The Relationship Between Adoptive Mother/June and Adopted Daughter/Sheila

[maggie]

Maggie, HI. I was really just picking up on Dr F's words. IMO, it was a sweeping statement and sounds as if he made no corelation between the removal of the cyst/ovary and her mental health. Perhaps he was trying to get away from Freud's belief that the uterus was the seat of hysteria.

Hi April, I had noticed this myself but it's a hugely complicated question imo  We don't know enough of June's illness. We don't know how she was treated, if it was a serious illness which caused her to lose her ovaries at a very young age I would not be the least surprised if she became mentally ill for it's a very difficult thing to have to deal with physically and psychologically.  However, I am not surprised Dr F made no correlation between the two because most doctors, at that time had little or no idea the impact such treatment would have on a woman.  As I said it's a difficult subject without all the facts and it's also a very personal subject imo.

[Jane]

Hi April, I had noticed this myself but it's a hugely complicated question imo  We don't know enough of June's illness. We don't know how she was treated, if it was a serious illness which caused her to lose her ovaries at a very young age I would not be the least surprised if she became mentally ill for it's a very difficult thing to have to deal with physically and psychologically.  However, I am not surprised Dr F made no correlation between the two because most doctors, at that time had little or no idea the impact such treatment would have on a woman.  As I said it's a difficult subject without all the facts and it's also a very personal subject imo.

You're quite correct Maggie, it is Also, I fear I'm in grave danger of judging some of the players ignorant of information which wasn't available to them at the time.

[SUMMER]

One question,

How do we know that June ever wanted to adopt children?

Could Nevill be the instigator of the adoptions?

Could the couple have felt compelled to adopt children to enable

the farm to be cared for as they, themselves, aged?

Was it a purely practical motive and not really a desire at all?

Summer

[Jane]

One question,

How do we know that June ever wanted to adopt children?

Could Nevill be the instigator of the adoptions?

Could the couple have felt compelled to adopt children to enable

the farm to be cared for as they, themselves, aged?

Was it a purely practical motive and not really a desire at all?

Summer

Summer, HI, good to see you. Hope you're well.

I actually made it 4 questions but the answer to all of them is emphatically YES which would throw the dynamic in a totally different direction.

[SUMMER]

Hi april1,

Yes, they do make up a total of four questions!

I think I was just carrying on thinking to myself about possible

motives for the adoptions.

For instance, was June depressed/disturbed before the adoptions? (Would adopting "fix" her?)

Was their belief that marriage within the Christian Church was about the raising of children?

Was the marriage a bit "shaky" and the adoptions to stabilize it?

Because whatever the motivations it caused an incredible amount of bad feeling within the

wider family because the relatives realized that the non-blood adoptees would inherit June's

families fortune. A chunk they would have inherited themselves save for these adoptions.

I think that within Farming families this would have been greatly disliked.

Summer

[killingeve]

NaNu, I believe Dr F claimed that June failed to conceive because of the removal of an ovary/ovarian cyst. This on it's own doesn't prevent conception. A friend was found to need a cyst removed from an ovary and during the operation it was discovered that she was pregnant. Not only did the pregnacy develop to healthy term, she went on to have three more babies. Could the cyst, like my mother's diseased bone, have been the explanation given for not having babies. I find it hard to believe that the decision to adopt was the reason for June's first breakdown, but I would believe that a refusal of the request to adopt may have been.

Hi April

Yes I agree I've posted about this before ie suprised that the removal of an ovarian cyst prevented conception but I guess it may have been more complicated than that 

Well perhaps it wasn't the decision to adopt per se but the realisation/loss of not having birth children

Had she have been refused adoption how did she then circumvent the system and adopt?

[killingeve]

Hi april1,

Yes, they do make up a total of four questions!

I think I was just carrying on thinking to myself about possible

motives for the adoptions.

For instance, was June depressed/disturbed before the adoptions? (Would adopting "fix" her?)

Was their belief that marriage within the Christian Church was about the raising of children?

Was the marriage a bit "shaky" and the adoptions to stabilize it?

Because whatever the motivations it caused an incredible amount of bad feeling within the

wider family because the relatives realized that the non-blood adoptees would inherit June's

families fortune. A chunk they would have inherited themselves save for these adoptions.

I think that within Farming families this would have been greatly disliked.

