Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children

[Steve_uk]

Hi Steve, good to see you back.
I agree with you that we have no idea whether June's illness caused any sort of neglect to Sheila. We simply dont know the facts. Dr Ferguson noted June's depression was caused by her adoption of Sheila but that was never explained more fully so any opinions formed from this sentence can only be assumptions imo.

I cannot see any evidence of psychopathy in what we know of Sheila.  There are mixed theories as to causes of psychopathy whether nature or nurture.  The difficulty is that abused children so often suffer their abuse, neglect from their genetic parent meaning it's very difficult to prove genetics are not involved. Where do genetics end and abuse, neglect begin in such a situation?
Why do some abused children have severely low emoting skills while others dont? Is a psychopath complete with nil emotions, dedicated manipulation, cruel, callous, exhibitionism, depraved sexual deviancy etc. etc. born or made? 
Sheila was diagnosed a Paranoid Schizophrenic with very different symptoms to psychopathy.  To be diagnosed with PS the patient needs to exhibit particular symptoms. Sheila very possibly began to develop her Psychotic symptoms sometime after puberty which was exhibited by her irresponsible and
chaotic behaviour, possible grudge bearing and dislike of a family member, often the mother.  I am not claiming that June Bamber was the perfect mother but then what mother is?  There are varying degrees of good, bad and indifferent but most mothers try to do their best imo.

There is no proof and I have never read that Jeremy Bamber ever demanded money with menaces from June. There is no sign of psychopathic behaviour in JBs history. He appears normal enough, the only rime ever recorded was burglary at the Osea Caravan site, he was in fact a shareholder at the time. This crime was not commited alone  but was a joint effort with that pillar of the community,  Julie Mugford.

Since being in prison Jeremy Bamber has been scrutinised by psychologists and psychiatrists at least 28 times, one test lasting 20 hours over 3 weeks.  No sign of psychopathy has ever been even hinted at, nor any other Personality Disorder. Psychopaths are by their very nature always deeply Narcissistic,  no sign of this has ever been detected.

So Steve, I agree with you about Sheila's lack of Psychopathy but disagree with you that JB's behaviour personalty testing etc in any way shows signs of Psychopathy imo.   

It might help if Jeremy acceded to the request by psychiatrists for a brain scan. Would this pick up on a damaged amygdala as narrated in lookout's post?http://www.livescience.com/13083-criminals-brain-neuroscience-ethics.html

[killingeve]

..and Jeremy was using cannabis heavily in the run-up to the murders. It's an explanation for the change in character of this individual which the Jeremy supporters find hard to contemplate.

Quick send out the Ol Bill to pick up Sir Paul 

[Steve_uk]

Patti also we know JB eventually passed 7 or 8 'O' levels at the local college but what about SC?

Yes "eventually",and one does not want to belittle anyone's educational achievement whether they were successful or not in an era where there was an elite education for the few but fortunately enough jobs to go round for those with low skills.Sheila fell into the latter category having gained no academic qualifications(Claire Powell tells us). She started a typing course in London which she didn't complete,worked in a hairdressing salon for a time before moving into less desirable jobs such as cleaning and working in a seedy catering establishment as a waitress dressed in one of those sexually-provocative outfits which aroused frustrated ex-public schoolboys turned civil servants pathetically going for a midday turn on and no doubt tipping generously in the process.

[killingeve]

It might help if Jeremy acceded to the request by psychiatrists for a brain scan. Would this pick up on a damaged amygdala as narrated in lookout's post?http://www.livescience.com/13083-criminals-brain-neuroscience-ethics.html

Errr why might JB have a damaged amygdala?

I'm sure JB would welcome any tests as he has nothing to hide.

[killingeve]

Yes "eventually",and one does not want to belittle anyone's educational achievement whether they were successful or not in an era where there was an elite education for the few but fortunately enough jobs to go round for those with low skills.Sheila fell into the latter category having gained no academic qualifications(Claire Powell tells us). She started a typing course in London which she didn't complete,worked in a hairdressing salon for a time before moving into less desirable jobs such as cleaning and working in a seedy catering establishment as a waitress dressed in one of those sexually-provocative outfits which aroused frustrated ex-public schoolboys turned civil servants pathetically going for a midday turn on and no doubt tipping generously in the process.

