Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?

[chochokeira]

He was not the only one to gain. Boutflour gained as well. In fact the way by  his own admittance wasted the money anyway.
Boutflour had as much to gain as Jeremy. Why did he go to all the trouble to implicate Jeremy. He had a vested interest. Yes Jeremy was gobby, which led to his downfall. Dont him make a murderer though.
To my mind the family are a dodgy bunch. Can,t remember them crying to much. The money saved them from the S***. Remember there were more than five who would have enjoyed Jeremy taking the wrap. I still think that Sheila did,nt do it.

Well said, Clifford! +1

[chelmsey]

So how does one explain the complete absence of gun oil or discharge residue on her nightdress if she fired 25 rounds from a rifle at short range. 

Also the fact that there was no residue on her palms and fingers even after she had loaded the gun.

I put it to you that that is simply impossible!  Like Clifford I don't believe she fired any gun that night.

I can't explain that. I was talking about her state of mind really.

Yes I understand that Kaldin and for what its worth I agree with you.  The point is though that the forensics do not support the contention that Shelia pulled the trigger that night.


I think that if anyone has a case to answer it is Jeremy. His conduct following the murders was atrocious.  What on earth possessed him to try to sell nude pictures of his sister?

I agree wholeheartedly with you on this.The lack of gun residue on Sheila is odd if we are to believe that she was the killer.But you say that JB has a case to answer.Why do you say this? Please could you point me towards the forenic evidence that the police have with regards to JB? I would be interested to read that.

[chochokeira]

It appears that the Boutflour and Eaton families now own all but a few of the Bamber family assets yet jurors at Jeremy's trial were informed that Robert Boutflour would not inherit anything following the deaths. He would, it was therefore believed, not have any financial incentive for the evidence he was to provide in his testimony.

The jury had no knowledge of who would therefore benefit financially from Jeremy's conviction. Robert Boutflour, his son David and his daughter Ann Eaton frequently visited the police and accompanied them to White House Farm.

It was argued that Sheila would have been unable to fire and reload the rifle. Ann Eaton testified that Sheila had very little knowledge of guns; indeed, she stated that Sheila did not know one end of a gun from the other when in reality she had been taught how to fire guns, including shotguns, whilst on a shooting holiday in Scotland with David Boutflour. Photographs of Sheila holding guns were found.

Sheila had also participated in target shooting and so had used firearms on numerous occasions over a number of years. She had observed the Anschutz having been reloaded. Indeed, she had watched Bamber load the rifle on the eve of her death. Sheila had lived on a farm, where firearms were used on a regular basis, for much of her life. Under such circumstances, it is inconceivable to believe that she was unable to use a rifle at short range.

It does not follow however that Sheila could have been capable of killing members of her own family and especially so when in a confused state of mind.

She would have been capable of carrying out the killing whether she had extensive knowledge of guns or not in my opinion.

What confuses me is that a sensible businessman and magistrate like Nevill Bamber would ring Jeremy at 3am in the morning? His mentally disturbed daughter is going crazy. According to Mike in the other thread Jeremy tells police his father said 'She has got one of my guns'.

As a father of three myself, I would not ring my son at 3am from a static phone whilst someone was wandering around my house with a rifle losing the plot with my wife and two 6 year old grandchildren in the house.

I would love to know from any other members on the forum with children/ grandchildren if they would have done what Nevill did.

Yes, but you are not inclined to denial as the Bambers were. There seems to have been a pattern of denial and cover ups surrounding Sheila Caffell, doesn't there?

Her parents and friends all seem to have been so (over?) protective of this beautiful and fragile young woman that they seem to have been unwilling to recognise the full extent of her illness. To me, they seemed to want to keep the extent of Sheila's illness below the radar of the authorities: Social Services.

If it's true that June and Nevill had found a private fostering arrangement for Sheila's boys, wasn't this to keep the Social Services out of it: to keep Sheila's problems in the family?

Did this denial and desire to keep it all in the family lead Nevill to make a an error of judgement which proved to have catastrophic consequences?

One of Sheila's friends said he feared for his and Sheila's safety during one of her episodes when Sheila completely lost it. What did he do? Did he call her doctor, social services  or the police? No, he rang her chief protector: Nevill. Had Nevill encouraged Sheila's friend/s to cover up for Sheila and to contact Nevill when Sheila had episodes?

Perhaps Nevill and June - and others close to Sheila - were so in denial and so intent on covering up the extent of her illness that they may all have ignored behavioural warnings that she was getting worse and that she represented a serious danger to herself and to others - even, initially, on that final fateful night.

[Kaldin]

It appears that the Boutflour and Eaton families now own all but a few of the Bamber family assets yet jurors at Jeremy's trial were informed that Robert Boutflour would not inherit anything following the deaths. He would, it was therefore believed, not have any financial incentive for the evidence he was to provide in his testimony.

The jury had no knowledge of who would therefore benefit financially from Jeremy's conviction. Robert Boutflour, his son David and his daughter Ann Eaton frequently visited the police and accompanied them to White House Farm.

