Did Sheila Suffer An Attachment Disorder Resulting In Affectionless Psychopathy?

[Steve_uk]

I was of the opinion that the likelihood of SC suffering an attachment disorder was high given June's mental illness circa '59 and possible unintentional neglect leading up to this.  My view on this has been reinforced further by the recent knowledge that SC spent time in a nursery in between leaving her birth mother and arriving with her adoptive mother. 

I read an article in The Times on Sun by psychotherapist Benjamin Fry re his mental health issues which he believes stem from the loss of his mother at 11 months old.  SC suffered the loss of at least 4 primary care givers over the first 2/3 years of her life.

http://www.benjaminfry.co.uk/pdf/timesarticle.pdf

I'm utterly convinced the answer to the tragedy at WHF is here.

It's interesting and one would like to know more about Sheila's early years,but I also find it telling that Benjamin Fry coped fine until his investments began to collapse in 2008. You can read more about his story here:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you/article-2376132/TV-psychotherapist-Benjamin-Fry-devastated-depression-Then-discovered-radical-new-treatment.html I know Sheila was sometimes hard up in Moreshead Mansions,but she knew that her parents were worth a bob or two to say the least, she rejected June's offer of an antiques shop in Essex presumably because the alternative of remaining in London was more attractive,Nevill acted as an unofficial counsellor answering his daughter's hour-long telephone calls and as Dr Ferguson said he didn't think Sheila was a suicide risk because "she had too much to live for". So Colin had moved on..well okay but wasn't the purpose of that Maida Vale set to hook a rich man and settle down in a life of luxury.. are you sure Sheila had given up on this? She could see her children whenever she wanted,she didn't ever come across as a vindictive person to me,more a hapless victim if anything.

[tyler]

I doubt poor Sheila felt she had "everything to live for"! She had no job,no cash,had lost her husband and effectively her children. She had an extreme dislike for her "overbearing" mother,had recently met with her natural mother,who had pretty much rejected her by telling her that her husband and children did not and would not know of Sheila's existence..and to top it all she was losing her mind! I'm not surprised she took some solace in drug taking,poor woman!

[killingeve]

I was of the opinion that the likelihood of SC suffering an attachment disorder was high given June's mental illness circa '59 and possible unintentional neglect leading up to this.  My view on this has been reinforced further by the recent knowledge that SC spent time in a nursery in between leaving her birth mother and arriving with her adoptive mother. 

I read an article in The Times on Sun by psychotherapist Benjamin Fry re his mental health issues which he believes stem from the loss of his mother at 11 months old.  SC suffered the loss of at least 4 primary care givers over the first 2/3 years of her life.

http://www.benjaminfry.co.uk/pdf/timesarticle.pdf
I'm utterly convinced the answer to the tragedy at WHF is here.

Morning NN

When I retrieved the above link I thought the cover looked different from the supplement read on the w.e.  Plus I was surprised I was able to upload the link given that The Times is now behind a pay wall but it seems it relates to 2011.  The Times obviously do repeats.

[killingeve]

It's interesting and one would like to know more about Sheila's early years,but I also find it telling that Benjamin Fry coped fine until his investments began to collapse in 2008. You can read more about his story here:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you/article-2376132/TV-psychotherapist-Benjamin-Fry-devastated-depression-Then-discovered-radical-new-treatment.html I know Sheila was sometimes hard up in Moreshead Mansions,but she knew that her parents were worth a bob or two to say the least, she rejected June's offer of an antiques shop in Essex presumably because the alternative of remaining in London was more attractive,Nevill acted as an unofficial counsellor answering his daughter's hour-long telephone calls and as Dr Ferguson said he didn't think Sheila was a suicide risk because "she had too much to live for". So Colin had moved on..well okay but wasn't the purpose of that Maida Vale set to hook a rich man and settle down in a life of luxury.. are you sure Sheila had given up on this? She could see her children whenever she wanted,she didn't ever come across as a vindictive person to me,more a hapless victim if anything

Morning Steve_uk

The Benjamin Fry article I read was actually from Sun gone and not the above which is from 2011.  I will endeavour to upload from last week.  However having scanned 2011 they're very similar.  He believes the bad investments were the catalyst not the cause.  We have no idea of the impact SC's reunion with her birth mother (bm) had on her.  SC was able to trace and contact her bm upon reaching 18 yoa.  She met her bm shortly before reaching 28 yoa and only weeks prior to the tragedy imo this is no coincidence.