Yes I agree quite marked.  JB was able to focus sufficiently to obtain 7/8 'O' levels.  He also held down paid employment in customer facing roles at Little Chef and Sloppy Joes.  In fact he was so well thought of at Sloppy Joes he lived with the owners for a while.  Sadly all this was beyond SC due to her attachment disorder and change in brain architecture due to June's depression and neglect.

[Steve_uk]

Hi Steve_uk

http://developingchild.harvard.edu/index.php/download_file/-/view/582/

The scientific evidence is conclusive re the adverse effects from maternal depression please see above.

The adverse effects of neglect and attachment disorders are two quite separate issues.  I'm sad to say all the info in the public domain support the proposition of SC suffering from both.

Mary Bell suffered from abuse.  Abuse and neglect are two quite different issues.  Please see page 6 of the following:

http://developingchild.harvard.edu/index.php/download

The fact is Steve_uk the differences between SC and JB in this regard are marked.  It doesn't really matter what any of us on this forum think or choose to believe.  At the end of the day it will be down to neuroscientists, paediatricians, psychologists and psychiatrists to reevaluate 

I should also point out that if the expectant mother is stressed and/or depressed this can also adversely effect the developing foetus.  Again it would appear that the single Christine Jay might have suffered more than Juliet Wheeler who had the major on hand 

I quoted Mary Bell to discuss the separate issues and have not confused them in my mind. It's possible that Sheila and Jeremy had markedly different upbringings but it is only speculation on your part,as is the difference in their respective biological parents. Would Juliet have really felt so secure as an expectant mother in 1960 or in my opinion far more anxious as she wondered whether Leslie was going to marry or abandon her?

[Steve_uk]

In addition to the above we need to add in the psychology of adoption too.

http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Psychology_of_Adoption.html?id=7WQp2uEnogoC&redir_esc=y

Again the difference between SC and JB are marked in that JB appeared untroubled by his adoption and showed no interest in his birth parents unlike SC who met her birth mother only weeks before the murders.

But it's more of a female thing to be inquisitive about your family ancestry and as long as June would play Lady Bountiful Jeremy had few complaints. It's only when there were money issues(similar to the Roderick Newall case) that Jeremy began to fantasize about life without his parents,they being the primary focus.

[Steve_uk]

Yes I agree quite marked.  JB was able to focus sufficiently to obtain 7/8 'O' levels.  He also held down paid employment in customer facing roles at Little Chef and Sloppy Joes.  In fact he was so well thought of at Sloppy Joes he lived with the owners for a while.  Sadly all this was beyond SC due to her attachment disorder and change in brain architecture due to June's depression and neglect.

But how little resentment there seemed to be. Sheila could have refused Nevill's request to return to St. Andrew's,she could have told June to go to hell when she was sent round to char for Ann Eaton,she could have turned her back on her parents completely. Instead we know she looked up to her father who was the one constant in her life and was excited and thrilled when she met her birth mother in those last months.

[killingeve]

But it's more of a female thing to be inquisitive about your family ancestry and as long as June would play Lady Bountiful Jeremy had few complaints. It's only when there were money issues(similar to the Roderick Newall case) that Jeremy began to fantasize about life without his parents,they being the primary focus.

Errr I think adoptees seeking a reunion with birth parents is a bit more complex than "inquisitive about your family ancestry". 

The only fantasies we can be sure about are those that SC discussed with Dr F unless of course you wish to speculate which you are quite fond of doing.

Did the Newalls suffer an attachment disorder due to abrupt and multiple changes in primary caregivers?   Maternal deprivation due to their primary caregiver suffering from severe depression?  Changes in brain architecture due to neglect?  I'm not going round in circles with you.

[Steve_uk]

Errr I think adoptees seeking a reunion with birth parents is a bit more complex than "inquisitive about your family ancestry". 

The only fantasies we can be sure about are those that SC discussed with Dr F unless of course you wish to speculate which you are quite fond of doing.

Did the Newalls suffer an attachment disorder due to abrupt and multiple changes in primary caregivers?   Maternal deprivation due to their primary caregiver suffering from severe depression?  Changes in brain architecture due to neglect?  I'm not going round in circles with you.

We are going round in circles,because many of us have accepted  that Sheila may well have suffered from an attachment disorder-it's just that we don't see this as the cause of five deaths at White House Farm. A possibility for the crimes may well have been the money motive which was similar to the Roderick Newall case.

