Author Topic: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children  (Read 21278 times)

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Offline killingeve

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #120 on: October 25, 2013, 10:02:PM »
Take a look at Ceausescu's children.  I do agree that if children aren't stimulated they may fall behind in education.  Not sure if that is the right thing to say. 

June and Nevilles children were bright and I am sure they loved them both......I'm not sure whether none stimulation can result in schizophrenia or even psychopathy.  :-\

Patti also we know JB eventually passed 7 or 8 'O' levels at the local college but what about SC? 

Offline Patti

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #121 on: October 25, 2013, 10:09:PM »
Patti also we know JB eventually passed 7 or 8 'O' levels at the local college but what about SC?

In that video where the mother turned away from her baby, the baby appeared to get upset by it.  But, when the mother turned and faced the baby the baby became happy again. 

So if you take June and her depression which lasted for a short period of time throughout Sheila's childhood, you will be aware that upon her return she became her normal self again....So is it not fair to say then, that June turned went away for a while and then came back making Sheila happy again???????:) :) :) :) :)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 10:23:PM by Patti »

Offline killingeve

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #122 on: October 25, 2013, 10:25:PM »
In that video where the mother turned away from her baby, the baby appeared to get upset by it.  But, when the mother turned and faced the baby the baby became happy again. 

So if you take June and her depression which lasted for a short period of time throughout Sheila's childhood, you will be aware that upon her return she became her normal self again....So is it not fair to say then, that June turned went away for a while and then came back?????????  :) :) :) :) :)

Patti we're talking a few seconds in the 'still face' experiment not weeks or months.  How do any of us know what went on at WHF in the lead up to June's depression and admittance to St Andrews. We're not talking baby blues here where a new mother toodles off to her gp for some happy pills.  We're talking serious mental illness requiring in-patient psychiatric treatment and ect as a direct result of her decision to adopt SC :o  I think the failure to recognise this as a cornerstone of the case is a serious failing.   

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #123 on: October 26, 2013, 06:44:AM »
Patti we're talking a few seconds in the 'still face' experiment not weeks or months.  How do any of us know what went on at WHF in the lead up to June's depression and admittance to St Andrews. We're not talking baby blues here where a new mother toodles off to her gp for some happy pills.  We're talking serious mental illness requiring in-patient psychiatric treatment and ect as a direct result of her decision to adopt SC :o  I think the failure to recognise this as a cornerstone of the case is a serious failing.
The still face experiment is shocking and I really don't think it should be allowed however much information it may impart to psychologists. If we go along with your thesis that June was this still faced woman who by default failed to give enough attention to Sheila even when she must have seen what the resulting harm was,or that replacement caregivers were also a shower and froze Sheila out,and even Nevill was too tired after a hard day's work on the Farm to cuddle,coo,pick her up or play with her toes then we have a damaged Sheila suffering from an attachment disorder,and for the purposes of this post let us accept all of this for one moment.

The attachment disorder can manifest itself in several ways. Violent parenting can result in extremis in the Mary Bell scenario,where Mary gets her own back on two little boys as she acts out the violent abuse her mother gave her whilst witnessing her prostitute mother deliberately harming her and being subjected to violent sexual acts by her male clientele. Before we drift from the subject the main point is the child's brain has been damaged as if it had been involved in a car accident,though of course one cannot see the damage physically;however the child as it begins to grow and sense adults around it develops survival skills first at the expense of relationship skills,manifested in manipulation,control,aggression or withdrawal.

You will see that I just cannot reconcile the above characteristics with Sheila;rather I see her as vacuous as has been described many times on this forum,and living in a vacuum,in a world which she found difficult to relate to,but I find no evidence of her harming pets,bullying fellow pupils(if anything it was Sheila who was bullied),I don't see her as manipulative but struggling with her developing mental illness which must have hit her like a ton of bricks,yet again I don't see her complaining as she undergoes mood swings and side-effects in medication. It was the self-harm which was a symptom of her illness,and certainly not inflicting physical pain on others.

