"I didn't mean to be horrible to Jeremy.."

[Patti]

The majority of serial/killers are noted to be none violent and, quiet people before they kill. 

[lookout]

Morning steve uk

The reason I brought Theresa Riggi to your attention was here we have a beautiful intelligent opera singer who had become estranged from her husband who was going to fight for custody of the two 8 year twin boys and a 5 year daughter.  Do you think he or members of the family envisaged what she was capable of doing to keep these children.  She would have shown no outward signs but in her head was a ticking timebomb waiting to go off and it did and resulted in a dreadful death of each of them being stabbed each 8 times we three separate kitchen knives.  If an unstable Mother has a thought her children are going to be taken away from her she will keep them safe as she thinks by killing them.She tried to take her own life by stabbing herself then throwing herself off the balcony but was unsuccessful as somebody broke her fall.  She was severely injured but is now serving 16 years in prison.  I have researched the deaths of children and have yet to find one where small children are murdered for an inheritance.

Good morning Susan.Brilliant post indeed.    I don't believe that the killings were for monetary gain,,I never have. It was a " domestic " to end all domestics,about the futures of the children.

[Lugg]

The majority of serial/killers are noted to be none violent and, quiet people before they kill. 

I murdered a bowl of Weetabix this morning and I was quiet.

[lookout]

I murdered a bowl of Weetabix this morning and I was quiet.

And I always have my oats in the morning,which keeps me quiet for a couple of hours.

[Lugg]

And I always have my oats in the morning,which keeps me quiet for a couple of hours.

Are we not both cereal killers then?

[lookout]

Are we not both cereal killers then?

I suppose we are,Lugg. Even though it upset me once when my daughter was bashing a redback with a brush.

[Lugg]

I suppose we are,Lugg. Even though it upset me once when my daughter was bashing a redback with a brush.

Not in this country I hope?

[lookout]

Not in this country I hope?

No,Lugg,thank God. It was inches from my behind as I sat on her step.

[Steve_uk]

From what I can make of cases where mothers have killed their children there has been an element of premeditation(Theresa Riggi called her husband to let him know his children were about to die by her hand,Lianne Smith took her children to Lloret de Mar for a last holiday before smothering them with a plastic bag),the only time I can ever recall a gun being involved was Catherine Murch who had bought a gun two days previously. Jeremy's story about June wanting the twins adopted or taken away from Sheila is so obvious a lie,as Colin knew and said instinctively that first morning in Goldhanger,as I suspect the story was about Sheila having to use a NHS hospital after any subsequent breakdown. June was at this stage in her life not set for any confrontation and would not have mentioned it. I find it difficult to envisage Nevill confronting his daughter with any of this as it was out of character with the man who spent hours reassuring her on the telephone that things would work out for her.

Of course I'm not saying Sheila wasn't a concern for her parents-of course she was. But you have to weigh the odds of an incident happening to all five family members staying under the same roof that August for the first time since Christmas 1984,when we know from Charles Marsden that Jeremy had speculated out loud to him that if the farm burned down during that period then everything would be his.

[susan]

steve Theresa Riggi did not ring her husband and tell him his children were going to die at all.  A Court case was going on for him to get custody of the children and after she spoke on the phone to him she said well say Good Bye to your children.  Then she disappeared from Aberdeen to Edinburgh and killed her children it was not premeditated as you say had she been confident she would be granted full custody she would not have killed her children I am sure of that she loved them too much.  After she was arrested she would have killed him had she had the chance as she had to take her children away from evil,  Now she is in a secure mental unit for at least 16 years but she woud prefer to be dead with her babies. You don't know that Lianne Smith took her children to Lloret for a last holiday you are not able to read into people's minds had she planned to kill her children she would have just done it in any country.  Neither do you know that it was a lie about June wanting the twins adopted neither do I know if it was the truth.  We have to have an open mind about certain matters and not just grasp at anything that fits our theories.

[Jane]

Good Morning Steve. That's one hugely sweeping statement you've made there, isn't it? Unless you can furnish us with concrete proof that she hadn't, over the years, internalized and surpressed anger and resentment, your assertion cannot be held as fact.

Unlike yourself, I make no hard and fast claims about the way her mind worked, but I DO know what the likelihoods may be. We can't know how she felt about being sent away to school, but as she managed to get herself expelled twice(?) we can make a guess that she wasn't happy. We can't know how she truly felt about being adopted. Might she, as she lurched from failure to failure have concluded that her life would have turned out better if she hadn't been adopted. Having recently met her biological mother for the first time, did she get a glimpse of how her life could have been with a more understanding, tolerant mother. Suppose she had held June responsible for the murder of her unborn child and is now beginning to see a plan afoot to remove the twins from her. How angry MIGHT she have been with Colin for wanting to make a life with another woman.

