Truth of the night before

[killingeve]

Susan...I do believe that you are probably right! x

Hi Tyler

I'm afraid your top notch posts based on reason and logic will be lost on Steve_uk 

[susan]

Hello naughty nun  steve does not do logic and stop being cruel to your poor bairns as Patti will have the RSPCA onto you

[Jane]

Hello naughty nun  steve does not do logic and stop being cruel to your poor bairns as Patti will have the RSPCA onto you

Actually, Susan, Steve DOES do logic, the only trouble is, it's his own and comes from a place which only he inhabits and no one else seems to understand. It's others' emotions that Steve seems to have problems with.

[Steve_uk]

Morning Steve_uk

The pot calling the kettle black springs to mind 

You seem to have a stange view of those who have attended boarding school.  Slept with one last night and he seemed ok.    .

I think you will find that prisons are stuffed full of men who spent time in care ie childrens' homes not boarding schools.  Those who went to boarding school and find themselves in prison usually do so as a result of white collar crime eg the gorgeous Darius Guppy and the not so georgeous Lord Brocket.

Please do your homework or you face detention with Maggie 

Had you done your homework you would have known the horse's mouth said it had been more difficult to settle in Gresham's School than Gartree Prison Leicestershire.

I have not liked your tone towards me for some weeks now and I suggest that you modify your attitude before it backfires on yourself and members start to rally to my defence due to your posts which often go off at a tangent on the flimsiest of pretexts..

[Steve_uk]

Steve,if you don't mind me saying,there is a major problem with your train of thought regarding at least two of your allegations regarding JB. The first being that you are convinced that he switched around the telephones pre murders. Why then would he leave the upstairs office telephone in situ? The second is your allegation that Jeremy did not want to be tied to the farm and this is why he murdered his family. You know full well (and so did he) that Nevill's will tied him to the farm anyway,so what would JB actually have achieved by wiping out his family?

The office telephone would have been out of reach for Nevill were he to be frogmarched downstairs under gunpoint,and it's clear to me the struggle took place in the kitchen area as Nevill was not going down without a fight. As for Jeremy and the Farm there are so many indicators that his heart wasn't in that occupation-his numerous foreign trips,his employment at Little Chef,the long hours culture which to be fair wouldn't suit most people. With Jeremy's parents,sister and nephews out of the way Jeremy stood to be the sole beneficiary of his parents' wills,the amount being a huge sum in today's money which would come to Jeremy and with it he could walk away from farming altogether and start anew,which is exactly what he did do for his 33 days of freedom,setting up base at the Maida Vale flat he had directly inherited as a result of the five deaths.

[Alias]

Had you done your homework you would have known the horse's mouth said it had been more difficult to settle in Gresham's School than Gartree Prison Leicestershire.

I have not liked your tone towards me for some weeks now and I suggest that you modify your attitude before it backfires on yourself and members start to rally to my defence due to your posts which often go off at a tangent on the flimsiest of pretexts..

Steve_uk, you talk about a tone in NN´s posts you dislike. Have you ever considered your own tone on this board? You very often seem to be "talking down" to us and wording your wild speculations as fact. Is it because the majority here are women that you find it natural to talk down? Come to think of it, you rarely engage in discussions with the male members, how come?

[Jane]

Had you done your homework you would have known the horse's mouth said it had been more difficult to settle in Gresham's School than Gartree Prison Leicestershire.

I have not liked your tone towards me for some weeks now and I suggest that you modify your attitude before it backfires on yourself and members start to rally to my defence due to your posts which often go off at a tangent on the flimsiest of pretexts..

Steve, please take care with the tone YOU use to reprimand those whose posts you dislike. We are frequently more lenient with you that we may be for other posters and I would expect the same courtesy from you. I feel very certain that NN will cope with a response from you toned in the way you feel is hers towards you.

