Author Topic: The Relationship Between Adoptive Mother/June and Adopted Daughter/Sheila  (Read 9507 times)

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Offline killingeve

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I believe Mike is on record as saying that he believes the June/Sheila relationship is at the heart of the WHF tragedy.  Assuming this is correct I agree with Mike on this one.

In the following post Bridget states "I don't accept that Sheila hated June, that's far too simplistic a view of their relationship." 

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4292.msg175721.html#msg175721

I've recently brought together various info re the June/Sheila relationship in connection with another post and just wondered what other posters thought?  Perhaps a poster can produce something, anything, even their own opinions, that shows their relationship in a different light to the one below. 

Dr F's wit stats

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6191

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6193

"She said she felt as if she was caught up in a "coven of evil".  These feelings appeared to be involved with her relationship with her adoptive mother and her standards of good and evil".

"She did see that Mrs Bamber was a threat to her, and did not want to visit the BAMBERS at their farm in Essex.  Sheila felt that Mrs Bamber had been over-protective towards her and found it difficult to express warm feelings towards her".

"In hindsight I believe that Sheila would have relapsed into a state of psychosis, probably having a firmly held belief or delusion involving concepts of good and evil, and certainly paranoid, possibly involving her mother."

"Both June and Sheila suffered dillusional states of religion and Sheila's illness was influenced by her mother although I do not think the illnesses were caused by the same problem."

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1201.0;attach=6197

"I also treated Sheila's adopted mother, Mrs June BAMBER at St Andrew's Hospital, Northants.  I can say that June after suffering a long period of childlessness was examined and eventually an ovarian cyst was removed.  She made a decision to adopt and having done this suffered severe depressions.  This was around 1959.  She required ECT as an in-patient and made a full recover.

Farhad Emani (Freddie) wit stats:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=214

"She also had a deep dislike of her stepmother who apparently kept quoting religion at her.  This would upset Sheila and annoy her".

"She would not discuss all her problems, although whenever she visited her father, she would return even more depressed because of her stepmother.  Apparently the stepmother would preach to her about her boyfriends and how it was wrong that she should make love with them and Sheila should remember GOD.  She gradually detoriated until about three weeks before her first breakdown, Nicholas fell out of a taxi when she was returning from her parents.  She blamed herself for this because she was not concentrating on what the children were doing only on Mother's religious rantings".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=216

"Whilst I was there she telephoned Tara, a close friend.  She was apologising to Tara for a Religious book that her step mother had dropped off at Tara's house a couple of days previously".

"She kept talking about the Devil and God, and stated that God was sitting opposite her and unlike what her stepmother said he in fact loved her".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=218

"Had it just been her Stepmother who had been killed I could accept it as she disliked her intensely but to think she has killed her father and children is difficult to comprehend".

CC's Letter Intended For NB

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=7232

"I will not allow her to fuck up the minds of my children in the way I suspect she has your daughters.  I am sorry to be so blunt but that is restrained compared to how I really feel".

Excerpt From Claire Powell's book

Sheila made it clear to her friends that her precarious state of her personal equilibrium stemmed largely from her peculiar relationship with June.  She was morbidly sensitive to any hint of disapproval from her mother.  It was a theme she reverted to constantly.  'She talked about her mother and her background' said Sonja.  'She told me that she and her mother didn't get on.  Sheila told me many times that she could not talk to her mother at all, that there was no form of communication between them.  She  said her mother was never happy with her or with what she did. 


Offline Steve_uk

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I believe Mike is on record as saying that he believes the June/Sheila relationship is at the heart of the WHF tragedy.  Assuming this is correct I agree with Mike on this one.

In the following post Bridget states "I don't accept that Sheila hated June, that's far too simplistic a view of their relationship." 

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4292.msg175721.html#msg175721

I've recently brought together various info re the June/Sheila relationship in connection with another post and just wondered what other posters thought?  Perhaps a poster can produce something, anything, even their own opinions, that shows their relationship in a different light to the one below. 

Dr F's wit stats

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6191

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6193

"She said she felt as if she was caught up in a "coven of evil".  These feelings appeared to be involved with her relationship with her adoptive mother and her standards of good and evil".