All the points you raise do not deal with SC's underlying emotional state and psychological trauma caused by at least 4 primary care givers during the first 2/3 yrs of her life. 

Birth mother to

Nursery - likely to be multiple care givers not one-on-one to

June - suffers depression requiring in-patient psychiatric care as a result of her decision to adopt.  Quality of care likely to be poor possible neglect highly likely to

A. N. Other whilst June in hospital to

June - By now damage is done.  Deep psychological and emotional trauma.  Biology changed.  All reflected in SC's life: poor academic/work record, short marriage, difficulties parenting children, drug taking, mental illness, low self-esteem, depression, thoughts of suicide.

[killingeve]

It's interesting and one would like to know more about Sheila's early years,but I also find it telling that Benjamin Fry coped fine until his investments began to collapse in 2008. You can read more about his story here:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you/article-2376132/TV-psychotherapist-Benjamin-Fry-devastated-depression-Then-discovered-radical-new-treatment.html I know Sheila was sometimes hard up in Moreshead Mansions,but she knew that her parents were worth a bob or two to say the least, she rejected June's offer of an antiques shop in Essex presumably because the alternative of remaining in London was more attractive,Nevill acted as an unofficial counsellor answering his daughter's hour-long telephone calls and as Dr Ferguson said he didn't think Sheila was a suicide risk because "she had too much to live for". So Colin had moved on..well okay but wasn't the purpose of that Maida Vale set to hook a rich man and settle down in a life of luxury.. are you sure Sheila had given up on this? She could see her children whenever she wanted,she didn't ever come across as a vindictive person to me,more a hapless victim if anything.

You choose to view Dr F as a credible expert witness - I don't.  I feel sure in the not too distant future he will be tarred with the same brush as Prof Roy Meadows.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2310.msg69862.html#msg69862

[killingeve]

I doubt poor Sheila felt she had "everything to live for"! She had no job,no cash,had lost her husband and effectively her children. She had an extreme dislike for her "overbearing" mother,had recently met with her natural mother,who had pretty much rejected her by telling her that her husband and children did not and would not know of Sheila's existence..and to top it all she was losing her mind! I'm not surprised she took some solace in drug taking,poor woman!

Morning Tyler

Yes agreed.  I'm afraid it was all just an accident waiting to happen and the availability of firearms at WHF made it all possible 

[tyler]

Hi NN. Where did the info come from that June suffered depression from her decision to adopt Sheila? In Wilkes book he says that June had a cyst removed from an ovary in the year following Sheila's adoption and was told she would never be able to bear children of her own. This is allegedly what caused June's depression resulting in a hospital stay and ECT treatment. Upon her return from hospital June talked Neville into agreeing to adopt another child. I had always thought that the ovary operation ect was BEFORE adoption of Sheila,but not according to Wilkes.

[Jane]

Hi NN. Where did the info come from that June suffered depression from her decision to adopt Sheila? In Wilkes book he says that June had a cyst removed from an ovary in the year following Sheila's adoption and was told she would never be able to bear children of her own. This is allegedly what caused June's depression resulting in a hospital stay and ECT treatment. Upon her return from hospital June talked Neville into agreeing to adopt another child. I had always thought that the ovary operation ect was BEFORE adoption of Sheila,but not according to Wilkes.

Tyler HI NN seems to have left the room! My own take is that this info was in Dr F's statement. I thought it an odd thing for a psychiatrist to say, partly because he said nothing to back it up. Like you, I'd believed that the ovarian problem came BEFORE the adoptions.

[tyler]

Tyler HI NN seems to have left the room! My own take is that this info was in Dr F's statement. I thought it an odd thing for a psychiatrist to say, partly because he said nothing to back it up. Like you, I'd believed that the ovarian problem came BEFORE the adoptions.

Hi April  I was thinking that the info probably did come from Dr F. However,NN doesn't give much credence to anything said by Dr.F and I don't blame her! Not if he could state that Sheila 'had everything to live for'!

