"All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"

[Patti]

Patti, if Nevill was running downstairs in order to deflect Sheila from firing at June, his upper body wounds make sense.

Hi April

Its likely he was going downstairs or have been in a sitting position. Trouble is we can't see the bedding very well, but it looks to me as if all the blood found was on June's side, except for spatter found on the carpet.  If the police had done their job correctly at the onset they would have determined who the blood belonged to.   I know folk don't like it when the police are pulled down, but the fact is they were negligent from the beginning, no matter which way you look at it. 

[Patti]

Wasn't a metal detector used to find the missing shell/s.?

Hi Lookout

Not sure, I do believe it has been mentioned on here, but I have never read a document that a detector was found...The case shells add up, so there wasn't one missing....Its just odd that it was found upstairs and not in the kitchen. This bugs me! 

[lookout]

Hi Lookout

Not sure, I do believe it has been mentioned on here, but I have never read a document that a detector was found...The case shells add up, so there wasn't one missing....Its just odd that it was found upstairs and not in the kitchen. This bugs me! 

Hi Patti,,,I seem to remember it being mentioned some time ago. I'll have to brush up on that one,,,as I can only assume that it was used to look for spent shells.

[killingeve]

Hi NN

If you read the Mcdonnell report the blood pattern that is on the pillow, is where she lifted herself up off the pillow after being shot, The bullet went through her neck and into the pillow as she was laying.

I'm inclined to think that noise level would have been minimum in a old house like that.  Maybe Shelia went down for something to eat....One thing is for sure, I don't think a row broke out between her and her mother, because June was lying down in a sleeping position, had she woken then she might not have been in that position......

I can't see any evidence to suggest that NB was shot in his bed, but we do know he had a downward shot to his shoulder, thus being that the killer was in a higher position at the time he received that shoulder shot, this is why I believe this was done on the stairs....One case shell was found there which could back that theory up? So if that;s the case then the other three shots were fired in the master bedroom...

The only thing that bugs me, is that there were only 3 case shells found in the kitchen and he had 4 fatal shots to the head in the kitchen.  There are no missing case shells they all add up, so how did one of the case shells end up upstairs in the main bedroom.  Its been suggested that one of the raid team carried the shell under his boot....if that is the case then it surprises me that the case shell left the boot in the main bedroom and not anywhere else in the house..... I'm rambling lol

But how reliable is the Mcdonnell report he only spent a limited amount of time on it from photo evidence?  He believed JB to be responsible    Doesn't it contradict Vanezis 

Yes I agree if a shell was stuck under a boot why would it then come off in a carpeted room?  Unless it was felt and pulled out?  Can the location of shell(s) be accounted for by ricochet? 

[Jane]

Hi April

Its likely he was going downstairs or have been in a sitting position. Trouble is we can't see the bedding very well, but it looks to me as if all the blood found was on June's side, except for spatter found on the carpet.  If the police had done their job correctly at the onset they would have determined who the blood belonged to.   I know folk don't like it when the police are pulled down, but the fact is they were negligent from the beginning, no matter which way you look at it. 

Patti, in fairness, it's only with the bebefit of hindsight that theywere negligent. They believed they were looking at 4 murders and a suicide and as such there was no necessity for them to be pedantic about their findings. For a month, during which any remaining evidence was diminishing, this was the accepted version and certainly nobody attending the funeral, other than relatives, thought differently. By the time they were forced into having another look, as we know, there was very little left to look at other than spurious claims by relatives, supposition and conjecture.

[Patti]

Hi Patti,,,I seem to remember it being mentioned some time ago. I'll have to brush up on that one,,,as I can only assume that it was used to look for spent shells.

Sorry I should have said I have read that a detector was used....not found, but you understood me.  There was no shells missing all 25 were found by Hammersley.  I did a lot of work about the shots, shells and weights, but its too complicated for me...it needs more than one person to sort it all out...Hartley helped me a lot with that....Wonder where he has got too...He normally leaves then comes back after a while... :D :D :D :D

[Patti]

But how reliable is the Mcdonnell report he only spent a limited amount of time on it from photo evidence?  He believed JB to be responsible    Doesn't it contradict Vanezis 

Yes I agree if a shell was stuck under a boot why would it then come off in a carpeted room?  Unless it was felt and pulled out?  Can the location of shell(s) be accounted for by ricochet?

Well so it seems. I agree he was limited in what he had been given and was not aware of many facts surrounding the case, but he is a leading forensic scientist in the USA and an expert in blood spatter. 

The trail of blood on the pillow where June laid is where she lifted herself up after she had been shot and the bullet made an exit into the pillow...so with this information, I suspect he is right in what he has said....

I've been told that the shells come out of the right hand side of the rifle.  So if you look at the position of Sheila there is two case shells one on her left and the other on her right as you look at the photo.  By noticing that you could sort of gain the position of how the rifle was used.  This could tell you that the first shot was by using the rifle the correct way, but the 2nd shot the rifle must have been used upside down, so that the shell could eject from the right hand side of the rifle....this means that the trigger was facing the ceiling....I'm not saying that I am right, but it makes more sense when looking at the way the shells were found. 

[Patti]

Patti, in fairness, it's only with the bebefit of hindsight that theywere negligent. They believed they were looking at 4 murders and a suicide and as such there was no necessity for them to be pedantic about their findings. For a month, during which any remaining evidence was diminishing, this was the accepted version and certainly nobody attending the funeral, other than relatives, thought differently. By the time they were forced into having another look, as we know, there was very little left to look at other than spurious claims by relatives, supposition and conjecture.

