Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?

[clifford]

My patter must have been c***. I never bedded anything,unless you say sweaty, never mind I remained pure. [nearly]. If you ignore, said enough. Where were we can we all agree that the poor girl did NOT murder her boys. I do feel pationate about this,because I feel I must fight her corner.
There is nothing in her history to say she would harm her children, and I think it terrible to say otherwise.

[Kaldin]

My patter must have been c***. I never bedded anything,unless you say sweaty, never mind I remained pure. [nearly]. If you ignore, said enough. Where were we can we all agree that the poor girl did NOT murder her boys. I do feel pationate about this,because I feel I must fight her corner.
There is nothing in her history to say she would harm her children, and I think it terrible to say otherwise.

I don't rule it out. I'm sure she wouldn't do anything to hurt them but she might not have thought she was hurting them - she might have thought she was saving them from something.

[clifford]

kalvin, I really respect your input, but find it hard to understand your last comment

[Kaldin]

Jeremy gave evidence that Sheila had 'flipped' as she was prone to doing.

Sheila had been in an unsuccessful marriage. When the marriage broke down she became depressed and her state of mind deteriorated further, resulting in her becoming a sufferer of paranoid schizophrenia. On two occasions she had had been admitted to a hospital because of her condition. Indeed just days before the shootings she had been discharged from a hospital. Psychiatric reports noted that her illness was centred on her children whom she referred to, according to one report, as "the Devil's children". Sheila's psychiatrist, Dr Ferguson, wrote in his report that Sheila had also expressed suicidal ideation. Before the shootings, she had not been taking her prescribed medication that was used to control her state of mind.

According to Bamber, a discussion had taken place on the eve of the deaths, during which it was suggested that Sheila's two twin sons should be fostered on a part time basis due to her illness, or that another alternative for their care should be considered. Such discussions could have sparked a schizophrenic episode, creating the belief in her mind that killing her children, her parents and then herself, was the most appropriate means by which the issue could be resolved.

I find this hard to believe.  Ralph and June would have cared for the twins should it have become necessary.  Fostering out of the family would have been a non starter. In any event, the twins were normally looked after by their father, Colin Caffell.

One must remember that both Sheila and Jeremy were adopted since Ralph Nevill Bamber and his wife June could not have children.

Just to be accurate, I think Sheila had been in hospital in March 1985, so it wasn't a few days before the murders - it was four months or so.

She was given injections of haliperidol to control the schizophrenia so it wasn't a question of her failing to take her medication. However, her dose had been reduced prior to the murders. I'm not aware if she was supposed to be taking any other medication.

Re Nevill and June taking care of the children, I'm not convinced that Colin Caffell would have agreed to that as he wasn't keen on June's religious ideas. He might have agreed to a temporary fostering situation though. Perhaps the Bambers were thinking along those lines.

[Kaldin]

kalvin, I really respect your input, but find it hard to understand your last comment

I mean she might have thought the world was evil and that killing the boys would save them from that. I'm not an expert on psychosis, but I don't think people who have it are in touch with reality.

[lebaleb]

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2002/2912.htm I suggest you read paragraph 84 and also Freddie Emami's statement before you decide what Shiela was capable of.

[sandy]

If she was such a danger she wouldn't have been allowed near the boys.  I think Clifford is onto something here when he says he doesn't believe that she would want to hurt them.

However, there are many cases of mothers murdering their children for all sorts of reasons. Just a few weeks ago a woman pleaded guilty to murdering her three children in Edinburgh.

She to feared that her children would be taken away.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-12663965

It is more common than you think.

[Kaldin]

If she was such a danger she wouldn't have been allowed near the boys.  I think Clifford is onto something here when he says he doesn't believe that she would want to hurt them.

However, there are many cases of mothers murdering their children for all sorts of reasons. Just a few weeks ago a woman pleaded guilty to murdering her three children in Edinburgh.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-12663965

It is more common than you think.