"She did see that Mrs Bamber was a threat to her, and did not want to visit the BAMBERS at their farm in Essex.  Sheila felt that Mrs Bamber had been over-protective towards her and found it difficult to express warm feelings towards her".

"In hindsight I believe that Sheila would have relapsed into a state of psychosis, probably having a firmly held belief or delusion involving concepts of good and evil, and certainly paranoid, possibly involving her mother."

"Both June and Sheila suffered dillusional states of religion and Sheila's illness was influenced by her mother although I do not think the illnesses were caused by the same problem."

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1201.0;attach=6197

"I also treated Sheila's adopted mother, Mrs June BAMBER at St Andrew's Hospital, Northants.  I can say that June after suffering a long period of childlessness was examined and eventually an ovarian cyst was removed.  She made a decision to adopt and having done this suffered severe depressions.  This was around 1959.  She required ECT as an in-patient and made a full recover.

Farhad Emani (Freddie) wit stats:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=214

"She also had a deep dislike of her stepmother who apparently kept quoting religion at her.  This would upset Sheila and annoy her".

"She would not discuss all her problems, although whenever she visited her father, she would return even more depressed because of her stepmother.  Apparently the stepmother would preach to her about her boyfriends and how it was wrong that she should make love with them and Sheila should remember GOD.  She gradually detoriated until about three weeks before her first breakdown, Nicholas fell out of a taxi when she was returning from her parents.  She blamed herself for this because she was not concentrating on what the children were doing only on Mother's religious rantings".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=216

"Whilst I was there she telephoned Tara, a close friend.  She was apologising to Tara for a Religious book that her step mother had dropped off at Tara's house a couple of days previously".

"She kept talking about the Devil and God, and stated that God was sitting opposite her and unlike what her stepmother said he in fact loved her".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=218

"Had it just been her Stepmother who had been killed I could accept it as she disliked her intensely but to think she has killed her father and children is difficult to comprehend".

CC's Letter Intended For NB

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=7232

"I will not allow her to fuck up the minds of my children in the way I suspect she has your daughters.  I am sorry to be so blunt but that is restrained compared to how I really feel".

Excerpt From Claire Powell's book

Sheila made it clear to her friends that her precarious state of her personal equilibrium stemmed largely from her peculiar relationship with June.  She was morbidly sensitive to any hint of disapproval from her mother.  It was a theme she reverted to constantly.  'She talked about her mother and her background' said Sonja.  'She told me that she and her mother didn't get on.  Sheila told me many times that she could not talk to her mother at all, that there was no form of communication between them.  She  said her mother was never happy with her or with what she did.
The last paragraph could equally apply to Jeremy,and of course it gives him a pretext in his own mind to do away with them all as he is really putting them all out of their misery. Sheila was a passive onlooker in life who could find no outlet for her frustrations because her first port of call June would only discuss topics on a superficial level. I think Sheila saw through June by the end of her life and was not going to let her spoil her fun or her life in general. June herself was living on a knife edge seeking solace in good works outside the home,which had the semblance of some retro 1950s residence which is where June's mindset lay with Nevill content with his farm routine and both children unfortunately slipping through the net and growing ever far apart as the years progressed. One can just imagine as the school holidays came round and the children came home to a cold,empty house that they both wanted to get away from. The monetary comforts would help them swallow the bitter pill but the damage had been done,Sheila returning to the Farm for financial reasons only,and Jeremy beginning to realize that their home life was not normal. His repulsion at Sheila's fantasies involving the twins would set an evil plan germinating in his mind as he machinated on a scenario where all would be gone..
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 06:26:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline Jane

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The last paragraph could equally apply to Jeremy,and of course it gives him a pretext in his own mind to do away with them all as he is really putting them all out of their misery. Sheila was a passive onlooker in life who could find no outlet for her frustrations because her first port of call June would only discuss topics on a superficial level. I think Sheila saw through June by the end of her life and was not going to let her spoil her fun or her life in general. June herself was living on a knife edge seeking solace in good works outside the home,which had the semblance of some retro 1950s residence which is where June's mindset lay with Nevill content with his farm routine and both children unfortunately slipping through the net and growing ever far apart as the years progressed. One can just imagine as the school holidays came round and the children came home to a cold,empty house that they both wanted to get away from. The monetary comforts would help them swallow the bitter pill but the damage had been done,Sheila returning to the Farm for financial reasons only,and Jeremy beginning to realize that their home life was not normal. His repulsion at Sheila's fantasies involving the twins would set an evil plan germinating in his mind as he machinated on a scenario where all would be gone..