[killingeve]

Hi NN. Where did the info come from that June suffered depression from her decision to adopt Sheila? In Wilkes book he says that June had a cyst removed from an ovary in the year following Sheila's adoption and was told she would never be able to bear children of her own. This is allegedly what caused June's depression resulting in a hospital stay and ECT treatment. Upon her return from hospital June talked Neville into agreeing to adopt another child. I had always thought that the ovary operation ect was BEFORE adoption of Sheila,but not according to Wilkes.

Hi Tyler

Yes I've read Wilkes too and he appears to contradict Dr F.  Dr F states:

"I also treated Sheila's adopted mother, Mrs June BAMBER at St Andrews Hospital, Northants.  I can say that June after suffering a long period of childlessness was examined and eventually an ovarian cyst was removed.  She made a decision to adopt and having done this suffered severe depressions.  This was around 1958.  She required E.C.T. as an inpatient and made a full recovery".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1201.0;attach=6197

[Steve_uk]

Morning Steve_uk

The Benjamin Fry article I read was actually from Sun gone and not the above which is from 2011.  I will endeavour to upload from last week.  However having scanned 2011 they're very similar.  He believes the bad investments were the catalyst not the cause.  We have no idea of the impact SC's reunion with her birth mother (bm) had on her.  SC was able to trace and contact her bm upon reaching 18 yoa.  She met her bm shortly before reaching 28 yoa and only weeks prior to the tragedy imo this is no coincidence.

All the points you raise do not deal with SC's underlying emotional state and psychological trauma caused by at least 4 primary care givers during the first 2/3 yrs of her life. 

Birth mother to

Nursery - likely to be multiple care givers not one-on-one to

June - suffers depression requiring in-patient psychiatric care as a result of her decision to adopt.  Quality of care likely to be poor possible neglect highly likely to

A. N. Other whilst June in hospital to

June - By now damage is done.  Deep psychological and emotional trauma.  Biology changed.  All reflected in SC's life: poor academic/work record, short marriage, difficulties parenting children, drug taking, mental illness, low self-esteem, depression, thoughts of suicide.

It's possible of course but this disorder would be in addition to her schizophrenia which is mainly hereditary. I still believe in Dr. Ferguson's judgement of Sheila that she would not commit suicide as "she had too much to live for",I'm wondering why she would choose to write to Ann Eaton from St. Andrew's if she felt everyone was against her,the remark from June to Ann Eaton about seeing the best in people and not judging them tallies with my assessment of relations as far as Sheila went at the time of the tragedies,and we have Nevill as the rock who had managed to calm his daughter down in the past and whom Sheila looked up to as described in Claire Powell's book.

[Jane]

It's possible of course but this disorder would be in addition to her schizophrenia which is mainly hereditary. I still believe in Dr. Ferguson's judgement of Sheila that she would not commit suicide as "she had too much to live for",I'm wondering why she would choose to write to Ann Eaton from St. Andrew's if she felt everyone was against her,the remark from June to Ann Eaton about seeing the best in people and not judging them tallies with my assessment of relations as far as Sheila went at the time of the tragedies,and we have Nevill as the rock who had managed to calm his daughter down in the past and whom Sheila looked up to as described in Claire Powell's book.

Good Morning Steve. As you continue to show so much faith in Dr F's judgement, let's take a look at what he saw the last time her saw Sheila and what he based that judgement on.

He saw a young woman who was full of hope for a bright future. She had probably dressed carefully and put her make up on professionally because she wanted him to see how much better she was. She wanted out of hospital NOW despite that he wanted her to stay for another week. She believed her world was changing. She had HOPE, hugely important to her recovery. It's never been revealed if she shared with him the reasons for that hope, but knowing what she was hoping for, she probably presented herself as glowing. She was, as we now know, hoping that there would be a reconciliation with Colin, her boys' father. She must have believed, that as they were getting on so much better since the divorce, he was as willing as she to give it another go. On top of that, she had been in regular contact with her birth mother and must have been longing for a meeting, may have already planned a meeting. just how wonderful that must have been for her I feel is beyond your comprehension to understand, Steve but try to imagine how it might be to feel that your mother had NEVER loved you, never accepted who YOU are, was constantly disappointed in you. I'm not speaking here about how June may have evolved over the years. By then, the damage was already done, and I'm not saying that June DIDN'T love Sheila, I'm saying that it was conditional love based on her expectations of what a daughter SHOULD be. Now, Sheila had hopes that the woman who gave birth to her was longing to have her back in her life, would love her unconditionally, accept her and be proud of her. Who knows what else she dreamed of/FANTASIZED about, but rest assured it was a future in which her birth mother, her childrens' REAL grandmother, played a large part. Steve, I feel her hope, her excitement. Can you? This was the young woman Dr F. saw during that last meeting. His knowledge of her ended there.

