Neglect and the Effect on Developing Brains of Babies/Small Children

[lookout]

Patti,,,kind as June was,,Colin must have felt so inadequate that he couldn't provide these things. Some people aren't affected by the kindness of others,it depends upon you as a person,,but sometimes kindness like that can be a form of control,,harsh as it may sound. June might not have noticed the way that she was being,,I doubt for one minute that she'd have realised that by her kindness,it was pushing Colin to the background.
It's difficult to explain,not having known these people.
Would the fact that Junes' generosity have hampered Colin in any way.? Discouraged him from working,,with the thought that June was always there to fund them if anything went wrong.

[Patti]

Hi Patti  I agree with you June was the best Mother that she knew how to be and as for controlling Sheila maybe she thought Sheila needed looking out for I for one can look back at myself as a Mother and see many mistakes I made but it was never out of badness but inexperience and if I could turn the clock back I would approach things differently and look at my own behaviour as opposed to my son's but he has turned out pretty good but I take no credit for that he achieved that himself.

Hi Susan

Colin does not give June any credit in his book, yet she supplied their every need.  June may have had a controlling attitude, but I do feel she was a kind hearted woman who meant well. June's religious beliefs was probably looked down upon by her modern day children who had found a life outside WHF.....Both Sheila and Jeremy had friends, and enjoyed the London life like any other normal person did at their age...They had discovered a new life, but poor June was still of old school and this might be were the resentment lies, especially with Sheila.....Its so flippin sad for all of them that all their lives were cut short in one moment of madness.....

[Patti]

Patti,,,kind as June was,,Colin must have felt so inadequate that he couldn't provide these things. Some people aren't affected by the kindness of others,it depends upon you as a person,,but sometimes kindness like that can be a form of control,,harsh as it may sound. June might not have noticed the way that she was being,,I doubt for one minute that she'd have realised that by her kindness,it was pushing Colin to the background.
It's difficult to explain,not having known these people.
Would the fact that Junes' generosity have hampered Colin in any way.? Discouraged him from working,,with the thought that June was always there to fund them if anything went wrong.

Hi Lookout

I think you might be right. They could have seen her kindness as being controlling.  Jeremy himself had said that when June brought up the subject of marriage to Julie, it was then he changed his mind about marrying Julie, because he didn't want to do what his mother had wanted him to do.....

[lookout]

Hi Lookout

I think you might be right. They could have seen her kindness as being controlling.  Jeremy himself had said that when June brought up the subject of marriage to Julie, it was then he changed his mind about marrying Julie, because he didn't want to do what his mother had wanted him to do.....

Sheila also knew this with her mother and that's why she did exactly the opposite to what June wanted her to do.In other words,,Sheila rebelled,,and because it went out of control,,her end result was destruction of the whole family.

[maggie]

Hi Lookout

I think you might be right. They could have seen her kindness as being controlling.  Jeremy himself had said that when June brought up the subject of marriage to Julie, it was then he changed his mind about marrying Julie, because he didn't want to do what his mother had wanted him to do.....

Hi Patti/lookout, I do agree, Jeremy has said that June had a very strong personality which could also mean controlling.   I agree that doesn't mean June wasn't a kind woman she may have been over kind at times and demanded good behaviour in return, she was known in the local area as a very kind person. 
I can understand that both of the children would often find themselves at odds with her as they strove to make their own way and their own mistakes but at the same time I don't see anything sinister in June's behaviour. 
Sheila's obsessions with June could have grown from her Paranoid Schizophrenic illness which can cause misunderstanding and grudge bearing towards others and could have possibly caused real paranoia towards her mother?? 
I do believe, and no disrespect intended, when Colin was a young man he was a bit of a waster in so far as he wanted to do his art, have a beautiful girlfriend but not to take any responsibility for anything, none of this would be helped by Sheila's difficult moods and behaviour.  To him June was probably too interfering and moralising.  Certainly doesn't sound like a happy situation imo.

[lookout]

Too much kindness, kills.