Steve, I was drawn to your use of "normal." I wonder what you mean by it and by whose/what frame of reference you guage it. For all of us, the place in which we spend our formative years will be our accepted norm and often when we experience others' lives, we guage them as NOT normal, because they are different from our own. I feel certain that the young Jeremy, emotionally immature and probably not given to introspection wouldn't have given any consideration to its normality or otherwise. It would have simply been how it was.

Offline Steve_uk

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Steve, I was drawn to your use of "normal." I wonder what you mean by it and by whose/what frame of reference you guage it. For all of us, the place in which we spend our formative years will be our accepted norm and often when we experience others' lives, we guage them as NOT normal, because they are different from our own. I feel certain that the young Jeremy, emotionally immature and probably not given to introspection wouldn't have given any consideration to its normality or otherwise. It would have simply been how it was.
I think Jeremy was initially frightened of Sheila's talk about God and good and evil,Sheila possibly enjoying the attention this subject brought her when she broached it. Later he would come to realize that he was not in a normal relationship with a sister and a mother as both were in need of psychiatric help. I don't think Jeremy was psychopathic,just an evil person who used these mental health issues to his own advantage.

Offline Jane

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I believe Mike is on record as saying that he believes the June/Sheila relationship is at the heart of the WHF tragedy.  Assuming this is correct I agree with Mike on this one.

In the following post Bridget states "I don't accept that Sheila hated June, that's far too simplistic a view of their relationship." 

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4292.msg175721.html#msg175721

I've recently brought together various info re the June/Sheila relationship in connection with another post and just wondered what other posters thought?  Perhaps a poster can produce something, anything, even their own opinions, that shows their relationship in a different light to the one below. 

Dr F's wit stats

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6191

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6193

"She said she felt as if she was caught up in a "coven of evil".  These feelings appeared to be involved with her relationship with her adoptive mother and her standards of good and evil".

"She did see that Mrs Bamber was a threat to her, and did not want to visit the BAMBERS at their farm in Essex.  Sheila felt that Mrs Bamber had been over-protective towards her and found it difficult to express warm feelings towards her".

"In hindsight I believe that Sheila would have relapsed into a state of psychosis, probably having a firmly held belief or delusion involving concepts of good and evil, and certainly paranoid, possibly involving her mother."

"Both June and Sheila suffered dillusional states of religion and Sheila's illness was influenced by her mother although I do not think the illnesses were caused by the same problem."

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1201.0;attach=6197

"I also treated Sheila's adopted mother, Mrs June BAMBER at St Andrew's Hospital, Northants.  I can say that June after suffering a long period of childlessness was examined and eventually an ovarian cyst was removed.  She made a decision to adopt and having done this suffered severe depressions.  This was around 1959.  She required ECT as an in-patient and made a full recover.

Farhad Emani (Freddie) wit stats:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=214

"She also had a deep dislike of her stepmother who apparently kept quoting religion at her.  This would upset Sheila and annoy her".

"She would not discuss all her problems, although whenever she visited her father, she would return even more depressed because of her stepmother.  Apparently the stepmother would preach to her about her boyfriends and how it was wrong that she should make love with them and Sheila should remember GOD.  She gradually detoriated until about three weeks before her first breakdown, Nicholas fell out of a taxi when she was returning from her parents.  She blamed herself for this because she was not concentrating on what the children were doing only on Mother's religious rantings".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=216

"Whilst I was there she telephoned Tara, a close friend.  She was apologising to Tara for a Religious book that her step mother had dropped off at Tara's house a couple of days previously".

"She kept talking about the Devil and God, and stated that God was sitting opposite her and unlike what her stepmother said he in fact loved her".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=218

"Had it just been her Stepmother who had been killed I could accept it as she disliked her intensely but to think she has killed her father and children is difficult to comprehend".

CC's Letter Intended For NB

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=7232

"I will not allow her to fuck up the minds of my children in the way I suspect she has your daughters.  I am sorry to be so blunt but that is restrained compared to how I really feel".

