes me think the pressure is rising and what better place to go than the UK home of "funny money" the Isle of Man. Hartley will probably be able to tell you more being a relative or close family friend 

[andrea]

hmmm tell me more vortex 

[clifford]

I did,nt know that. Hartley please explain.

[sandy]

Imagine that you had just murdered 5 people. Could you compose yourself.
With the best will in the world the addrenalin would be flowing.

Didn't Julie Mugford state in evidence that when Jeremy telephoned her BEFORE phoning the police, he likened his efforts to that of a great actor.

[chochokeira]

Also if Jeremy had run or cycled back to Goldhanger he must of been sweaty.
No mention of this.

A world champion sprinter wouldn't have made it to Goldhanger in that time.

Running is out.

Biking is out.

That leaves only the car.

In a tiny little place where half the village would know he used his car at 3 amish.

[chochokeira]

Also if Jeremy had run or cycled back to Goldhanger he must of been sweaty.
No mention of this.

A world champion sprinter wouldn't have made it to Goldhanger in that time.

Running is out.

Biking is out.

That leaves only the car.

In a tiny little place where half the village would know he used his car at 3 amish.

Yet no one heard anything...

[chelmsey]

That is really interesting! The Baltflours were so insistent on keeping Gran Speakmans estate going down the generations and now they are selling up? Its very possible that they have been told that JB stands a good chance of being released,as they would be kept informed of all developments.I also find it interesting that Pamela Baltflour has not been so vocal regarding Jeremys alleged guilt.I heard somewhere that this was because she understood how very ill Sheila was.Maybe deep down,she believes Sheila could very well have been responsible for the murders?

[simong]

Also if Jeremy had run or cycled back to Goldhanger he must of been sweaty.
No mention of this.

A world champion sprinter wouldn't have made it to Goldhanger in that time.

Running is out.

Biking is out.

That leaves only the car.

In a tiny little place where half the village would know he used his car at 3 amish.

I would argue against that. Until i actually drove over there myself, i never realised how secluded it is. It really is a place that time has forgotten. I think you could easily drive from WHF to Goldhanger with nobody seeing or bothering to hear you in the early hours of the morning. I did the journey at 8.30pm and only saw two cars either way!

[sandy]

Also if Jeremy had run or cycled back to Goldhanger he must of been sweaty.
No mention of this.

A world champion sprinter wouldn't have made it to Goldhanger in that time.

Running is out.

Biking is out.

That leaves only the car.

In a tiny little place where half the village would know he used his car at 3 amish.

How would that be exactly?  Don't people sleep at night?

People don't see things at the best of times, never mind 3am at night!