Perhaps nobody did think she was a danger to them because she cared for them. Like I said, she may not have wanted to intentionally hurt them. There are loads of cases where people who are a danger to others are not prevented from hurting them.

[sandy]

88.  When told on 8 August 1985 that Sheila Caffell had killed her parents and children and then herself, Dr Ferguson said this did not fit "his concept" of his patient. He did not feel she was someone who would actually be violent to her children or towards her father, although she was a highly disturbed woman and had expressed disturbed feelings towards her mother.

89.  In cross-examination Dr Ferguson agreed that Mrs Caffell's condition was well known to her family. There had never been manifestations of violence either when her illness was being managed or when in a highly disturbed state in hospital. In the context of what was alleged to have occurred Dr Ferguson found it possible to conceive of Sheila Caffell wanting to harm her mother or herself but "difficult to conceptualise her harming her children or her father". He had always felt Sheila loved and cared for her children and saw her father as a very secure, caring and strong support in her life.

[andrea]

My patter must have been c***. I never bedded anything,unless you say sweaty, never mind I remained pure. [nearly]. If you ignore, said enough. Where were we can we all agree that the poor girl did NOT murder her boys. I do feel pationate about this,because I feel I must fight her corner.
There is nothing in her history to say she would harm her children, and I think it terrible to say otherwise.

I don't rule it out. I'm sure she wouldn't do anything to hurt them but she might not have thought she was hurting them - she might have thought she was saving them from something.

i agree kaldin if she was having a psychotic episode, in her mind she was doing for the best, she didnt do it out of hate or not loving the twins.Anyway this has been discussed a million times already 

[Kaldin]

My patter must have been c***. I never bedded anything,unless you say sweaty, never mind I remained pure. [nearly]. If you ignore, said enough. Where were we can we all agree that the poor girl did NOT murder her boys. I do feel pationate about this,because I feel I must fight her corner.
There is nothing in her history to say she would harm her children, and I think it terrible to say otherwise.

I don't rule it out. I'm sure she wouldn't do anything to hurt them but she might not have thought she was hurting them - she might have thought she was saving them from something.

i agree kaldin if she was having a psychotic episode, in her mind she was doing for the best, she didnt do it out of hate or not loving the twins.Anyway this has been discussed a million times already 

Yes it has. I'm not saying she did kill them, just that I think she could have been capable of doing so for her own reasons.

[sandy]

So how does one explain the complete absence of gun oil or discharge residue on her nightdress if she fired 25 rounds from a rifle at short range. 

Also the fact that there was no residue on her palms and fingers even after she had loaded the gun.

I put it to you that that is simply impossible!  Like Clifford I don't believe she fired any gun that night.

[andrea]

yep, again kaldin i agree, some people dont understand psychosis and the effect it has on the mind.I do because ive been there (im ok now).

if sheila did kill the twins she did it because she loved them, and couldnt bear the thought of having them taken away, i know that statement wont make sense to some 

[Kaldin]

So how does one explain the complete absence of gun oil or discharge residue on her nightdress if she fired 25 rounds from a rifle at short range. 

Also the fact that there was no residue on her palms and fingers even after she had loaded the gun.

I put it to you that that is simply impossible!  Like Clifford I don't believe she fired any gun that night.

I can't explain that. I was talking about her state of mind really.

[sandy]

So how does one explain the complete absence of gun oil or discharge residue on her nightdress if she fired 25 rounds from a rifle at short range. 

Also the fact that there was no residue on her palms and fingers even after she had loaded the gun.

I put it to you that that is simply impossible!  Like Clifford I don't believe she fired any gun that night.

I can't explain that. I was talking about her state of mind really.

Yes I understand that Kaldin and for what its worth I agree with you.  The point is though that the forensics do not support the contention that Shelia pulled the trigger that night.


I think that if anyone has a case to answer it is Jeremy. His conduct following the murders was atrocious.  What on earth possessed him to try to sell nude pictures of his sister?