Excerpt From Claire Powell's book

Sheila made it clear to her friends that her precarious state of her personal equilibrium stemmed largely from her peculiar relationship with June.  She was morbidly sensitive to any hint of disapproval from her mother.  It was a theme she reverted to constantly.  'She talked about her mother and her background' said Sonja.  'She told me that she and her mother didn't get on.  Sheila told me many times that she could not talk to her mother at all, that there was no form of communication between them.  She  said her mother was never happy with her or with what she did.



NaNu, I really think you like to make life difficult :D Phew!! That's some question you've posed.

From all the word pictures painted of Sheila, other than when she kicks off, I get no impression of her as being feisty and I can't see her having word fights with June. I wonder if she used dumb insolence as a defence.

She seems to have told many people about her difficult relationship with June. Was she asking for help? You will know that I put little faith in "soundbites" but reading those you've quoted, it seems to me that by loading a small child with talk of good and evil, God and Devil, it would certainly have put the fear into her of one of the two. Does this mean she was frightened of June? Sorry, I can't do this without using my own experience which was simply that I knew from my earliest memory that whatever I did, however well I performed, it was never good enough for my mother. I also had a sense of helplessness, that I was powerless to do anything so I had to live with it. I also lived in fear that one day I would fail her so badly that she would throw me out. I often struggled but I did cope. It seems that Sheila didn't. I wonder if there was ever any semblance of closeness between Sheila and June. Did June ever experience joy and pride when she looked at Sheila. Did she ever do or say anything to make Sheila feel special?

OR might it be possible that Sheila never warmed to June? That she fought against everything required of her but bit back the words she wanted to spit at her but was too frightened to say them. I feel as confused about Sheila's relationship with June as I feel about my own relationship with my mother. I'm probably too close to this to give an objective answer.

Offline killingeve

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The last paragraph could equally apply to Jeremy,and of course it gives him a pretext in his own mind to do away with them all as he is really putting them all out of their misery. Sheila was a passive onlooker in life who could find no outlet for her frustrations because her first port of call June would only discuss topics on a superficial level. I think Sheila saw through June by the end of her life and was not going to let her spoil her fun or her life in general. June herself was living on a knife edge seeking solace in good works outside the home,which had the semblance of some retro 1950s residence which is where June's mindset lay with Nevill content with his farm routine and both children unfortunately slipping through the net and growing ever far apart as the years progressed. One can just imagine as the school holidays came round and the children came home to a cold,empty house that they both wanted to get away from. The monetary comforts would help them swallow the bitter pill but the damage had been done,Sheila returning to the Farm for financial reasons only,and Jeremy beginning to realize that their home life was not normal. His repulsion at Sheila's fantasies involving the twins would set an evil plan germinating in his mind as he machinated on a scenario where all would be gone..

Hi Steve_uk

I was monitoring my post to observe the number of views v number of replies.  At the time of your reply my post had received 20 views and 0 replies  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Unfortunately I think adoption and the June/SC relationship are somewhat taboo topics on the forum now especially as far as Lookout and Maggie are concerned.  So much so others shy away for fear of upsetting the aforementioned.  Hey ho. 

Anyway I thank you for your post as imo this whole topic raises serious points.

To my mind my post, or rather the witness statements, CC's letter intended for NB and the excerpt from CP's book show an extremely unhealthy/dysfunctional/toxic realationship between June and SC.  However, as far as I can see this was largely overlooked at trial and there's little reference to it in the CoA doc.  And yet at trial much was made of JB's dislike of his family.

Excerpt from CoA doc re JB's 'dislike' of his family

Other evidence of the appellant's dislike of his family
116.   Other evidence was given which supported the evidence of Miss Mugford that the appellant disliked his family. Mary Mugford (Julie's mother) said the appellant had often told her that he hated his adoptive mother and he described her as quite mad.
117.   During the winter of 1984 the appellant told one of the farm workers, "I'm not going to share my money with my sister" and he had always given the impression he did not get on with Sheila Caffell.
118.   James Richards, another student from Goldsmiths College who had met the appellant through Julie Mugford, heard him talk of his parents in about February 1985. He claimed they kept him short of money and that his mother was a religious freak. He said, "I fucking hate my parents".
119.   In about March 1985, in the context of a discussion about the security at the Osea Road caravan site, the appellant told his uncle Robert Boutflour, "… I could kill anybody … I could easily kill my parents".
120.   Witnesses were called on the appellant's behalf in respect of this aspect of the case. They included a sales representative and a chartered surveyor who said they had met the appellant and his father and that they had never heard the appellant say anything nasty about his family.

