Author Topic: Mark Bridger / April Jones dissapearance  (Read 40067 times)

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Offline Annie

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Re: Mark Bridger / April Jones dissapearance
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2012, 11:49:PM »
Steph, Patti is sound. 100%. There must be some crossed wires here?

Roch ... FreeSimonHall did not say that Patti was not sound.

All she did was gave her opinion on a thread using her first hand knowledge of how the police, cps etc work and was basically told to get off the thread!! Does her opinion not count?
~ most people achieved their greatest success one step beyond what looked like their greatest failure ~ many of life's failures are men who didn't realise how close they were to success when they gave up ~

Offline Roch

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Re: Mark Bridger / April Jones dissapearance
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2012, 12:08:AM »
Roch ... FreeSimonHall did not say that Patti was not sound.

All she did was gave her opinion on a thread using her first hand knowledge of how the police, cps etc work and was basically told to get off the thread!! Does her opinion not count?

Steph's opinion does of course count.  And she has first hand experience of the justice system.  I do recognise that. I'm not one to lecture anyone here, because I've had recent spats on here my self.  I think it comes down to the way that posters phrase their challenges. 
« Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 12:09:AM by Roch »

Offline Roch

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Re: Mark Bridger / April Jones dissapearance
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2012, 12:14:AM »
Is Patti ok David?

Steph I think that most posters prefer to have 'nice' disputes. It's only the likes of me and you who get a bit firey these days.

Offline lookout

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Re: Mark Bridger / April Jones dissapearance
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2012, 10:15:AM »
That's the point, I wasn't 'crossing swords' I was merely giving my opinion. I don't profess to know it all, I don't.

But I do know that the defence before or during trial, do not examine all the evidence, as half the time - maybe more than half, the defence are not given the evidence to examine. Regardless of what 'Petey' says...

Quite right,Steph,the defence don't read everything put before them. It's only when you speak from experience that you know these things.

Offline lookout

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Re: Mark Bridger / April Jones dissapearance
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2012, 05:39:PM »
Attempted abduction of a 9 year old boy,75 miles from where April vanished. It was a white van.
This is latest news.

Offline OnceSaid

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Re: Mark Bridger / April Jones dissapearance
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2012, 11:52:PM »
Attempted abduction of a 9 year old boy,75 miles from where April vanished. It was a white van.
This is latest news.

In an article I read the police are saying it is unrelated to April's abduction/murder, but how the hell do they know that?  I do think that because a man is on remand in prison for the abduction and murder of April Jones that the public may have let their guard down.  I think that until the public have something more concrete to convince them that the police have got their man, then they should keep a beady eye on the kids, better to be safe than sorry.

There is very little being reported about April's disappearance and the search.  The last I read was about people getting tattoos done, surely that can't be all that there is to report?

Offline sandra L

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Re: Mark Bridger / April Jones dissapearance
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2012, 12:20:PM »
Just catching up using a friend's internet connection (mine's still out!)

Re the jury discussion, as others have pointed out, juries are required to come to their decisions based on the information before them. As I see it, there are a number of problems with that.

Firstly, all of the evidence before them is not all of the evidence that could have been before them - pieces of information are selected and shaped for their legal utility, not necessarily for the weight they might lend to the truth of matters.

Take Sean toal's case, for example - the murder weapon was excluded, by experts, as the murder weapon at trial. Other evidence linking the victim and someone who was not Sean was not disclosed due to an "oversight" - there, staight away, are two pieces of "evidence" which were not before the jury. Obviously, jurors can't make decisions based on stuff they've never heard or seen.

By "legal utility" of evidence, I mean evidence which is selected because it fits with the internal logic of the legal case - in this case, the prosecution had to prove that the murder was linked, by "strong enough" evidence to convince the jury, to Sean Toal and a knife. By removing the other possibilities, the only information left was the presence of Sean at the scene, the admission that he had fought with the victim, and the presence of a knife - the jury was not told that the knife that was left in the equation was not forensically linked to the murder.

Next, there's the "spin" put on evidence, especially expert evidence, which is (in my opinion) designed not only to confuse jurors, but to lead them in particular directions, even though the actual evidence itself doesn't support such directions - Simon Hall and John Taft were both convicted on the basis of fibre evidence, which was presented to the juries in terms of "microscopically indistinguishable." It wasn't explained to either jury that the term is actually prety meaningless - the fibres may have been "microscopically indistinguishable" to items of clothing claimed to have belonged to Simon or John (although, bizarrely, in both cases, they couldn't actually come up with items of clothing belonging to either man which shed the same fibres), but the same would be true of any item of clothing, belonging to any person, which shed the same fibres.

Then there's the ultra confusing directions to the jury - I've sometimes had to read and re-read judges directions several times to figure out exactly what it is the jury is being told - the jury only gets that once, orally, but are then assumed to have both understood and applied what they have been told.

It's too simplistic (and pretty unfair, in my opinion) to suggest that jurors are too lazy, dim or disinterested to properly assess the information before them.

Back to the April Jones situation - the other abduction is extremely worrying. Coming to the conlusion that the two abductions are "not related" (especially when, if I remember correctly, there was a similar attempted abduction just before April disappeared) would seem, at the very least, premature, and can only be on the basis that they have MB in custody - they can't be related via him would be a more truthful conclusion, imo. But, of course, if MB did not abduct April, then of course it's possible that this other attempted abduction is related, as could the previous attempt have been.

There are so many concerns in this case, it's difficult to list them all, but, like others on here, I have real reservations about the way the whole thing played out - the changing vehicle colour (and description), the focus on such a small search area (for a vehicle related abduction, that seemed absurd to me), the instant focus on one person, and apparently one person only... I sincerely hope April is found soon, for her family's sake - the not knowing must be horrific.