[lookout]

The office telephone would have been out of reach for Nevill were he to be frogmarched downstairs under gunpoint,and it's clear to me the struggle took place in the kitchen area as Nevill was not going down without a fight. As for Jeremy and the Farm there are so many indicators that his heart wasn't in that occupation-his numerous foreign trips,his employment at Little Chef,the long hours culture which to be fair wouldn't suit most people. With Jeremy's parents,sister and nephews out of the way Jeremy stood to be the sole beneficiary of his parents' wills,the amount being a huge sum in today's money which would come to Jeremy and with it he could walk away from farming altogether and start anew,which is exactly what he did do for his 33 days of freedom,setting up base at the Maida Vale flat he had directly inherited as a result of the five deaths.

Steve,,schizophrenics aren't the tidiest of people.In fact,their surrounds reflect their mixed-up minds and thoughts,,though they don't process their thoughts the same as we do. The telephone,,which,,working perfectly,,was found under a heap of magazines on the chair. What it was doing there in the first place was anyones' guess,,but it wasn't deliberately hidden. It could well have been someones' intention to put it back on the worktops.It was obvious that someone was looking at magazines that evening,with one or two having been left on the table the next morning.
Both Neville and Jeremy would have been working the fields,so switching or hiding telephones wouldn't have been given a second thought.
For all we know,,it could well have been Sheila who put the phone there that night so that nobody could phone out from downstairs.
Would that have been the phone that was answered when Pam rang.? I've just thought of that.

It was never in Jeremys' interest to kill anyone " for the money ",as he was/is intelligent enough to realise that if he was caught,then he'd relinquish every halfpenny as soon as the cuffs went on. If he had thoughts of murder at all,,what about the old and ailing granny Speakman,,who didn't live long after the trial anyway.? Less than a year to wait.? Nobody is that desperate,,and he had a few hundred of his own,,so he could certainly pay his way,,as well as that of greedy-chops,the " high-society/maintenance " girlfriend.

Steve,,if you can't yet fathom out who the greedy ones were,yet,,then you're not as clever as I give you credit for. The arguments between the family that went on for ten years or so after the tragedy,,that reduced AP to a nervous wreck fighting for what was his. You can't blame Jeremy for that,,he was well chained.

On a more depressing note about the stinking lack of justice in this country,,Baby P's mother is going to be released any time soon.! Because she doesn't " pose a threat ".What.?
She only watched while her boyfriend and brother tortured that beautiful child to death.!

[Jane]

The office telephone would have been out of reach for Nevill were he to be frogmarched downstairs under gunpoint,and it's clear to me the struggle took place in the kitchen area as Nevill was not going down without a fight. As for Jeremy and the Farm there are so many indicators that his heart wasn't in that occupation-his numerous foreign trips,his employment at Little Chef,the long hours culture which to be fair wouldn't suit most people. With Jeremy's parents,sister and nephews out of the way Jeremy stood to be the sole beneficiary of his parents' wills,the amount being a huge sum in today's money which would come to Jeremy and with it he could walk away from farming altogether and start anew,which is exactly what he did do for his 33 days of freedom,setting up base at the Maida Vale flat he had directly inherited as a result of the five deaths.

According to what you've previously said, NOT SO. It was YOU who insisted that according to the terms of Nevill's will, Jeremy could ONLY claim his inheritance if he stuck with the farm.

[Steve_uk]

RE your first paragraph. At a time when I was anticipating a phone call that I PRAYED wouldn't happen, I laid out, beside the phone, the numbers of all those I would need to contact. Some were numbers totally unfamilier to me, some were numbers I used regularly. I had the "luxury" of being able to prepare, thus making life easier for me at a hugely difficult time, for the call I was dreading. Jeremy had no such "luxury."

