"I didn't mean to be horrible to Jeremy.."

[Steve_uk]

But Dr Ferguson was not aware of the course her life took after she discharged herself from his care, in his opinion, too soon and he never saw her again. He said she was dificult to treat because she failed to keep follow up appointments but even so he agreed to reduce her meds by a quarter(although they were subsequently reduced by half) He wasn't present that weekend to see the effect on her when her hopes of reconciliation with Colin and family life together became shattered, nor was he present when the future of the twins was being discussed, possibly over her head, around her and maybe, because she appeared withdrawn, as if she didn't exist. That she had too much to live for was never his to say. The only person who could answer that question was Sheila and I imagine that the answer would be very different from a woman who was full of hope for a bright future, to a woman who may feel her life has been shattered.

In my opinion it's too soon from the optimism of Sheila's letter to Ann Eaton in March 1985 for her to spiral to the depths of despair when she still had Nevill as a role model and mentor,not to mention the wherewithal her parents possessed. She had her own life at the Maida Vale flat which Jeremy envied,she would entertain men but the twins always came first in any social arrangements she made. In any previous psychosis her father had always had a magical effect in soothing her and in the unlikely event that Sheila did have a relapse that Wednesday morning only hours after she talked meekly on the telephone to Auntie Pam I'm quite sure Nevill would have been able to stabilize her again.

[Jane]

But Sheila wasn't angry or vindictive-she just wasn't that kind of scheming person. She continually sought reassurance from others and for the most part got it from Nevill and her Maida Vale set. She didn't have to be the sharpest pencil in the box to know that her parents were well-off and would not see her go short.

Sheila's natural mother returned to Canada and I'm not sure there was any further contact so she wasn't really a rival to June in any way. June had managed to calm her daughter down after the incident with the electrician,and Sheila did at least say a few words to her aunt on the telephone that last night at June's behest. June anyway at this last stage in her life as it turned out was conciliatory in nature and I doubt would have roused Sheila to anger in any way.

Steve, you keep labouring the point about Sheila NOT being a schemer. When have I or ANY poster EVER suggested that she was? You keep saying she wasn't angry. How can you possibly make any kind of judgement on that which is hidden, but let's assume you're correct, that there was NO hidden anger being denied expression. That would mean that she accepted happily being sent away to school. It would have meant that she was content and compliant with living the life her mother had planned for her. It would have meant that she really wasn't bothered when her mother insisted that she terminated her pregnancy and refused to allow her a dream wedding from her home because she was ashamed of her "condition." It would have meant she was unconcerned about Colin's philandering and was quite blase about him wishing to be with someone else. I feel she had much to FEEL anger about, but if she had learned not to SHOW anger, she would have buried all those feelings until the time came when she tried to bury one feeling too many and the inner container couldn't hold it in any more. Whilst she may have presented to the world a picture of pretty, gentle, airheaded compliancy(from a woman whose biological family were academics?) I believe her inner world was in turmoil.

[Lugg]

In my opinion it's too soon from the optimism of Sheila's letter to Ann Eaton in March 1985 for her to spiral to the depths of despair when she still had Nevill as a role model and mentor,not to mention the wherewithal her parents possessed. She had her own life at the Maida Vale flat which Jeremy envied,she would entertain men but the twins always came first in any social arrangements she made. In any previous psychosis her father had always had a magical effect in soothing her and in the unlikely event that Sheila did have a relapse that Wednesday morning only hours after she talked meekly on the telephone to Auntie Pam I'm quite sure Nevill would have been able to stabilize her again.

Steve you overlook a big governing factor in all this. As Colin drove her and the kids to WHF he announced to her that their relationship was over and that he had found somebody else.
The stabilizing element in her life was not Nevill, but Colin. By stating that their relationship (which she hoped would be mended) was over could have had the effect of tipping her over the edge that night? I add the question mark because unlike you I am not so bold as to treat theories as facts.

[lookout]

Steve,the type of murders that were committed aren't premeditated,,but rather,spur of the moment,particularly if there's been a heated discussion. I would say/state,that this is what happened,as June and Sheila were already daggers drawn when it came to family matters concerning the children.

[lookout]

Steve,the type of murders that were committed aren't premeditated,,but rather,spur of the moment,particularly if there's been a heated discussion. I would say/state,that this is what happened,as June and Sheila were already daggers drawn when it came to family matters concerning the children.

[Caroline R]

In my opinion it's too soon from the optimism of Sheila's letter to Ann Eaton in March 1985 for her to spiral to the depths of despair when she still had Nevill as a role model and mentor,not to mention the wherewithal her parents possessed. She had her own life at the Maida Vale flat which Jeremy envied,she would entertain men but the twins always came first in any social arrangements she made. In any previous psychosis her father had always had a magical effect in soothing her and in the unlikely event that Sheila did have a relapse that Wednesday morning only hours after she talked meekly on the telephone to Auntie Pam I'm quite sure Nevill would have been able to stabilize her again.