Summer

Hi Summer

I hope you are well. 

I rememer when I first joined the forum I pm'd you and asked you what the score was   

Good points which I hadn't previously considered.

[killingeve]

Hi April, I had noticed this myself but it's a hugely complicated question imo  We don't know enough of June's illness. We don't know how she was treated, if it was a serious illness which caused her to lose her ovaries at a very young age I would not be the least surprised if she became mentally ill for it's a very difficult thing to have to deal with physically and psychologically.  However, I am not surprised Dr F made no correlation between the two because most doctors, at that time had little or no idea the impact such treatment would have on a woman.  As I said it's a difficult subject without all the facts and it's also a very personal subject imo.

Hi Maggie

I think the most important thing here is that whatever the cause of June's infertility and mental illness '59 it is quite likely that sadly it caused a lot of untold psychological and emotional damage to SC.  SC had already been separated from her birth mother and was then separated from June.  I'm unsure who took care of SC whilst June was in hospital but obviously this again would have amounted to another separation ie from a third primary caregiver upon being returned to June.  Its quite likely that some sort of attachment disorder occured and this can be evidenced by many aspects of SC's life.  We also need to consider whether June might have been unintentionally neglectful in her care of SC leading up to her mental illness/hospitalisation.  Neuroscientists have now shown that neglect effects brain development.  The jury should have been made aware of all of this and obviously SC's reunion with her birth mother some weeks before the murders. 

[tyler]

I have a feeling that the cyst on Junes ovary and the removal of it were indeed linked to her infertility. After falling pregnant easily with my first two children,I struggled to conceive with my third. The doctor diagnosed secondary infertility and told me that I had polycystic ovarian syndrome. This causes a low progesterone level,which in turn makes it hard to conceive. I was given Clomid (a fertility drug) and fell in the first month of taking them. I wouldn't have thought the medication was avaliable back when June was trying to conceive? Can I just also add that women that suffer with POS also tend to suffer badly with PMT.

[maggie]

I have a feeling that the cyst on Junes ovary and the removal of it were indeed linked to her infertility. After falling pregnant easily with my first two children,I struggled to conceive with my third. The doctor diagnosed secondary infertility and told me that I had polycystic ovarian syndrome. This causes a low progesterone level,which in turn makes it hard to conceive. I was given Clomid (a fertility drug) and fell in the first month of taking them. I wouldn't have thought the medication was avaliable back when June was trying to conceive? Can I just also add that women that suffer with POS also tend to suffer badly with PMT.

I tyler you are right. back then POS wasnt understood at all and before hormone
treatments that are vrey recent no treatment was available even if the condition was
recognised. Should imagine it was a common cause of unexplained infertility until more recent advances in fertility treatments.

[Jane]

I tyler you are right. back then POS wasnt understood at all and before hormone
treatments that are vrey recent no treatment was available even if the condition was
recognised. Should imagine it was a common cause of unexplained infertility until more recent advances in fertility treatments.

Maggie, good morning Perhaps you can tell me. Is there a difference between POC and a one off cyst on a ovary which can be cured by removing cyst and or ovary, and do we know which of them applied to June?

[lookout]

Maggie, good morning Perhaps you can tell me. Is there a difference between POC and a one off cyst on a ovary which can be cured by removing cyst and or ovary, and do we know which of them applied to June?

Good morning April,,the fact of the matter was that Junes' doctor at the time had told her that she was unable to ever conceive,and June took the news very badly,so bad in fact,that she had to go into a private psychiatric clinic suffering from depression. It took months before June was anywhere near recovered,,only for her to relapse again after adopting Jeremy.
June and Neville hadn't experienced any parenting skills,,and because the children were adopted,it was still at the back of Junes' thoughts that she'd been a failure not to have had her own children,,that so much so,these thoughts took over her life and she had many sessions with the psychiatrist.
I think that Junes' wish to have children came from the fact that her sister had had her children to make up a family,,so she herself saw something that she too wanted,,and when it wasn't to be,that's when Junes' troubles started.
Obviously I don't know the full reason for Junes' news of not being able to conceive,unless the ovaries were polycystic or that she'd had surgery,,oophorectomy,removal of both.