RE your second paragraph. How HUGELY amusing to hear from the ONE poster on this forum, who previously had proclaimed that there was NOTHING wrong with Sheila save exhaustion!! She'd made a sandwich for a party, she's cleared up the beans which had missed the toast, she'd had the twins to care for, she'd travelled from London to Essex, she was pre menstrual PERLEEEEEEEEEEEEEZE!!!!!!!!! But WAIT!!!!! NOW, she can't even be called a "mother in the normal sense of the word" I wonder what caused this EXTREME turnaround. The person you describe her as being COULD have simply been on recreational drugs. I wonder which description of her the Bambers would have preferred. Would they have been willing to share with those of their family and wider world that their daughter was a PARANOID SCHIZOPHRENIC who would NEVER be cured, OR would they have preferred them to think that on occasions she took a little too much of a naughty substance and would "grow out of it." You RANT about how much Jeremy knew of her condition and how he used it to his advantage, but other than what he MAY have picked up outside the family, which wouldn't have been VERY much because we know that Jeremy had little time for anything remotely academic, the sum of what he ACTUALLY knew was in what he said to the police. I would stake my life on that Sheila's condition was NEVER mentioned, other than in private conversation, when it couldn't be avoided, between June and Nevill and they couldn't have known the full facts because Sheila was over 21, an adult, and her consultant was forbidden by law to divulge details of her illness with  ANYONE without Sheila's express permission. I really don't think ANYONE in WHF knew the full extent of the ramifications of Sheila's condition because none would have been entirely sure of what the condition was, partly because they didn't WANT to know.

I have never denied Sheila suffered from schizophrenia and we could argue about its type-paranoid,chronic and so on,and it was this illness which necessitated Sheila taking medication,which through personal experience of witnessing a family member with this condition I can relate partly to the agonies Sheila must have been going through,and the side effects of such medication such as excessive tiredness,the need for bed rest and the inability to concentrate for long periods on any meaningful activity. Given Sheila's scatty nature in the first place when my relative had a top notch brain I just don't envisage Sheila having the strength to accomplish everything she was supposed to have that morning. My relative suffered from coordination issues like Sheila:for example she found it difficult to turn taps on and off,something which I have never heard about Sheila,but it might explain the buckets in the kitchen if June ran water for her,and also makes the ritualistic washing theory less likely,the cleaning of the bath upstairs which must have become bloodstained if we accept the Defence's scenario,not to mention reloading the rifle which was in any case difficult to manipulate for a gun enthusiast,let alone someone as inexperienced in this regard as Sheila was.

[maggie]

I have never denied Sheila suffered from schizophrenia and we could argue about its type-paranoid,chronic and so on,and it was this illness which necessitated Sheila taking medication,which through personal experience of witnessing a family member with this condition I can relate partly to the agonies Sheila must have been going through,and the side effects of such medication such as excessive tiredness,the need for bed rest and the inability to concentrate for long periods on any meaningful activity. Given Sheila's scatty nature in the first place when my relative had a top notch brain I just don't envisage Sheila having the strength to accomplish everything she was supposed to have that morning. My relative suffered from coordination issues like Sheila:for example she found it difficult to turn taps on and off,something which I have never heard about Sheila,but it might explain the buckets in the kitchen if June ran water for her,and also makes the ritualistic washing theory less likely,the cleaning of the bath upstairs which must have become bloodstained if we accept the Defence's scenario,not to mention reloading the rifle which was in any case difficult to manipulate for a gun enthusiast,let alone someone as inexperienced in this regard as Sheila was.

Hi Steve, it is the medication which cause the coordination issues, so you cannot compare like with like. We know Sheila had cut her Haloperidol to the bone and was due her next injection but she wasn't taking any other medication even though she should have been therefore her coordination would have been as good as anyone else.  Back when we hear AE talking about 'putting beans on toast' she very well may have been on heavy meds but that was a long time before. 

[Steve_uk]

Hi April

I have to agree with you here, because no one knew the extent of her illness other than those that treated her for her condition.  The only thing Shelia's family did was to recognise  that poor Sheila needed help and, they went to lengths to get her help out of concern.  What was said privately to Dr F stayed private till the time came when he divulged this information by making several statements to the police. 