[Patti]

Hi Patti/lookout, I do agree, Jeremy has said that June had a very strong personality which could also mean controlling. I agree that doesn't mean June wasn't a kind woman she may havebeen over kind at times and demanded good behaviour in return, she was known in the local area as a very kind person.  I can understand that both of the children would often find them at odds with her as they strove to make their own way and their own mistakes but at the same time I don't see anything sinister in this behaviour.  Sheila's obsessions with June could have grown from her Paranoid Schizophrenic illness which can cause misunderstanding and grudge bearing towards others and could have possibly caused real paranoia towards her mother?? 
I do believe, and no disrespect intended, when Colin was a young man he was a bit of a waster in so far as he wanted to do his art, have a beautiful girlfriend but not to take any responsibility for anything, none of this would be helped by Sheila's difficult moods and behaviour.  To him June was probably too interfering and moralising.  None of it sounds like a happy situation imo.

Hi Maggie

Jeremy writes to Colin its at the end of his book...Jeremy is furiated and blames her illness on him and tells him that he knew she would not be able to cope when he left her with twins....This in my opinion is Jeremy sticking up for his sister and telling Colin that he failed her and let her down....

Sheila's relationship with Colin was in my opinion a turning point in her life and this failed marriage had in some way added to illness. 

[maggie]

Hi Maggie

Jeremy writes to Colin its at the end of his book...Jeremy is furiated and blames her illness on him and tells him that he knew she would not be able to cope when he left her with twins....This in my opinion is Jeremy sticking up for his sister and telling Colin that he failed her and let her down....

Sheila's relationship with Colin was in my opinion a turning point in her life and this failed marriage had in some way added to illness. 

I certainly believe it didn't help Patti.  It surely must have been obvious to Colin that Sheila was very vulnerable and he should have taken far more care of her imo.  I am sure Sheila was very difficult at times, she had an explosive temper, very possibly part of her developing illness and Colin may have been at a loss but he was as responsible for those boys as she was and he showed little care for any of them in those early years imo.
For all that hindsight is a wonderful thing. 

[Alias]

Hi lookout, I do agree.  I know from my own experience that my first adopted daughter suffered very much as a tiny baby from change of handling, voice, smell, temperature etc.  She was a particularly aware baby and from 4 weeks old she cried continually and seldom slept more than 30 mins at a time.  She was a very controlling young child who was difficult to handle but fortunately with protection and care she grew into a grounded happy adult. She has had counselling latterly for an attachment disorder or bewilderment disorder due to her rediscovering her natural mother.  Her disorder has never affected my relationship with her which is very close neither has she had any trouble making friends etc.  she has well  over 1000 facebook friends from all over the world.  Babies are far more aware of their conditions and surroundings than we sometimes acknowledge,

Your girls are so lucky to have you as their mother, kudos to you for how you have handled your children!
You look lovely, BTW! 

[killingeve]

The still face experiment is shocking and I really don't think it should be allowed however much information it may impart to psychologists. If we go along with your thesis that June was this still faced woman who by default failed to give enough attention to Sheila even when she must have seen what the resulting harm was,or that replacement caregivers were also a shower and froze Sheila out,and even Nevill was too tired after a hard day's work on the Farm to cuddle,coo,pick her up or play with her toes then we have a damaged Sheila suffering from an attachment disorder,and for the purposes of this post let us accept all of this for one moment.

The attachment disorder can manifest itself in several ways. Violent parenting can result in extremis in the Mary Bell scenario,where Mary gets her own back on two little boys as she acts out the violent abuse her mother gave her whilst witnessing her prostitute mother deliberately harming her and being subjected to violent sexual acts by her male clientele. Before we drift from the subject the main point is the child's brain has been damaged as if it had been involved in a car accident,though of course one cannot see the damage physically;however the child as it begins to grow and sense adults around it develops survival skills first at the expense of relationship skills,manifested in manipulation,control,aggression or withdrawal.

You will see that I just cannot reconcile the above characteristics with Sheila;rather I see her as vacuous as has been described many times on this forum,and living in a vacuum,in a world which she found difficult to relate to,but I find no evidence of her harming pets,bullying fellow pupils(if anything it was Sheila who was bullied),I don't see her as manipulative but struggling with her developing mental illness which must have hit her like a ton of bricks,yet again I don't see her complaining as she undergoes mood swings and side-effects in medication. It was the self-harm which was a symptom of her illness,and certainly not inflicting physical pain on others.