Offline Roch

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Re: Mark Bridger / April Jones dissapearance
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2012, 01:10:PM »
The evidence before them is not all of the evidence that could have been before them - pieces of information are selected and shaped for their legal utility, not necessarily for the weight they might lend to the truth of matters.

An apt description of a widely held concern.

Offline Patti

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Re: Mark Bridger / April Jones dissapearance
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2012, 06:31:PM »
Just catching up using a friend's internet connection (mine's still out!)

Re the jury discussion, as others have pointed out, juries are required to come to their decisions based on the information before them. As I see it, there are a number of problems with that.

Firstly, all of the evidence before them is not all of the evidence that could have been before them - pieces of information are selected and shaped for their legal utility, not necessarily for the weight they might lend to the truth of matters.

Take Sean toal's case, for example - the murder weapon was excluded, by experts, as the murder weapon at trial. Other evidence linking the victim and someone who was not Sean was not disclosed due to an "oversight" - there, staight away, are two pieces of "evidence" which were not before the jury. Obviously, jurors can't make decisions based on stuff they've never heard or seen.

By "legal utility" of evidence, I mean evidence which is selected because it fits with the internal logic of the legal case - in this case, the prosecution had to prove that the murder was linked, by "strong enough" evidence to convince the jury, to Sean Toal and a knife. By removing the other possibilities, the only information left was the presence of Sean at the scene, the admission that he had fought with the victim, and the presence of a knife - the jury was not told that the knife that was left in the equation was not forensically linked to the murder.

Next, there's the "spin" put on evidence, especially expert evidence, which is (in my opinion) designed not only to confuse jurors, but to lead them in particular directions, even though the actual evidence itself doesn't support such directions - Simon Hall and John Taft were both convicted on the basis of fibre evidence, which was presented to the juries in terms of "microscopically indistinguishable." It wasn't explained to either jury that the term is actually prety meaningless - the fibres may have been "microscopically indistinguishable" to items of clothing claimed to have belonged to Simon or John (although, bizarrely, in both cases, they couldn't actually come up with items of clothing belonging to either man which shed the same fibres), but the same would be true of any item of clothing, belonging to any person, which shed the same fibres.

Then there's the ultra confusing directions to the jury - I've sometimes had to read and re-read judges directions several times to figure out exactly what it is the jury is being told - the jury only gets that once, orally, but are then assumed to have both understood and applied what they have been told.

It's too simplistic (and pretty unfair, in my opinion) to suggest that jurors are too lazy, dim or disinterested to properly assess the information before them.

Back to the April Jones situation - the other abduction is extremely worrying. Coming to the conlusion that the two abductions are "not related" (especially when, if I remember correctly, there was a similar attempted abduction just before April disappeared) would seem, at the very least, premature, and can only be on the basis that they have MB in custody - they can't be related via him would be a more truthful conclusion, imo. But, of course, if MB did not abduct April, then of course it's possible that this other attempted abduction is related, as could the previous attempt have been.

There are so many concerns in this case, it's difficult to list them all, but, like others on here, I have real reservations about the way the whole thing played out - the changing vehicle colour (and description), the focus on such a small search area (for a vehicle related abduction, that seemed absurd to me), the instant focus on one person, and apparently one person only... I sincerely hope April is found soon, for her family's sake - the not knowing must be horrific.


Excellent post Sandra in all respects and, one I have thoroughly enjoyed reading.   I just want to add that the jurors can re-examine at any time evidence presented in court and, are free to talk about the case at length, before a final decision is made.  However, they can only deliver a decision based on what they told.  If evidence is withheld then a jury becomes blind and falsely led.   :) :) :)

Offline Patti

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Re: Mark Bridger / April Jones dissapearance
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2012, 09:43:PM »
They are scaling back the search for April.   ;)

Offline OnceSaid

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Re: Mark Bridger / April Jones dissapearance
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2012, 10:50:PM »
They are scaling back the search for April.   ;)

I think that is understandable to be honest.  I had really hoped that April would have been found one way or another, and brought home to her family by now.  The search teams have done an amazing job but to date their efforts have all been in vain, but nevertheless, I don't think they could have tried any harder than they have done.

Offline Patti

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Re: Mark Bridger / April Jones dissapearance
« Reply #56 on: November 18, 2012, 11:14:PM »
I think that is understandable to be honest.  I had really hoped that April would have been found one way or another, and brought home to her family by now.  The search teams have done an amazing job but to date their efforts have all been in vain, but nevertheless, I don't think they could have tried any harder than they have done.

I totally agree with you OnceSaid.  I think the search has been precedented one.  I remain hopeful that something will be found....if only to give April's family some closure.  It must be an horrendous time for them and all concerned. 

Offline big-goolies

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Re: Mark Bridger / April Jones dissapearance
« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2012, 11:27:PM »
i think its possible that he threw Aprils body in the river where most of the search was conducted and if i remember there had been a lot of flood water in the river at that time... could be the remains were washed out to see and may never be found

Offline Patti

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Re: Mark Bridger / April Jones dissapearance
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2012, 11:31:PM »
I think that is where the police concentrated their search.  Yes it may be possible due to heavy rain/flooding  .....I can't say what I want to say it feels so damn cruel....Yes, I think you might be right.  sorry.

Offline big-goolies

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Re: Mark Bridger / April Jones dissapearance
« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2012, 11:34:PM »
its something i wouldnt want to admit is the end for that sweet little girl but its seem the most plausible