We could argue as to what Sheila's diagnosis was-paranoid,chronic,catatonic schizophrenia,but it's my belief Jeremy knew far more about his sister's condition than he let on. He in any case must have witnessed first hand the deterioration in someone in whom Jeremy as a teenager would have been proud to a woman incapable of earning her own living and dependent on June's trip to Maida Vale where she would write a cheque from the proceeds of the Osea Road dividend.

Yet it's never Sheila who is bleating for more money-always Jeremy,and in this we see Sheila's true character traits:an immature,gullible,easily-led young woman who like to be told she was pretty,but who was completely impractical at the best of times,and not fit for very much after her illness befell her.

[Jane]

I have never denied Sheila suffered from schizophrenia and we could argue about its type-paranoid,chronic and so on,and it was this illness which necessitated Sheila taking medication,which through personal experience of witnessing a family member with this condition I can relate partly to the agonies Sheila must have been going through,and the side effects of such medication such as excessive tiredness,the need for bed rest and the inability to concentrate for long periods on any meaningful activity. Given Sheila's scatty nature in the first place when my relative had a top notch brain I just don't envisage Sheila having the strength to accomplish everything she was supposed to have that morning. My relative suffered from coordination issues like Sheila:for example she found it difficult to turn taps on and off,something which I have never heard about Sheila,but it might explain the buckets in the kitchen if June ran water for her,and also makes the ritualistic washing theory less likely,the cleaning of the bath upstairs which must have become bloodstained if we accept the Defence's scenario,not to mention reloading the rifle which was in any case difficult to manipulate for a gun enthusiast,let alone someone as inexperienced in this regard as Sheila was.

But Sheila was so severely UNDERdosed that the coordination would have been irradicated and she would have been as capable as the next person of performing everyday tasks.

[Caroline R]

We could argue as to what Sheila's diagnosis was-paranoid,chronic,catatonic schizophrenia,but it's my belief Jeremy knew far more about his sister's condition than he let on. He in any case must have witnessed first hand the deterioration in someone in whom Jeremy as a teenager would have been proud to a woman incapable of earning her own living and dependent on June's trip to Maida Vale where she would write a cheque from the proceeds of the Osea Road dividend.

Yet it's never Sheila who is bleating for more money-always Jeremy,and in this we see Sheila's true character traits:an immature,gullible,easily-led young woman who like to be told she was pretty,but who was completely impractical at the best of times,and not fit for very much after her illness befell her.

And yet you keep telling us that just before her death, she had everything to live for!! Make you mind up Steve!!

[Patti]

We could argue as to what Sheila's diagnosis was-paranoid,chronic,catatonic schizophrenia,but it's my belief Jeremy knew far more about his sister's condition than he let on. He in any case must have witnessed first hand the deterioration in someone in whom Jeremy as a teenager would have been proud to a woman incapable of earning her own living and dependent on June's trip to Maida Vale where she would write a cheque from the proceeds of the Osea Road dividend.

Yet it's never Sheila who is bleating for more money-always Jeremy,and in this we see Sheila's true character traits:an immature,gullible,easily-led young woman who like to be told she was pretty,but who was completely impractical at the best of times,and not fit for very much after her illness befell her.

In all fairness Steve I honestly can't see anyone in Sheila's family knowing the full extent of her illness. I'm sure they knew she was not well and did suffer from paranoid schizophrenia I doubt whether they fully understood the illness in its entirety.  How people viewed this illness is then and now is one of not fully understanding how this effects the mind.  To Jeremy of course he viewed it by saying she was a nutter.  Nutter, is not a nice word to use, but its used by millions of people who view illnesses like this...Its due to lack of knowledge and understanding.  Although, its not unusual for the term Nutter to be said....Vanezes used it in one of his statements.... He said Jeremy would have to have been a NUTTER to have shot his family this way....

Lets not pull Sheila down too much, she was fit and healthy and at 5ft 71/2 inches was a tall woman....try wearing her shoes over the past 27 years, because she went through hell losing Colin then not having the twins...she was very vulnerable at this time and wanted to reach out so got in touch with her natural mother....I don't really wish to talk about Sheila all the time, I felt so sorry for her...she wanted so much to be loved....