[lookout]

We are going round in circles,because many of us have accepted  that Sheila may well have suffered from an attachment disorder-it's just that we don't see this as the cause of five deaths at White House Farm. A possibility for the crimes may well have been the money motive which was similar to the Roderick Newall case.

Steve,,if Jeremy had " planned " these murders as has been said,,then he didn't make allowances for the fact that should he be caught,,then he'd relinquish every cent,,so this wasn't about money as far as he was concerned,,or anything else because he didn't take part in them,,and until someone can come up with something concrete like nailing him with a chunk of forensic evidence,,then I remain on his side of innocent.

[killingeve]

We are going round in circles,because many of us have accepted  that Sheila may well have suffered from an attachment disorder-it's just that we don't see this as the cause of five deaths at White House Farm. A possibility for the crimes may well have been the money motive which was similar to the Roderick Newall case.

Not just an attachment disorder but neglect, changes in brain architecture and adoption psychology.

Who is "we"?  Not the jury that's for sure as they did not benefit from an understanding of this vital aspect of the case.

[lookout]

Reading about a woman,,Natalie Cann and her husband,,,on benefits,,nine children and expecting her 10th in March of next year. Natalie is originally from a middle class family,,who father is a bio-medical scientist and her mother, a nurse,,who adopted Natalie as a baby. Natalie was an only child,,fit,healthy and happy,,and both parents had envisaged a bright future for her.
However,,it didn't happen.  Instead, she lives with her husband and nine children,in deprivation and on benefits,in cramped  housing conditions.
Why.? She was in a loveless family who put themselves,their positions in life,,and thoughts of Natalies' future,,before her as a child. This is her way of rebelling,,and rebel she does,,against conditions which she doesn't think she should be living in,so is demanding a bigger house and a bigger car to transport her family in,,and asking why she can't have what other large families have,referring to the other family whose house was knocked into the adjoining one next door.
This is the damage that her early life has created, through no fault of her own.

[maggie]

Reading about a woman,,Natalie Cann and her husband,,,on benefits,,nine children and expecting her 10th in March of next year. Natalie is originally from a middle class family,,who father is a bio-medical scientist and her mother, a nurse,,who adopted Natalie as a baby. Natalie was an only child,,fit,healthy and happy,,and both parents had envisaged a bright future for her.
However,,it didn't happen.  Instead, she lives with her husband and nine children,in deprivation and on benefits,in cramped  housing conditions.
Why.? She was in a loveless family who put themselves,their positions in life,,and thoughts of Natalies' future,,before her as a child. This is her way of rebelling,,and rebel she does,,against conditions which she doesn't think she should be living in,so is demanding a bigger house and a bigger car to transport her family in,,and asking why she can't have what other large families have,referring to the other family whose house was knocked into the adjoining one next door.
This is the damage that her early life has created, through no fault of her own.

Hi lookout, is it proven she was brought up in such a loveless family or do her genes ie. nature over nurture account for her way of life? 
I'm not arguing against your post, just interested as I am a strong believer in the power of genetics. 

[lookout]

Hi lookout, is it proven she was brought up in such a loveless family or do her genes ie. nature over nurture account for her way of life? 
I'm not arguing against your post, just interested as I am a strong believer in the power of genetics. 

Hi Maggie,,apparently Natalie was initially bitter to learn that her birth mother abandoned her when she was 4 hours old. It doesn't state under what circumstances.
Aww,,bless her,,she says that she's bringing up her family so that when she reaches a certain age,,they'll love her,aww,how sad.
Natalie was born in 1979 and adopted in 1980. The Canns' who adopted her lived in Christchurch, Dorset,by the sea. She knows nothing about her adoption,which,like the Bambers',was done privately,,and so the parents weren't forthcoming with any information.She was never allowed to discuss it with her dad as it upset him too much.
Her father is horrified at the way Natalie is living,,as when he does see her,he tells her to get a job,but she has another baby instead.

Adoptive parents had a glitch in their marriage when the husband,,who worked in Berkshire,left the family home to live with another woman. Natalie was 6 at the time.
At the age of 13,Natalie had been to 4 schools with moving. At 14,,Natalie left her mother,who she didn't get on with,,and moved to live with her father. Her father had re-married,,and as a consequence,,the new step-mother didn't want Natalie either.
To cut a long story short,,Natalie then fell for a chap who'd been in prison for drug crimes,,and so began a downward spiral of Natalies' middle-class life without love or stability. Poor girl,eh.?