Excerpt from CoA doc re SC's relationship with June (see highlighted section)

369.   In addition, there was a body of evidence from non-expert witnesses who had spoken to or been in contact with Sheila Caffell in the days immediately preceding these killings. The trial judge devoted some eight pages of his summing up to all this evidence, and summarised its effect in the following way:
"Most of them saw signs of Sheila's illness which agreed entirely with Dr Ferguson's evidence about it. None of them, at any stage, knew of any physical violence by Sheila, although on occasions when she was acutely ill - as when Freddie saw her just before she went into hospital in March - they were frightened that she might become violent. All of them agree that she was loving - very loving - and caring for her twin sons. There was evidence that she sometimes had a difficult relationship with her mother. Everyone seems to agree that she was very attached to her father, and that he was the person who had a remarkably calming effect upon her. Dr Ferguson said that in his view she treated him as her mentor - a source of help and someone who could calm her when she was in trouble. There is no evidence from anyone of her ever expressing any violence towards her parents."
 
To my mind we have comments that might have been taken out of context with JB eg "I fucking hate my parents" (I accept you may not see like this).  Yet with SC we have "There was evidence that she sometimes had a difficult relationship with her mother" which imo is somewhat of an understatement  :-\

On a separate note, virtually nothing is made of June's mental illness and stays in psychiatric hospitals '59 and '82  :-\


Offline maggie

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NN that is so unfair to say such things about me. The only thing we have disagreed on is the fact that June deserves as much respect as Sheila, she was Jeremy's mother and she did die very violently. 
I don't know why you have singled me out this way.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 09:01:PM by maggie »

Offline Steve_uk

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NaNu, I really think you like to make life difficult :D Phew!! That's some question you've posed.

From all the word pictures painted of Sheila, other than when she kicks off, I get no impression of her as being feisty and I can't see her having word fights with June. I wonder if she used dumb insolence as a defence.

She seems to have told many people about her difficult relationship with June. Was she asking for help? You will know that I put little faith in "soundbites" but reading those you've quoted, it seems to me that by loading a small child with talk of good and evil, God and Devil, it would certainly have put the fear into her of one of the two. Does this mean she was frightened of June? Sorry, I can't do this without using my own experience which was simply that I knew from my earliest memory that whatever I did, however well I performed, it was never good enough for my mother. I also had a sense of helplessness, that I was powerless to do anything so I had to live with it. I also lived in fear that one day I would fail her so badly that she would throw me out. I often struggled but I did cope. It seems that Sheila didn't. I wonder if there was ever any semblance of closeness between Sheila and June. Did June ever experience joy and pride when she looked at Sheila. Did she ever do or say anything to make Sheila feel special?

OR might it be possible that Sheila never warmed to June? That she fought against everything required of her but bit back the words she wanted to spit at her but was too frightened to say them. I feel as confused about Sheila's relationship with June as I feel about my own relationship with my mother. I'm probably too close to this to give an objective answer.
I think June genuinely wanted the best for her children. Her religious beliefs forbade sex before marriage which created a conflict between her undoubted love for Sheila and the way Sheila was attracting men as she grew up. But June's heart was in the right place,she visited Sheila in London as often as she could and subbed her with the Osea Road dividend. Sheila wouldn't have been set up in the Moreshead Mansions flat without June's say-so,moving her and the boys from that damp Hampstead flat. As for Jeremy,no woman would have been good enough for him,but again she liked to even things out as much as possible which is why she moved Jeremy into Bourtree Cottage at the expense of a farm labourer. June was too often seen as a milch cow by her children and I don't see either of them forming a close attachment to her. Nevill was too worn out with farm work and magistrate job to take direct involvement in their upbringing but did show willing by taking Sheila's calls from London,though must have been worried and disappointed about how his children seemed to have turned out.

Offline killingeve

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NaNu, I really think you like to make life difficult :D Phew!! That's some question you've posed.