[Jane]

Good morning April,,the fact of the matter was that Junes' doctor at the time had told her that she was unable to ever conceive,and June took the news very badly,so bad in fact,that she had to go into a private psychiatric clinic suffering from depression. It took months before June was anywhere near recovered,,only for her to relapse again after adopting Jeremy.
June and Neville hadn't experienced any parenting skills,,and because the children were adopted,it was still at the back of Junes' thoughts that she'd been a failure not to have had her own children,,that so much so,these thoughts took over her life and she had many sessions with the psychiatrist.
I think that Junes' wish to have children came from the fact that her sister had had her children to make up a family,,so she herself saw something that she too wanted,,and when it wasn't to be,that's when Junes' troubles started.
Obviously I don't know the full reason for Junes' news of not being able to conceive,unless the ovaries were polycystic or that she'd had surgery,,oophorectomy,removal of both.

Lookout,  hello and thank you for the information. I do appreciate that this is a delicate subject but when I asked my adopted mother outright "Why couldn't you have your own children" she replied "I don't know". There was never any further explanation, but as they had already been married for a couple of decades, I don't think children had been a need for her. When it occured to me that what I'd been told was no more than a story created to prevent me asking difficult questions I had to deconstruct the myth to get at the truth. It may just be that I'm overly suspicious but I WAS lied to about the reasons for my adoption, and if one adopted mother can lie to her daughter, it seems to me there is the possibility that another can.

[maggie]

Good morning April,,the fact of the matter was that Junes' doctor at the time had told her that she was unable to ever conceive,and June took the news very badly,so bad in fact,that she had to go into a private psychiatric clinic suffering from depression. It took months before June was anywhere near recovered,,only for her to relapse again after adopting Jeremy.
June and Neville hadn't experienced any parenting skills,,and because the children were adopted,it was still at the back of Junes' thoughts that she'd been a failure not to have had her own children,,that so much so,these thoughts took over her life and she had many sessions with the psychiatrist.
I think that Junes' wish to have children came from the fact that her sister had had her children to make up a family,,so she herself saw something that she too wanted,,and when it wasn't to be,that's when Junes' troubles started.
Obviously I don't know the full reason for Junes' news of not being able to conceive,unless the ovaries were polycystic or that she'd had surgery,,oophorectomy,removal of both.

Hi April/lookout/NN  I am not surprised June found the fact she would never conceive very difficult to deal with.  It is a very hard thing to come to terms with for most women.   I can assure you, from my own experiences that the need for children and the inability to have them can colour every part of your life and if June was so badly affected then it certainly mattered hugely to her.   
Childlessness is a very difficult thing for many women to deal with we all grow up believing we will eventually have children of our own, it's a very strong biological urge for the majority of women and also a proof of their feminimity.  In time most women come to terms with the disappointment of not being able to conceive and try to adopt children, these days it's a difficult process and of course nowadays the problems can be solved by IVF in many instances.
I can assure you that adopted children are not usually better than nothing, a disappointed second choice but are loved for who they are and what they bring to their adopted parents.  Of course it doesn't always work like that but there is no proof that June was a 'disappointed' mother.  She may have found showing love difficult, she may have had all sorts of religious hang ups which clouded her vision but none of that means she was coerced into having children or that Sheila and Jeremy were in any way second best in her eyes. 

[lookout]

Even Sheila,,when it came to motherhood after the twins were born,,was a novice,,and had hired two local girls to become nannies to the boys,,,so it sounded as though not much support was coming forthwith from any direction,,which would have appeared frightening for Sheila being faced with two babies,and not much of a clue what to do. She obviously loved them in her own way,,but not the same tangible love that a close family experiences.
June didn't know how to express love,,as her forbears perhaps weren't that way inclined either,so no fault of Junes'.
Daughters usually have the guidance from their mothers,,but sadly this wasn't apparent.
Though my own was a " loving household ",there were never any,or many hugs etc for me.My brother was pampered as it was thought important to give the most encouragement to the son than the daughter,,him being seen as a future breadwinner,I suppose.
The same as it was for Jeremy who wanted all the hugs and cuddles in that family. So how can it be expected for the girls to reciprocate if it was never given in the first place.?
I do remember being,and feeling quite left out and questioned if I'd been invented rather than born.However,,I let it all go over my head,,as years later,I realised that my mother did love me,,but never showed it,simply because of her own harsh and heartbreaking background.