It was argued that Sheila would have been unable to fire and reload the rifle. Ann Eaton testified that Sheila had very little knowledge of guns; indeed, she stated that Sheila did not know one end of a gun from the other when in reality she had been taught how to fire guns, including shotguns, whilst on a shooting holiday in Scotland with David Boutflour. Photographs of Sheila holding guns were found.

Sheila had also participated in target shooting and so had used firearms on numerous occasions over a number of years. She had observed the Anschutz having been reloaded. Indeed, she had watched Bamber load the rifle on the eve of her death. Sheila had lived on a farm, where firearms were used on a regular basis, for much of her life. Under such circumstances, it is inconceivable to believe that she was unable to use a rifle at short range.

It does not follow however that Sheila could have been capable of killing members of her own family and especially so when in a confused state of mind.

She would have been capable of carrying out the killing whether she had extensive knowledge of guns or not in my opinion.

What confuses me is that a sensible businessman and magistrate like Nevill Bamber would ring Jeremy at 3am in the morning? His mentally disturbed daughter is going crazy. According to Mike in the other thread Jeremy tells police his father said 'She has got one of my guns'.

As a father of three myself, I would not ring my son at 3am from a static phone whilst someone was wandering around my house with a rifle losing the plot with my wife and two 6 year old grandchildren in the house.

I would love to know from any other members on the forum with children/ grandchildren if they would have done what Nevill did.

Yes, but you are not inclined to denial as the Bambers were. There seems to have been a pattern of denial and cover ups surrounding Sheila Caffell, doesn't there?

Her parents and friends all seem to have been so (over?) protective of this beautiful and fragile young woman that they seem to have been unwilling to recognise the full extent of her illness. To me, they seemed to want to keep the extent of Sheila's illness below the radar of the authorities: Social Services.

If it's true that June and Nevill had found a private fostering arrangement for Sheila's boys, wasn't this to keep the Social Services out of it: to keep Sheila's problems in the family?

Did this denial and desire to keep it all in the family lead Nevill to make a an error of judgement which proved to have catastrophic consequences?

One of Sheila's friends said he feared for his and Sheila's safety during one of her episodes when Sheila completely lost it. What did he do? Did he call her doctor, social services  or the police? No, he rang her chief protector: Nevill. Had Nevill encouraged Sheila's friend/s to cover up for Sheila and to contact Nevill when Sheila had episodes?

Perhaps Nevill and June - and others close to Sheila - were so in denial and so intent on covering up the extent of her illness that they may all have ignored behavioural warnings that she was getting worse and that she represented a serious danger to herself and to others - even, initially, on that final fateful night.

According to Freddie's statement, on the night in March when Sheila had a breakdown, he called Colin Caffells mother and she came round. Sheila kicked the lady out so Freddie called Sheila's doctor. The doctor arrived but Sheila wouldn't co-operate so the doctor left. Freddie then called another doctor, and that doctor came round and also left because he couldn't do anything - the doctor just wrote out a prescription. It was later on that night when Freddie called Nevill.

[Alias]

I agree that it is highly unlikely that Sheila fired 25 shots + reloaded the rifle without getting gun residue on her. On the other hand, I find it hard to trust the police-and forensic findings. This case was handled so sloppily, that it is very, very hard to form an opinion.
I don´t know a whole lot about this case - just learned about it and started looking into it about a week ago. So please bear with me!
Points so far that have set an alarm in my mind:
-It is stated clearly in police notes that one male and one female body was discovered downstairs - three additional bodies were discovered upstairs. Then later, one male body downstairs and four bodies upstairs. How does THAT happen? You don´t "see" a body that isn´t there!
-Looking at police photos of Sheila´s body, it is clear that the police moved her hand and the rifle around. Why?
-Police didn´t perform a thorough search of the farmhouse. They overlooked the silencer found by relatives a month or so after the killings. Or wasn´t it there in the first place? After it was in the police´s possession, it was handled very carelessly, yet it was used as a crucial piece of evidence against JB.
-What about Sheila´s heavily bloodied knickers found in a bucket in the kitchen - I believe also by relatives, not the police? Sheila wasn´t wearing knickers when she died, but she had a menstrual tampon inserted. The police didn´t gather much evidence from the house, did they? And as far as I know, they even destroyed evidence a few days after the murders (or murders/suicide, as they thought at the time. Why did they do that?
-How could Jeremy (or an accomplice or a hitman - perhaps Jeremy wasn´t there at all, but had hired a person to do it) - how could SOMEONE shoot Sheila in what must have been a very awkward position, both for Sheila and for the shooter?
-Why are so many photographs and a huge amount of case documents being withheld to this date?

[Alex]

So how does one explain the complete absence of gun oil or discharge residue on her nightdress if she fired 25 rounds from a rifle at short range. 

Also the fact that there was no residue on her palms and fingers even after she had loaded the gun.

I put it to you that that is simply impossible!  Like Clifford I don't believe she fired any gun that night.

I can't explain that. I was talking about her state of mind really.

Yes I understand that Kaldin and for what its worth I agree with you.  The point is though that the forensics do not support the contention that Shelia pulled the trigger that night.