Of course Sheila had a serious mental illness(we don't know how serious June's was but  it seems she did not suffer from hallucinations and appeared to function in her milieu of charitable works and Church), could hardly get up out of bed in the morning and seemed to drift from one idea to another.However we may judge her for her vapid and aimless existence it's still a stretch for her to have finally given up on everything and everyone that last week over a remark about fostering or adoption around the dinner table which may or may not have taken place.

Whilst recognizing that every child is different I note other symptoms of attachment disorder:destruction which may undoubtedly have occurred with some of Colin's sculptures whilst they were living together,but then I also read that these children can be charming,generally when this person is interacting with people they rarely see(Jeremy writing letters from prison),controlling(Jeremy demanding money with menaces from June),stealing and lying(the Osea Road burglary),low impulse control(Jeremy kills five people within a short space of time because he hasn't thought through his actions and has no understanding of how his actions impact on others),no apparent remorse or conscience(the loss of five lives didn't bother Jeremy at all..when he looks you in the eye it's an indication that he's lying).

Nobody is denying that Sheila may well have suffered from attachment disorder,though it's hard to envisage how differently Jeremy was brought up than his sister,especially when daughters are usually the apple of their father's eye and are likely to be more reticent with sons in their early years. Both children were palmed off to multiple caregivers at an early age whereupon they were sent to public school for others to deal with(unlike Roderick Newall there was at least some time to bond during holidays),yet Jeremy had arrived into this emotionally-charged environment where all had the best of intentions to start with(remember Jeremy imitating Nevill with his food choice at breakfast),yet the individual just cannot maintain the facade of being someone else and the relationship breaks down. This is exactly what happened with Jeremy and Nevill.Parents expect change in their children(re:June's "Devil's Child remark to Sheila) yet this only puts further pressure on the child and the cycle of mistrust and in Sheila's case helplessness continues. However in my opinion Sheila had worked through her negativity with June after leaving St. Andrew's for the second time and had put her mother's former condemnations to one side. It was Jeremy who saw the years stretching out before him and realized that time was not on his side.


Offline Jane

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #124 on: October 26, 2013, 09:02:AM »
The still face experiment is shocking and I really don't think it should be allowed however much information it may impart to psychologists. If we go along with your thesis that June was this still faced woman who by default failed to give enough attention to Sheila even when she must have seen what the resulting harm was,or that replacement caregivers were also a shower and froze Sheila out,and even Nevill was too tired after a hard day's work on the Farm to cuddle,coo,pick her up or play with her toes then we have a damaged Sheila suffering from an attachment disorder,and for the purposes of this post let us accept all of this for one moment.

The attachment disorder can manifest itself in several ways. Violent parenting can result in extremis in the Mary Bell scenario,where Mary gets her own back on two little boys as she acts out the violent abuse her mother gave her whilst witnessing her prostitute mother deliberately harming her and being subjected to violent sexual acts by her male clientele. Before we drift from the subject the main point is the child's brain has been damaged as if it had been involved in a car accident,though of course one cannot see the damage physically;however the child as it begins to grow and sense adults around it develops survival skills first at the expense of relationship skills,manifested in manipulation,control,aggression or withdrawal.

You will see that I just cannot reconcile the above characteristics with Sheila;rather I see her as vacuous as has been described many times on this forum,and living in a vacuum,in a world which she found difficult to relate to,but I find no evidence of her harming pets,bullying fellow pupils(if anything it was Sheila who was bullied),I don't see her as manipulative but struggling with her developing mental illness which must have hit her like a ton of bricks,yet again I don't see her complaining as she undergoes mood swings and side-effects in medication. It was the self-harm which was a symptom of her illness,and certainly not inflicting physical pain on others.

Of course Sheila had a serious mental illness(we don't know how serious June's was but  it seems she did not suffer from hallucinations and appeared to function in her milieu of charitable works and Church), could hardly get up out of bed in the morning and seemed to drift from one idea to another.However we may judge her for her vapid and aimless existence it's still a stretch for her to have finally given up on everything and everyone that last week over a remark about fostering or adoption around the dinner table which may or may not have taken place.