In her letter to AE she was rambling about religion, joining CND etc. she was ILL!! She no longer had custody of her children, her intentions to reconcile with Colin were thwarted by his new relationship, she couldn't hold down employment and her illness was affecting her independence. Colin had a bad feeling about her being at the farm with the twins - he was afraid and his words on hearing that the twins were dead were 'she finally did it'. The word 'finally' suggests that he had thought about something similar happening before - no matter how you twist things, Sheila was very sick, her medication had been reduced and she was showing all the signs of heading for a psychotic episode.

[Steve_uk]

Steve, you keep labouring the point about Sheila NOT being a schemer. When have I or ANY poster EVER suggested that she was? You keep saying she wasn't angry. How can you possibly make any kind of judgement on that which is hidden, but let's assume you're correct, that there was NO hidden anger being denied expression. That would mean that she accepted happily being sent away to school. It would have meant that she was content and compliant with living the life her mother had planned for her. It would have meant that she really wasn't bothered when her mother insisted that she terminated her pregnancy and refused to allow her a dream wedding from her home because she was ashamed of her "condition." It would have meant she was unconcerned about Colin's philandering and was quite blase about him wishing to be with someone else. I feel she had much to FEEL anger about, but if she had learned not to SHOW anger, she would have buried all those feelings until the time came when she tried to bury one feeling too many and the inner container couldn't hold it in any more. Whilst she may have presented to the world a picture of pretty, gentle, airheaded compliancy(from a woman whose biological family were academics?) I believe her inner world was in turmoil.

But Sheila wasn't the type of person to bear a grudge. She was expelled from one school for going out of school premises after lights out;the second time she was expelled was on the last day of term with a host of other girls who got into high jinks. Sheila was a party girl who loved life and was easily led by others. She wasn't particularly aware of how she was perceived by others,but had realized by March 1985 that God loved her even if June didn't. In fact the irony was that June loved her children more than ever:they always were her darlings and the reprobation which she had exacted upon them in the past was her way of showing that she did care for them,but as time went on she began to accustom herself to the mores of her children living in the modern world.

[lookout]

As was her mother too,Caroline. I should imagine that she too was teetering on the brink.

[Steve_uk]

Steve you overlook a big governing factor in all this. As Colin drove her and the kids to WHF he announced to her that their relationship was over and that he had found somebody else.
The stabilizing element in her life was not Nevill, but Colin. By stating that their relationship (which she hoped would be mended) was over could have had the effect of tipping her over the edge that night? I add the question mark because unlike you I am not so bold as to treat theories as facts.

But Sheila had been living apart from Colin for months by this stage and they both led separate lives,though always wanting the best for the twins. In all the other cases I have read about mothers who murder their children the adults seem to be frightened that the children are going to be harmed in some way. Sheila knew what a good father Colin was and also knew she could see them whenever she wished.

[Caroline R]

Steve, you keep labouring the point about Sheila NOT being a schemer. When have I or ANY poster EVER suggested that she was? You keep saying she wasn't angry. How can you possibly make any kind of judgement on that which is hidden, but let's assume you're correct, that there was NO hidden anger being denied expression. That would mean that she accepted happily being sent away to school. It would have meant that she was content and compliant with living the life her mother had planned for her. It would have meant that she really wasn't bothered when her mother insisted that she terminated her pregnancy and refused to allow her a dream wedding from her home because she was ashamed of her "condition." It would have meant she was unconcerned about Colin's philandering and was quite blase about him wishing to be with someone else. I feel she had much to FEEL anger about, but if she had learned not to SHOW anger, she would have buried all those feelings until the time came when she tried to bury one feeling too many and the inner container couldn't hold it in any more. Whilst she may have presented to the world a picture of pretty, gentle, airheaded compliancy(from a woman whose biological family were academics?) I believe her inner world was in turmoil.

I don't believe she was angry either or that she was a schemer. Steve is considering Sheila's motives as part of some rational thought process with his constant use of words like 'revenge', 'anger' and 'schemer'. Psychosis  holds no rational thought processes and as such those words have no place when discussing her motives - whatever such motives were, they would make no sense to the rest of us.

[Steve_uk]

Steve,the type of murders that were committed aren't premeditated,,but rather,spur of the moment,particularly if there's been a heated discussion. I would say/state,that this is what happened,as June and Sheila were already daggers drawn when it came to family matters concerning the children.

Well Lianne Smith's murders were premeditated,as were Catherine Murch's who bought a gun two days previously. June was out of it as far as moralizing went and was just going through the motions of existence trying to please her children and Nevill. She also subsidized the twins through her dividend from Osea Road and had after all bought the flat for them in the first place.