I think that if anyone has a case to answer it is Jeremy. His conduct following the murders was atrocious.  What on earth possessed him to try to sell nude pictures of his sister?

Sandy, that's a good question - although it is not known that any such pictures existed.  It was Bret Collins who instigated that, although Jeremy Bamber clearly went along with it.

Like Chochokeira I don't understand your statement that Jeremy has a case to answer - I can't relate it what you just said about Sheila.  Do you mean that you think that Sheila's behaviour was understandable but that Jeremy's wasn't?  Or are you referring to GSR evidence?

[Kaldin]

So how does one explain the complete absence of gun oil or discharge residue on her nightdress if she fired 25 rounds from a rifle at short range. 

Also the fact that there was no residue on her palms and fingers even after she had loaded the gun.

I put it to you that that is simply impossible!  Like Clifford I don't believe she fired any gun that night.

I can't explain that. I was talking about her state of mind really.

Yes I understand that Kaldin and for what its worth I agree with you.  The point is though that the forensics do not support the contention that Shelia pulled the trigger that night.


I think that if anyone has a case to answer it is Jeremy. His conduct following the murders was atrocious.  What on earth possessed him to try to sell nude pictures of his sister?

If Jeremy did that, of course he has a case to answer - morally. It doesn't make him a murderer - the other evidence did that I guess.

I think a lot of people involved have a case to answer - morally. That includes relatives who coudn't wait to get their hands on the money, and Julie Mugford who sold her story and witheld information from the police for a whole month.

[clifford]

The lady in Scotland did not kill herself. It seens it was enough for her to know that nobody else was going to have her children.
She was not as far as I am aware mentally disturbed.
I ask again was Sheilas mental condition common knowledge in the commumity. Perhaps I should explain why I would like to know this.
As you all must know by now I do not think that Sheila murdered her family, nor am I convinced Jeremy did.
If certain people knew Sheila was vunerable it would be beyond the realms of reality to do the murders, and make it look like she had done it.
When I say people I mean family, and wronged fathers.

[Kaldin]

The lady in Scotland did not kill herself. It seens it was enough for her to know that nobody else was going to have her children.
She was not as far as I am aware mentally disturbed.
I ask again was Sheilas mental condition common knowledge in the commumity. Perhaps I should explain why I would like to know this.
As you all must know by now I do not think that Sheila murdered her family, nor am I convinced Jeremy did.
If certain people knew Sheila was vunerable it would be beyond the realms of reality to do the murders, and make it look like she had done it.
When I say people I mean family, and wronged fathers.

Any particular wronged father?

[clifford]

Kaldin I was refering to the father who,s son Ralph sent to prison.
Been trying to get info on this suject for ages.
Perhaps Mike knows.
The reason I want to go down this route is because I do not think that Sheila did it, and have reservations as to wether Jeremy did.

[Kaldin]

Kaldin I was refering to the father who,s son Ralph sent to prison.
Been trying to get info on this suject for ages.
Perhaps Mike knows.
The reason I want to go down this route is because I do not think that Sheila did it, and have reservations as to wether Jeremy did.

Oh right! Does anyone actually know anything about that?

[sandy]

The lady in Scotland did not kill herself. It seens it was enough for her to know that nobody else was going to have her children.
She was not as far as I am aware mentally disturbed.
I ask again was Sheilas mental condition common knowledge in the commumity. Perhaps I should explain why I would like to know this.
As you all must know by now I do not think that Sheila murdered her family, nor am I convinced Jeremy did.
If certain people knew Sheila was vunerable it would be beyond the realms of reality to do the murders, and make it look like she had done it.
When I say people I mean family, and wronged fathers.

The woman in Edinburgh does have a history of mental illness Clifford.  Donald Findlay QC, defending, said a report into his client's mental state identified she was suffering narcissistic, paranoid and hysterical personality disorders.

I would agree with you about Jeremy if there hadn't been an attempt to incriminate Sheila in the murders.  The very fact that this occurred points the finger firmly towards Jeremy and that is why 10 out of the 12 jurors saw fit to convict him of the murders irrespective of whether or not he pulled the trigger at least 26 times according to the wounds.

[sandy]

 Please could you point me towards the forenic evidence that the police have with regards to JB? I would be interested to read that.

It wasn't the forensics that did it in for Jeremy but circumstantial evidence.  Why did the entire family turn on Jeremy in the end including his girlfriend?

It's a true saying that goes, "There is no smoke without fire!".

[Kaldin]

There was loads of forensive evidence. There was the blood in the silencer for a start.

Mind you, if it hadn't been for the alleged phone call to Jeremy from Nevill, that forensic evidence could have applied to anyone else except Sheila, and not necessarily just to Jeremy.

[sandy]

There was loads of forensive evidence. There was the blood in the silencer for a start.

Mind you, if it hadn't been for the alleged phone call to Jeremy from Nevill, that forensic evidence could have applied to anyone else except Sheila, and not necessarily just to Jeremy.

I don't believe there is any forensic evidence which puts Jeremy at the scene but maybe you can prove me wrong.

The blood on the silencer does not relate to Jeremy as far as I understand Kaldin.