Whilst recognizing that every child is different I note other symptoms of attachment disorder:destruction which may undoubtedly have occurred with some of Colin's sculptures whilst they were living together,but then I also read that these children can be charming,generally when this person is interacting with people they rarely see(Jeremy writing letters from prison),controlling(Jeremy demanding money with menaces from June),stealing and lying(the Osea Road burglary),low impulse control(Jeremy kills five people within a short space of time because he hasn't thought through his actions and has no understanding of how his actions impact on others),no apparent remorse or conscience(the loss of five lives didn't bother Jeremy at all..when he looks you in the eye it's an indication that he's lying).

Nobody is denying that Sheila may well have suffered from attachment disorder,though it's hard to envisage how differently Jeremy was brought up than his sister,especially when daughters are usually the apple of their father's eye and are likely to be more reticent with sons in their early years. Both children were palmed off to multiple caregivers at an early age whereupon they were sent to public school for others to deal with(unlike Roderick Newall there was at least some time to bond during holidays),yet Jeremy had arrived into this emotionally-charged environment where all had the best of intentions to start with(remember Jeremy imitating Nevill with his food choice at breakfast),yet the individual just cannot maintain the facade of being someone else and the relationship breaks down. This is exactly what happened with Jeremy and Nevill.Parents expect change in their children(re:June's "Devil's Child remark to Sheila) yet this only puts further pressure on the child and the cycle of mistrust and in Sheila's case helplessness continues. However in my opinion Sheila had worked through her negativity with June after leaving St. Andrew's for the second time and had put her mother's former condemnations to one side. It was Jeremy who saw the years stretching out before him and realized that time was not on his side.


Steve!!!!! A VERY warm welcome back. Believe it or not, you HAVE been sorely missed. Your maiden post is, as ever, excellently written but the content is all over the place.

You have obviously been trawling the internet for information which you have laid before us with what appears to be very little understanding of what it is about, ie when you speak of Sheila having "worked through her negativity with June" you seem NOT to take on board just HOW difficult to accomplish with any degree of success this would be. It isn't as simple as CHOOSING to do it and would have taken YEARS of counselling which we know that Sheila never had. You still show no understanding of the different upbringings Sheila and Jeremy experienced OR how their totally different genitics MAY have contributed to their reactions to it. You really seem to have been scraping the bottom of the barrel in order to attach to Jeremy those characteristics which are screamingly obvious in Sheila yet you strive to make excuses for her having them.

Offline lookout

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #125 on: October 26, 2013, 09:47:AM »
Good morning April,,,yes I see Steve was up before his breakfast this morning,,but good to see him. ;D

To put this complex subject simply,,is down to the word---Amygdala. ( worth reading about )
A part of the brain which I'd have said was already " damaged " in June with her anti-depressants and psychotherapy in her former years. As happened with Sheila during her relationship with June ( lack of experience in motherhood ),,then exacerbated by her own later imbibement of anti-psychotic drugs. All have an effect on the brain and not always positively.
The amygdala is responsible for all the emotions,and if there's damage to the left side,,there is impairment of its normal function,affected by separation,aggression,,fear.
A baby develops its fear response at about 2 weeks old,,and the senses of who is kind and who isn't,,all down to that part of the brain, the amygdala,,so it would be safe to say that very young babies do sense separation and are also sensitive towards handling by different persons.
Males are less affected by this sort of stress than females.

Offline maggie

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #126 on: October 26, 2013, 10:02:AM »
Hi Steve, good to see you back.
I agree with you that we have no idea whether June's illness caused any sort of neglect to Sheila. We simply dont know the facts. Dr Ferguson noted June's depression was caused by her adoption of Sheila but that was never explained more fully so any opinions formed from this sentence can only be assumptions imo.

I cannot see any evidence of psychopathy in what we know of Sheila.  There are mixed theories as to causes of psychopathy whether nature or nurture.  The difficulty is that abused children so often suffer their abuse, neglect from their genetic parent meaning it's very difficult to prove genetics are not involved. Where do genetics end and abuse, neglect begin in such a situation?
Why do some abused children have severely low emoting skills while others dont? Is a psychopath complete with nil emotions, dedicated manipulation, cruel, callous, exhibitionism, depraved sexual deviancy etc. etc. born or made? 
Sheila was diagnosed a Paranoid Schizophrenic with very different symptoms to psychopathy.  To be diagnosed with PS the patient needs to exhibit particular symptoms. Sheila very possibly began to develop her Psychotic symptoms sometime after puberty which was exhibited by her irresponsible and
chaotic behaviour, possible grudge bearing and dislike of a family member, often the mother.  I am not claiming that June Bamber was the perfect mother but then what mother is?  There are varying degrees of good, bad and indifferent but most mothers try to do their best imo.