[Jane]

In my opinion it's too soon from the optimism of Sheila's letter to Ann Eaton in March 1985 for her to spiral to the depths of despair when she still had Nevill as a role model and mentor,not to mention the wherewithal her parents possessed. She had her own life at the Maida Vale flat which Jeremy envied,she would entertain men but the twins always came first in any social arrangements she made. In any previous psychosis her father had always had a magical effect in soothing her and in the unlikely event that Sheila did have a relapse that Wednesday morning only hours after she talked meekly on the telephone to Auntie Pam I'm quite sure Nevill would have been able to stabilize her again.

Steve, Sheila wasn't married to Nevill. Sheila didn't want to live with Nevill. Nevill was NOT a substitute for Colin who apart from being her husband and father tio the boys was also her ticket to freedom from the restraints imposed on her by life with her parents. Sheila came out of hospital, allbeit, too soon, hugging to herself the confident thought that she and Colin would be reunited soon. For once, I'm prepared to make a sweeping statement because I feel confident that hope didn't just materialise the weekend of the party when those dreams became dashed. IMO, she didn't spiral into the depths of despair, she crashed into it over a few short days. You apply logic when you speak of Nevill as role model and mentor, and when you refer to his "wherewithal" This has absolutely NOTHING to do with logic. Do you truly believe Sheila, for those reasons, would have chosen to return to her parents and a chaste life in the country over the life she wanted and enjoyed in London. There would be no parties at WHF. There would be no lovers to wine and dine her before taking her to bed. There would be no girlfriends to gossip with. No friendly dealers to get drugs from...........and yet you still believe it isn't possible that she thought her world had collapsed.

[Steve_uk]

In her letter to AE she was rambling about religion, joining CND etc. she was ILL!! She no longer had custody of her children, her intentions to reconcile with Colin were thwarted by his new relationship, she couldn't hold down employment and her illness was affecting her independence. Colin had a bad feeling about her being at the farm with the twins - he was afraid and his words on hearing that the twins were dead were 'she finally did it'. The word 'finally' suggests that he had thought about something similar happening before - no matter how you twist things, Sheila was very sick, her medication had been reduced and she was showing all the signs of heading for a psychotic episode.

If you're told the circumstances that Colin was on the doorstep his comments are only a natural reaction,but are as valid as Jeremy claiming on Pages Lane that the raid team were responsible for the deaths. Sheila didn't mind taking a back seat in the upbringing of her children-in fact it was probably rather the reverse as it gave her more time to lie in bed and make herself look presentable for when she did go out. She might have been hard up but she must have known that she had expectations in the future as far as her parents' estate was concerned.

I have no objection to these points being raised but there seems to be very little balance in this thread of late. How about Jeremy's comment to Doris Foakes that "I'm not sharing any of my money with Sheila"-just how was he going to manage that? Why was it that on only the second occasion in eight months that the whole family was together under one roof,when at the latter occasion in December 1984 there are two people who claim that Jeremy was intent on their destruction.

[Jane]

But Sheila wasn't the type of person to bear a grudge. She was expelled from one school for going out of school premises after lights out;the second time she was expelled was on the last day of term with a host of other girls who got into high jinks. Sheila was a party girl who loved life and was easily led by others. She wasn't particularly aware of how she was perceived by others,but had realized by March 1985 that God loved her even if June didn't. In fact the irony was that June loved her children more than ever:they always were her darlings and the reprobation which she had exacted upon them in the past was her way of showing that she did care for them,but as time went on she began to accustom herself to the mores of her children living in the modern world.

Steve, what has any of this to do with Sheila's inner turmoil. It matters little how much June loved her children. What is more important is how much they felt themselves to be loved BY her.

[Steve_uk]

Steve, Sheila wasn't married to Nevill. Sheila didn't want to live with Nevill. Nevill was NOT a substitute for Colin who apart from being her husband and father tio the boys was also her ticket to freedom from the restraints imposed on her by life with her parents. Sheila came out of hospital, allbeit, too soon, hugging to herself the confident thought that she and Colin would be reunited soon. For once, I'm prepared to make a sweeping statement because I feel confident that hope didn't just materialise the weekend of the party when those dreams became dashed. IMO, she didn't spiral into the depths of despair, she crashed into it over a few short days. You apply logic when you speak of Nevill as role model and mentor, and when you refer to his "wherewithal" This has absolutely NOTHING to do with logic. Do you truly believe Sheila, for those reasons, would have chosen to return to her parents and a chaste life in the country over the life she wanted and enjoyed in London. There would be no parties at WHF. There would be no lovers to wine and dine her before taking her to bed. There would be no girlfriends to gossip with. No friendly dealers to get drugs from...........and yet you still believe it isn't possible that she thought her world had collapsed.

No I don't think her world had collapsed. Though the twins may have mentioned something about mummy and daddy living apart giving her the idea of a reconciliation I think Sheila was part of that Maida Vale set mentioned in Claire Powell's book,and though all seemed to be a little odd,unhappy and insecure Sheila to my mind didn't seem to be the worst.