From all the word pictures painted of Sheila, other than when she kicks off, I get no impression of her as being feisty and I can't see her having word fights with June. I wonder if she used dumb insolence as a defence.

She seems to have told many people about her difficult relationship with June. Was she asking for help? You will know that I put little faith in "soundbites" but reading those you've quoted, it seems to me that by loading a small child with talk of good and evil, God and Devil, it would certainly have put the fear into her of one of the two. Does this mean she was frightened of June? Sorry, I can't do this without using my own experience which was simply that I knew from my earliest memory that whatever I did, however well I performed, it was never good enough for my mother. I also had a sense of helplessness, that I was powerless to do anything so I had to live with it. I also lived in fear that one day I would fail her so badly that she would throw me out. I often struggled but I did cope. It seems that Sheila didn't. I wonder if there was ever any semblance of closeness between Sheila and June. Did June ever experience joy and pride when she looked at Sheila. Did she ever do or say anything to make Sheila feel special?

OR might it be possible that Sheila never warmed to June? That she fought against everything required of her but bit back the words she wanted to spit at her but was too frightened to say them. I feel as confused about Sheila's relationship with June as I feel about my own relationship with my mother. I'm probably too close to this to give an objective answer.

Hi April

I will consider your post in more detail meanwhile I would just add that June appears to have been quite supportive towards SC re her modelling career as per AE's wit stats?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4226.0;attach=31194

Offline Steve_uk

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Hi Steve_uk

I was monitoring my post to observe the number of views v number of replies.  At the time of your reply my post had received 20 views and 0 replies  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Unfortunately I think adoption and the June/SC relationship are somewhat taboo topics on the forum now especially as far as Lookout and Maggie are concerned.  So much so others shy away for fear of upsetting the aforementioned.  Hey ho. 

Anyway I thank you for your post as imo this whole topic raises serious points.

To my mind my post, or rather the witness statements, CC's letter intended for NB and the excerpt from CP's book show an extremely unhealthy/dysfunctional/toxic realationship between June and SC.  However, as far as I can see this was largely overlooked at trial and there's little reference to it in the CoA doc.  And yet at trial much was made of JB's dislike of his family.

Excerpt from CoA doc re JB's 'dislike' of his family

Other evidence of the appellant's dislike of his family
116.   Other evidence was given which supported the evidence of Miss Mugford that the appellant disliked his family. Mary Mugford (Julie's mother) said the appellant had often told her that he hated his adoptive mother and he described her as quite mad.
117.   During the winter of 1984 the appellant told one of the farm workers, "I'm not going to share my money with my sister" and he had always given the impression he did not get on with Sheila Caffell.
118.   James Richards, another student from Goldsmiths College who had met the appellant through Julie Mugford, heard him talk of his parents in about February 1985. He claimed they kept him short of money and that his mother was a religious freak. He said, "I fucking hate my parents".
119.   In about March 1985, in the context of a discussion about the security at the Osea Road caravan site, the appellant told his uncle Robert Boutflour, "… I could kill anybody … I could easily kill my parents".
120.   Witnesses were called on the appellant's behalf in respect of this aspect of the case. They included a sales representative and a chartered surveyor who said they had met the appellant and his father and that they had never heard the appellant say anything nasty about his family.

Excerpt from CoA doc re SC's relationship with June (see highlighted section)

369.   In addition, there was a body of evidence from non-expert witnesses who had spoken to or been in contact with Sheila Caffell in the days immediately preceding these killings. The trial judge devoted some eight pages of his summing up to all this evidence, and summarised its effect in the following way:
"Most of them saw signs of Sheila's illness which agreed entirely with Dr Ferguson's evidence about it. None of them, at any stage, knew of any physical violence by Sheila, although on occasions when she was acutely ill - as when Freddie saw her just before she went into hospital in March - they were frightened that she might become violent. All of them agree that she was loving - very loving - and caring for her twin sons. There was evidence that she sometimes had a difficult relationship with her mother. Everyone seems to agree that she was very attached to her father, and that he was the person who had a remarkably calming effect upon her. Dr Ferguson said that in his view she treated him as her mentor - a source of help and someone who could calm her when she was in trouble. There is no evidence from anyone of her ever expressing any violence towards her parents."
 