There is no proof and I have never read that Jeremy Bamber ever demanded money with menaces from June. There is no sign of psychopathic behaviour in JBs history. He appears normal enough, the only rime ever recorded was burglary at the Osea Caravan site, he was in fact a shareholder at the time. This crime was not commited alone  but was a joint effort with that pillar of the community,  Julie Mugford.

Since being in prison Jeremy Bamber has been scrutinised by psychologists and psychiatrists at least 28 times, one test lasting 20 hours over 3 weeks.  No sign of psychopathy has ever been even hinted at, nor any other Personality Disorder. Psychopaths are by their very nature always deeply Narcissistic,  no sign of this has ever been detected.

So Steve, I agree with you about Sheila's lack of Psychopathy but disagree with you that JB's behaviour personalty testing etc in any way shows signs of Psychopathy imo.   ;D
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 10:20:AM by maggie »

Offline Jane

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #127 on: October 26, 2013, 10:05:AM »
Good morning April,,,yes I see Steve was up before his breakfast this morning,,but good to see him. ;D

To put this complex subject simply,,is down to the word---Amygdala. ( worth reading about )
A part of the brain which I'd have said was already " damaged " in June with her anti-depressants and psychotherapy in her former years. As happened with Sheila during her relationship with June ( lack of experience in motherhood ),,then exacerbated by her own later imbibement of anti-psychotic drugs. All have an effect on the brain and not always positively.
The amygdala is responsible for all the emotions,and if there's damage to the left side,,there is impairment of its normal function,affected by separation,aggression,,fear.
A baby develops its fear response at about 2 weeks old,,and the senses of who is kind and who isn't,,all down to that part of the brain, the amygdala,,so it would be safe to say that very young babies do sense separation and are also sensitive towards handling by different persons.
Males are less affected by this sort of stress than females.



Lookout, thankyou SO much for that. It brings back the counselling related psychology that I did prior to the degree. Not of course, that we counselled tiny babies, just the damaged adults that some of those babies grew up to be. The amygdala was central to our understanding.

Offline susan

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #128 on: October 26, 2013, 10:11:AM »
april/lookout  what clever ladies you both are and a tremendous asset to this forum ;D ;D ;D

Offline lookout

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #129 on: October 26, 2013, 10:15:AM »
april/lookout  what clever ladies you both are and a tremendous asset to this forum ;D ;D ;D






Oh Susan------stoppit. ;D ;D But thankyou. :-*

Offline susan

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #130 on: October 26, 2013, 10:19:AM »
lookout   :) ;) :D :) ;) :D :) ;) :D

Offline Jane

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #131 on: October 26, 2013, 10:52:AM »
april/lookout  what clever ladies you both are and a tremendous asset to this forum ;D ;D ;D




Susan, you really are a sweetie. Thankyou SO much :-* :-* :-*
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 10:53:AM by April »

Offline Patti

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #132 on: October 26, 2013, 12:02:PM »
Hi Steve, good to see you back.
I agree with you that we have no idea whether June's illness caused any sort of neglect to Sheila. We simply dont know the facts. Dr Ferguson noted June's depression was caused by her adoption of Sheila but that was never explained more fully so any opinions formed from this sentence can only be assumptions imo.

