The RIDDLE of the BACK STAIRCASE.

[mike tesko]

The explanation being banded about where PC Collins says he mistakenly identified Ralphs body in the kitchen for that of a dead female, simply does not hold water, for a number of different reasons, including the fact that with Ralphs body sat upright on the large wooden chair behind the internal kitchen door (before police toppled his body over onto the floor) PC Collins or anybody else would have been hard pressed to be able to see that position from the vantage point of outside the kitchen window. Furthermore, how does this fit in with two futher radio messages, one timed at 3;38am 'one dead male, one dead female', and another message timed at 7:42am, "can somebody contact the police surgeon regarding two bodies", which kind of makes complete nonsense of PC Collins explantion about mistaking one body for another, a dead male for a dead female, but most importantly, the fact that by 7:45am, police at the scene were passing additional information from the scene that one of the two bodies was being treated as a murder, whilst the second body spoken of as being a suicide...

[mike tesko]

Thanks Mike, it is a bit confusing to say the least, so Sheila when first seen would have been in the kitchen with Ralph, blocked in by his body being on the chair in front of the door at the back of the kitchen which police had to push out of the way to enter. 
She therefore wasn't probably locked in the back part of the house with the spiral staircase and the gun cupboard as has been suggested....is that right?

I don't like to say that Ralph and Sheila were found in the same part of the kitchen because it sounds a bit complicated, and you could end up falling into the trap of half believing PC Collins explantion about him mistakenly identifying Ralphs body for that of a dead female...

I think Sheila's body was first spotted by PC Collins just inside the pantry door (which was/is part of the kitchen), and that PC Collins did not see Ralph Bambers body at all by that stage. What I understand to have happened is that once PC Collins saw Sheila's body in the pantry through the kitchen window, PC Collins followed the other firearms officers into the premises. It was not until that stage that PC Collins realised there was another body behind the door, the body of Ralph Bamber. This is what lies behind the content of the first radio message, and explains how at 7:37am police discovered the body of Ralph Bamber, followed by the discovery of Sheila's body in the pantry part of the kitchen. Ralphs body described at some point before 7:45am as a murder, and Sheila's body in the pantry, descibed as a suicide...

[maggie]

Thankyou Mike

[mike tesko]

The radio log messages and other messages passed between the firearms team at the scene and the control room, and elsewhere between the control room and SOCO/police surgeon/coroners officer, during nine intense minutes (7:37 - 7:45am) deal with those first frantic moments when the raid team first came upon the dead male, the dead female, a murder and a suicide, Ralph Bamber and Sheila Caffell - and all this discovered and documented before the last seconds of the minute finger of the control room clock read 7:45...

[mike tesko]

The radio log messages and other messages passed between the firearms team at the scene and the control room, and elsewhere between the control room and SOCO/police surgeon/coroners officer, during nine intense minutes (7:37 - 7:45am) deal with those first frantic moments when the raid team first came upon the dead male, the dead female, a murder and a suicide, Ralph Bamber and Sheila Caffell - and all this discovered and documented before the last seconds of the minute finger of the control room clock read 7:45...

Or...

Was that by 7:35am, or 7:55am?

[mike tesko]

By 8:10am, the bodies of the other three victims (June, and her two grandchildren) were found upstairs...

[mike tesko]

By 8:10am, the bodies of the other three victims (June, and her two grandchildren) were found upstairs...

Clear evidence that by 8:10am, two bodies found downstairs, and three further bodies upstairs - with no prospect at all of Sheila's body being on the bed in the main bedroom, or on the bedroom floor, where PC Bird later photographed it...

[lookout]

By 8:10am, the bodies of the other three victims (June, and her two grandchildren) were found upstairs...

And no sign of rigor on Sheila. You don't try and put someone in the recovery position when they've got rigor mortis,,, as per peoples' assumptions pointing to Sheila having been dead for hours. No way.

[Roch]

IMO, it's not credible to suggest that in 38 minutes, the wrong sexing, counting and locating of bodies could not and would not have been clarified.

[mike tesko]

IMO, it's not credible to suggest that in 38 minutes, the wrong sexing, counting and locating of bodies could not and would not have been clarified.

38 minutes of madness, which turned into another 185 minutes of pure bedlam...

[HMEssex]

IMO, it's not credible to suggest that in 38 minutes, the wrong sexing, counting and locating of bodies could not and would not have been clarified.

Especially as they were both 'sans culottes'.

[guest154]

Despite Campion's ascerbic digs at certain forum members, I cannot see how it is accpetable to label him as a 'nutter'.  That's out of order.  Forum members can of course defend themselves within reason.

I used the word nutter in this topic, so I guess this post is meant to me. I wasn't calling Campion a nutter - I udnerstand how maybe it could have looked like I was but my respons was a continuation of Hartley's.

But as for campions 'digs' at members - not only have I seen this too but I came under fire of it yesterday. But three people have now told me that Campion is an offline friend of Grahame  (apparently they spoke about this when Campion joined the forum. ) which now makes it clearer as to why Campion spoke to me as he did in the topic yesterday.

[Bridget]

And no sign of rigor on Sheila. You don't try and put someone in the recovery position when they've got rigor mortis,,, as per peoples' assumptions pointing to Sheila having been dead for hours. No way.

You can't tell from a photo whether or not there is rigour, and no one put her in the recovery position.

[Buddy]

And no sign of rigor on Sheila. You don't try and put someone in the recovery position when they've got rigor mortis,,, as per peoples' assumptions pointing to Sheila having been dead for hours. No way.

I may of missed something here. Who said Sheila was put in the recovery position? She was flat on her back.
The pathologist records all bodies to be in advanced state of rigor mortis.
I still believe that Sheila died where she was found. I find it difficult to understand if Sheila had fled upstairs why no blood had dripped onto the front of her nightie. Of course she could have staunched the flow with her hand.
When it was reported one dead male, and one dead female found on entry no mention was made of any firearm about her person. This being the case how did the rifle get upstairs?
Also to bear in mind the pathologist said the first wound was non fatal, and Sheila would have lived some minutes, even though her jugular vein had been lacerated. Taking into account the time of entry by the raid to gaining access to the upper floor, Sheila would have bled to death before she could have got upstairs.
I guess that just leaves Jeremy, or a third party, although Jeremy has never mentioned a third party insisting it was Sheila.

[susan]

Hi Mat  I have no idea whether Campion and Grahame are friends.  The only point I was making that any dealings I have had with Campion he has been so full of information and humourous and I would think the knowledge he has on the Jeremy Bamber case is extensive when I made the post in response to Roch I did not know it was you who referred to Campion as a nutter.