To my mind we have comments that might have been taken out of context with JB eg "I fucking hate my parents" (I accept you may not see like this).  Yet with SC we have "There was evidence that she sometimes had a difficult relationship with her mother" which imo is somewhat of an understatement  :-\

On a separate note, virtually nothing is made of June's mental illness and stays in psychiatric hospitals '59 and '82  :-\
Maybe June experienced a feeling of hopelessness as she looked at her children,wanting to do the best by them but overcome with inadequacy at not knowing where to start. Were the adoptions out of love or to prevent rumours in village circles that the Bambers had been married almost ten years yet with no issue. Was there pressure from Pamela that June might snap out of things if she had a family to concentrate on and take care of? In any case June was in a priviliged position vis a vis many mothers in that she had au pairs and housekeepers which must have given her more freedom than the average mother. Yet she doesn't appear to be the selfish type which her charity work is testament to. June was maybe looking for a role which didn't exist,trying to please her husband,family and children yet with a position of responsibility in the village to uphold:so many balls to juggle and perceiving perhaps that others were willing her to fail as the age of deference had long since passed away..

Offline killingeve

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NN that is so unfair to say such things about me. The only thing we have disagreed on is the fact that June deserves some measure of respect, she is Jeremy's mother and she did die very violently. 
I don't know why you have singled me out this way.

Awww (((Maggie  :-*))) what's unfair?  When I have been disrespectful towards June other that stating that imo she was an unsuitable adoptive mother?  I haven't singled you out, I've pluraled you out with ya Liverpudlian mate Lookout  ;D ;D.  I think really the pair of you are the Liver Birds  ;D ;D  No, no I don't remember it my mum told me about it and I watched it on YouTube...honestly  ;)  Lookout no longer loves me either she has ignored a post I directed at her in an 'off-topic' section earlier today and a pm offering an olive branch despite our mutual love of peanut butter  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Offline Jane

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Unfortunately I think adoption and the June/SC relationship are somewhat taboo topics on the forum now especially as far as Lookout and Maggie are concerned.  So much so others shy away for fear of upsetting the aforementioned.  Hey ho. 





 
 
 
 
 
 







NaNu, I have to register with you that I take exception to the above comment, if only that whilst adoption may have come into other forum members lives, to my knowledge, you and I are the only two who know what it feels like to actually be adopted and whilst it in no way makes it taboo for others, it makes us the only two who are qualified to talk about our experiences of it. It's far more likely that members will shy away from the prospect of upsetting us, IMO :)

Offline maggie

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Awww (((Maggie  :-*))) what's unfair?  When I have been disrespectful towards June other that stating that imo she was an unsuitable adoptive mother?  I haven't singled you out, I've pluraled you out with ya Liverpudlian mate Lookout  ;D ;D.  I think really the pair of you are the Liver Birds  ;D ;D  No, no I don't remember it my mum told me about it and I watched it on YouTube...honestly  ;)  Lookout no longer loves me either she has ignored a post I directed at her in an 'off-topic' section earlier today and a pm offering an olive branch despite our mutual love of peanut butter  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
OK NN but let's just agree to disagree on that subject?  It's too close to the bone for me and I'm better not getting involved with it.   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 09:07:PM by maggie »

Offline Jane

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Maybe June experienced a feeling of hopelessness as she looked at her children,wanting to do the best by them but overcome with inadequacy at not knowing where to start. Were the adoptions out of love or to prevent rumours in village circles that the Bambers had been married almost ten years yet with no issue. Was there pressure from Pamela that June might snap out of things if she had a family to concentrate on and take care of? In any case June was in a priviliged position vis a vis many mothers in that she had au pairs and housekeepers which must have given her more freedom than the average mother. Yet she doesn't appear to be the selfish type which her charity work is testament to. June was maybe looking for a role which didn't exist,trying to please her husband,family and children yet with a position of responsibility in the village to uphold:so many balls to juggle and perceiving perhaps that others were willing her to fail as the age of deference had long since passed away..



STEVE!!!! What a remarkably insightful post :)

Offline Alias

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Personally I don´t think it is the fact that June was an adoptive mother - I think the problem is that she had some heavy mental issues and probably would have created the same sort of resentment in biological children - or could have. If she had mental issues biological children would have been equally affected.
Just my take on it.