I cannot see any evidence of psychopathy in what we know of Sheila.  There are mixed theories as to causes of psychopathy whether nature or nurture.  The difficulty is that abused children so often suffer their abuse, neglect from their genetic parent meaning it's very difficult to prove genetics are not involved. Where do genetics end and abuse, neglect begin in such a situation?
Why do some abused children have severely low emoting skills while others dont? Is a psychopath complete with nil emotions, dedicated manipulation, cruel, callous, exhibitionism, depraved sexual deviancy etc. etc. born or made? 
Sheila was diagnosed a Paranoid Schizophrenic with very different symptoms to psychopathy.  To be diagnosed with PS the patient needs to exhibit particular symptoms. Sheila very possibly began to develop her Psychotic symptoms sometime after puberty which was exhibited by her irresponsible and
chaotic behaviour, possible grudge bearing and dislike of a family member, often the mother.  I am not claiming that June Bamber was the perfect mother but then what mother is?  There are varying degrees of good, bad and indifferent but most mothers try to do their best imo.

There is no proof and I have never read that Jeremy Bamber ever demanded money with menaces from June. There is no sign of psychopathic behaviour in JBs history. He appears normal enough, the only rime ever recorded was burglary at the Osea Caravan site, he was in fact a shareholder at the time. This crime was not commited alone  but was a joint effort with that pillar of the community,  Julie Mugford.

Since being in prison Jeremy Bamber has been scrutinised by psychologists and psychiatrists at least 28 times, one test lasting 20 hours over 3 weeks.  No sign of psychopathy has ever been even hinted at, nor any other Personality Disorder. Psychopaths are by their very nature always deeply Narcissistic,  no sign of this has ever been detected.

So Steve, I agree with you about Sheila's lack of Psychopathy but disagree with you that JB's behaviour personalty testing etc in any way shows signs of Psychopathy imo.   ;D

Brilliant post Maggie.  All I can add is that June had a blip during a time when she had adopted Sheila. June recovered from that blip and the family went back to normality. 

We all know that Sheila had issues with her mother and that they didn't get on, but June cared for her even when she left home. June gave her and Colin food, money, bought them a flat, bought Colin a car...To me that shows kindness.  Now whether June was seen to be controlling of Sheila is possible, but in my opinion she loved both her children.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline susan

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #133 on: October 26, 2013, 12:15:PM »
Hi Patti  I agree with you June was the best Mother that she knew how to be and as for controlling Sheila maybe she thought Sheila needed looking out for I for one can look back at myself as a Mother and see many mistakes I made but it was never out of badness but inexperience and if I could turn the clock back I would approach things differently and look at my own behaviour as opposed to my son's but he has turned out pretty good but I take no credit for that he achieved that himself.

Offline Patti

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Re: Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children
« Reply #134 on: October 26, 2013, 12:16:PM »
Patti we're talking a few seconds in the 'still face' experiment not weeks or months.  How do any of us know what went on at WHF in the lead up to June's depression and admittance to St Andrews. We're not talking baby blues here where a new mother toodles off to her gp for some happy pills.  We're talking serious mental illness requiring in-patient psychiatric treatment and ect as a direct result of her decision to adopt SC :o  I think the failure to recognise this as a cornerstone of the case is a serious failing.

Hi NN :)

I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that Sheila suffered a ditachment order through June being admitted to hospital or this caused her to suffer from scizhophrenia?  Sheila was 2 years old when June was admitted to St Andrews, but Sheila didn't live with her mother when she was admitted in 1982...June had a lot to cope with from 1979 so with that in mind there is no wonder that she suffered some sort of depression...In 1982 you can't attach this being anything to do with Sheila except that she may have been very concerned about her and her grandchildren after the spilt and divorce from Colin.  :) :) :) :) :)

1949 June and Nevill marry
1957 Sheila was born 18th July and adopted.  In October of the same year the Bamber's take her home.
1959 June is admitted to St Andrews (not sure about this)
1961 Jeremy was born and  adopted
1974 Aged 17 Sheila leaves home
1977 Sheila marries Colin
1979 The twins were born
1979 Jeremy goes to Australia for a year
1979 Sheila and Colin split up
1980 Jeremy returns home from Australia
1980 Jeremy aged 19 leaves home
1981 Jeremy goes to New Zealand and Australia for 3 months
1981 Nevill's mother dies
1982 Sheila registers with Dr Angeloglou
1982 Sheila and Colin divorce
1982 Sheila Registered at Dr Angleloglou's surgery
1982 November was her first vist to see Dr Angleoglou
1982 June is admitted to St Andrew's