I can agree April. But, knowing what we know today and how police treat a crime scene now is, very different to what it was back then I suppose.  Looking back in hindsight, they did not follow the rule of today, they took it for granted that it was murder/suicide, but even so they should have preserved the crime scene. I put it down to lessons learned by failures of yesterday. I'm not sure what rulings there were back then, but hopefully we have got it right today.... :D :D :D :D

[Jane]

I can agree April. But, knowing what we know today and how police treat a crime scene now is, very different to what it was back then I suppose.  Looking back in hindsight, they did not follow the rule of today, they took it for granted that it was murder/suicide, but even so they should have preserved the crime scene. I put it down to lessons learned by failures of yesterday. I'm not sure what rulings there were back then, but hopefully we have got it right today.... :D :D :D :D

Patti, it's only by getting it wrong that we learn to get it right.

[Patti]

Patti, it's only by getting it wrong that we learn to get it right.

So true April.  I get it wrong all the time, and have made many mistakes over and over again in my life...but hey ho....I am so glad I can't count lol 

[Patti]

But how reliable is the Mcdonnell report he only spent a limited amount of time on it from photo evidence?  He believed JB to be responsible    Doesn't it contradict Vanezis 

Yes I agree if a shell was stuck under a boot why would it then come off in a carpeted room?  Unless it was felt and pulled out?  Can the location of shell(s) be accounted for by ricochet?

I did this ages ago with help from Hartley. 

KITCHEN
DRH/41 case...under kitchen table
DRH/ 19 case...on kitchen table
DRH/20 case....under the mat, infront of sink
DRH/23 bullet.....in a plastic tray on worktop near sink unit.

LANDING

DRH/14...landing floor adjacent to the wall.

MAIN BEDROOM


DRH/13 metal strip of doorway
DRH/6 top of quit right hand side of the bed
DRH/7 under wardrobe
DRH/7 under wardrobe (note Hammersley quotes two cases found under same serial number DRH7
DRH/8 left hand side of bed 4inches from the pillow
DRH/9 Bullet found 4 inches form DRH/8 near pillow left hand side of bed
DRH/10  on the quilt right hand side of the bed on floor.
DRH/11 right hand side of bed on the floor near the wardrobe
DRH/12 on the floor right hand side of the bed
DRH/43 under the wardrobe right hand side of bed
DRH/1 right side of Sheila's body
DRH/2 Left hand side of Sheila's body
DRH/3 on the floor inside the door of the main bedroom to the left of June's body.
DRH/4 next to DRH/3
DRH/5 Bullet.

TWINS ROOM

8 cases and 1 bullet.

DRH/37 under wooden bedside cabinet
DRH/36 Bullet
DRH/38 Under right hand side of the bed at the head of the bed
DRH 39 right hand corner under right hand side of the bed
DRH/39 (note Hammersley quotes two case shells)
DRH 40 under the middle of the right hand bed
DRH/16 floor between both beds
DRH/17 On wooden cabinet between both beds
DRH18 right hand side of bed

[Lugg]

I did this ages ago with help from Hartley. 

KITCHEN
DRH/41 case...under kitchen table
DRH/ 19 case...on kitchen table
DRH/20 case....under the mat, infront of sink
DRH/23 bullet.....in a plastic tray on worktop near sink unit.

LANDING

DRH/14...landing floor adjacent to the wall.

MAIN BEDROOM


DRH/13 metal strip of doorway
DRH/6 top of quit right hand side of the bed
DRH/7 under wardrobe
DRH/7 under wardrobe (note Hammersley quotes two cases found under same serial number DRH7
DRH/8 left hand side of bed 4inches from the pillow
DRH/9 Bullet found 4 inches form DRH/8 near pillow left hand side of bed
DRH/10  on the quilt right hand side of the bed on floor.
DRH/11 right hand side of bed on the floor near the wardrobe
DRH/12 on the floor right hand side of the bed
DRH/43 under the wardrobe right hand side of bed
DRH/1 right side of Sheila's body
DRH/2 Left hand side of Sheila's body
DRH/3 on the floor inside the door of the main bedroom to the left of June's body.
DRH/4 next to DRH/3
DRH/5 Bullet.

TWINS ROOM

8 cases and 1 bullet.

DRH/37 under wooden bedside cabinet
DRH/36 Bullet
DRH/38 Under right hand side of the bed at the head of the bed
DRH 39 right hand corner under right hand side of the bed
DRH/39 (note Hammersley quotes two case shells)
DRH 40 under the middle of the right hand bed
DRH/16 floor between both beds
DRH/17 On wooden cabinet between both beds
DRH18 right hand side of bed

Why one bullet? Does this not indicate that (1) either the murderer reloaded the magazine upstairs or (2) the murderer did not reload the magazine at all. But carried the bullets around loading one at a time? Any other suggestions?

[Caroline R]

Why one bullet? Does this not indicate that (1) either the murderer reloaded the magazine upstairs or (2) the murderer did not reload the magazine at all. But carried the bullets around loading one at a time? Any other suggestions?

I was thinking the same thing!!

[Lugg]

I was thinking the same thing!!

I suppose it depends as to whether it was a bullet that had been fired. Or a whole bullet that had not been fired?

[lookout]

I'm of the opinion that the bullets were loaded one at a time,judging by the sporadic shootings,,mangled innards of the shooter and of course,the split/broken bullet.