Of course Sheila had a serious mental illness(we don't know how serious June's was but  it seems she did not suffer from hallucinations and appeared to function in her milieu of charitable works and Church), could hardly get up out of bed in the morning and seemed to drift from one idea to another.However we may judge her for her vapid and aimless existence it's still a stretch for her to have finally given up on everything and everyone that last week over a remark about fostering or adoption around the dinner table which may or may not have taken place.

Whilst recognizing that every child is different I note other symptoms of attachment disorder:destruction which may undoubtedly have occurred with some of Colin's sculptures whilst they were living together,but then I also read that these children can be charming,generally when this person is interacting with people they rarely see(Jeremy writing letters from prison),controlling(Jeremy demanding money with menaces from June),stealing and lying(the Osea Road burglary),low impulse control(Jeremy kills five people within a short space of time because he hasn't thought through his actions and has no understanding of how his actions impact on others),no apparent remorse or conscience(the loss of five lives didn't bother Jeremy at all..when he looks you in the eye it's an indication that he's lying).

Nobody is denying that Sheila may well have suffered from attachment disorder,though it's hard to envisage how differently Jeremy was brought up than his sister,especially when daughters are usually the apple of their father's eye and are likely to be more reticent with sons in their early years. Both children were palmed off to multiple caregivers at an early age whereupon they were sent to public school for others to deal with(unlike Roderick Newall there was at least some time to bond during holidays),yet Jeremy had arrived into this emotionally-charged environment where all had the best of intentions to start with(remember Jeremy imitating Nevill with his food choice at breakfast),yet the individual just cannot maintain the facade of being someone else and the relationship breaks down. This is exactly what happened with Jeremy and Nevill.Parents expect change in their children(re:June's "Devil's Child remark to Sheila) yet this only puts further pressure on the child and the cycle of mistrust and in Sheila's case helplessness continues. However in my opinion Sheila had worked through her negativity with June after leaving St. Andrew's for the second time and had put her mother's former condemnations to one side. It was Jeremy who saw the years stretching out before him and realized that time was not on his side.

Hi Steve_uk

http://developingchild.harvard.edu/index.php/download_file/-/view/582/

The scientific evidence is conclusive re the adverse effects from maternal depression please see above.

The adverse effects of neglect and attachment disorders are two quite separate issues.  I'm sad to say all the info in the public domain support the proposition of SC suffering from both.

Mary Bell suffered from abuse.  Abuse and neglect are two quite different issues.  Please see page 6 of the following:

http://developingchild.harvard.edu/index.php/download

The fact is Steve_uk the differences between SC and JB in this regard are marked.  It doesn't really matter what any of us on this forum think or choose to believe.  At the end of the day it will be down to neuroscientists, paediatricians, psychologists and psychiatrists to reevaluate 

I should also point out that if the expectant mother is stressed and/or depressed this can also adversely effect the developing foetus.  Again it would appear that the single Christine Jay might have suffered more than Juliet Wheeler who had the major on hand 

[killingeve]

http://developingchild.harvard.edu/index.php/download_file/-/view/1249/

Please see page 6 above.  Dunno what happened to previous link 

[killingeve]

In addition to the above we need to add in the psychology of adoption too.

http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Psychology_of_Adoption.html?id=7WQp2uEnogoC&redir_esc=y

Again the difference between SC and JB are marked in that JB appeared untroubled by his adoption and showed no interest in his birth parents unlike SC who met her birth mother only weeks before the murders.

[killingeve]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAAOWN-x0e0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[killingeve]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVuJ5KhpL34&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Steve_uk]

For what it's worth, research shows that heavy cannabis use increases the risk of psychosis by up to 700%................and children who suffer neglect are more likely to use illegal substances.

..and Jeremy was using cannabis heavily in the run-up to the murders. It's an explanation for the change in character of this individual which the Jeremy supporters find hard to contemplate.