That last weekend, there WAS enough going on in her life to cause her to explode, without taking the background occurances into account AND without giving consideration to her fragile mental health. You constantly tell us she was more likely to selfharm than harm. This MAY have been a way of subverting internalized anger away from those she held responsible. Selfharmers will speak of the relief they feel afterwards. It's my belief that they would rather hurt the person responsible for causing the pain. It MAY be, that with the onset of psychosis, that this is exactly what she did.

Good Afternoon Steve, I wonder if you missed the above or if you chose not to respond. The opinions I hold are based on knowledge of how the emotions work and not how I make them work to fit in with my own theories.

[Steve_uk]

steve Theresa Riggi did not ring her husband and tell him his children were going to die at all.  A Court case was going on for him to get custody of the children and after she spoke on the phone to him she said well say Good Bye to your children.  Then she disappeared from Aberdeen to Edinburgh and killed her children it was not premeditated as you say had she been confident she would be granted full custody she would not have killed her children I am sure of that she loved them too much.  After she was arrested she would have killed him had she had the chance as she had to take her children away from evil,  Now she is in a secure mental unit for at least 16 years but she woud prefer to be dead with her babies. You don't know that Lianne Smith took her children to Lloret for a last holiday you are not able to read into people's minds had she planned to kill her children she would have just done it in any country.  Neither do you know that it was a lie about June wanting the twins adopted neither do I know if it was the truth.  We have to have an open mind about certain matters and not just grasp at anything that fits our theories.

Lianne Smith had planned the deaths according to the judge in the case:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2168193/Lianne-Smith-jailed-30-years-murdering-baby-son-sister-Spanish-hotel-room.html

You may be right about Theresa Riggi,but there's no comparison in my view to Sheila Caffell,who either had custody of the children or joint custody with Colin and was happy with the arrangement she had with him. In a letter to Ann Eaton in March 1985 from St. Andrews' Sheila tells her how much she is missing the twins. In the view of Dr. Hugh Ferguson she would not have harmed the twins and would not have committed suicide as she had too much to live for.

[susan]

steve you are putting words into my posts again where have you ever seen me say that Sheila killed her children.  I have not.  I do not know who killed the children I was pointing out to you that Mothers who appear "normal" do kill their children.  I also pointed out it is very rare that young children are killed for an inheritance.

[Steve_uk]

Good Afternoon Steve, I wonder if you missed the above or if you chose not to respond. The opinions I hold are based on knowledge of how the emotions work and not how I make them work to fit in with my own theories.

But Sheila wasn't angry or vindictive-she just wasn't that kind of scheming person. She continually sought reassurance from others and for the most part got it from Nevill and her Maida Vale set. She didn't have to be the sharpest pencil in the box to know that her parents were well-off and would not see her go short.

Sheila's natural mother returned to Canada and I'm not sure there was any further contact so she wasn't really a rival to June in any way. June had managed to calm her daughter down after the incident with the electrician,and Sheila did at least say a few words to her aunt on the telephone that last night at June's behest. June anyway at this last stage in her life as it turned out was conciliatory in nature and I doubt would have roused Sheila to anger in any way.

[Jane]

Lianne Smith had planned the deaths according to the judge in the case:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2168193/Lianne-Smith-jailed-30-years-murdering-baby-son-sister-Spanish-hotel-room.html

You may be right about Theresa Riggi,but there's no comparison in my view to Sheila Caffell,who either had custody of the children or joint custody with Colin and was happy with the arrangement she had with him. In a letter to Ann Eaton in March 1985 from St. Andrews' Sheila tells her how much she is missing the twins. In the view of Dr. Hugh Ferguson she would not have harmed the twins and would not have committed suicide as she had too much to live for.

But Dr Ferguson was not aware of the course her life took after she discharged herself from his care, in his opinion, too soon and he never saw her again. He said she was dificult to treat because she failed to keep follow up appointments but even so he agreed to reduce her meds by a quarter(although they were subsequently reduced by half) He wasn't present that weekend to see the effect on her when her hopes of reconciliation with Colin and family life together became shattered, nor was he present when the future of the twins was being discussed, possibly over her head, around her and maybe, because she appeared withdrawn, as if she didn't exist. That she had too much to live for was never his to say. The only person who could answer that question was Sheila and I imagine that the answer would be very different from a woman who was full of hope for a bright future, to a woman who may feel her life has been shattered.