NOW, see if you can feel how Sheila MUST have felt when this magical bubble burst, when her plans for her future disintegrated. Her exhusband DIDN'T want a reconciliation, worse still, he told her he was in love with another woman...........and worst of all, by far, her birth mother didn't want her either. She wasn't going to be welcomed with open arms as part of a new family because they knew nothing of their mother's secret child and she didn't intend that they should. In one fell swoop, the mother who she believed would love her unconditionally relegates her to a secret mistake and rejects her for a SECOND time. I don't think you can comprehend this Steve and I truly hope that in your wildest nightmares you NEVER experience what it feels like.

It would have been hard enough for her to cope with had it happened over several YEARS, but it all took place over 18 weeks during which she was left unsupported by her meds because the dosage was reduced by a dangerous level, but that couldn't be admitted to, unsupported by the medical profession who should have been monitoring her and MAY have been able to do something about the dosage of her meds. There was NO ONE she could offload to. NO ONE she could cry to and tell them how much she was hurting. Emotionally and psychologically she must have been going down hill at a rate of knots. Those around her would have seen it without knowing the reason for it.......... BUT DR F. DIDN'T. As far as he was concerned, she remained, in his mind, the bright, hopeful girl he'd last seen. I don't feel it unreasonable to think that when she visited WHF for the last time she saw how her life was going to be compared to how she wanted it to be. To summarize, if Dr F. had seen THAT girl, his judgement of her would have been entirely different.

[killingeve]

It's possible of course but this disorder would be in addition to her schizophrenia which is mainly hereditary. I still believe in Dr. Ferguson's judgement of Sheila that she would not commit suicide as "she had too much to live for",I'm wondering why she would choose to write to Ann Eaton from St. Andrew's if she felt everyone was against her,the remark from June to Ann Eaton about seeing the best in people and not judging them tallies with my assessment of relations as far as Sheila went at the time of the tragedies,and we have Nevill as the rock who had managed to calm his daughter down in the past and whom Sheila looked up to as described in Claire Powell's book.

It's possible of course but this disorder would be in addition to her schizophrenia which is mainly hereditary. I still believe in Dr. Ferguson's judgement of Sheila that she would not commit suicide as "she had too much to live for",I'm wondering why she would choose to write to Ann Eaton from St. Andrew's if she felt everyone was against her,the remark from June to Ann Eaton about seeing the best in people and not judging them tallies with my assessment of relations as far as Sheila went at the time of the tragedies,and we have Nevill as the rock who had managed to calm his daughter down in the past and whom Sheila looked up to as described in Claire Powell's book.

Morning Steve_uk

I'm not sure what any of the above has to do with SC potentially having an attachment disorder and/or post-traumatic stress disorder? 

In any event you change the words used.  Dr F stated SC enjoyed life too much not that she had too much to live for.  June said don't look for things that aren't there not looking for good in others.

There's no definitive answer re the origins of schizophrenia. If youre interested check out Rufus May, clinical psychologist, for his views.  Do you think Stefan Kiszko wld have developed schizophrenia if he hadn't suffered a terrible MoJ?

Right off to get my hair highlighted followed by some work. 

[lookout]

Good Morning Steve. As you continue to show so much faith in Dr F's judgement, let's take a look at what he saw the last time her saw Sheila and what he based that judgement on.

He saw a young woman who was full of hope for a bright future. She had probably dressed carefully and put her make up on professionally because she wanted him to see how much better she was. She wanted out of hospital NOW despite that he wanted her to stay for another week. She believed her world was changing. She had HOPE, hugely important to her recovery. It's never been revealed if she shared with him the reasons for that hope, but knowing what she was hoping for, she probably presented herself as glowing. She was, as we now know, hoping that there would be a reconciliation with Colin, her boys' father. She must have believed, that as they were getting on so much better since the divorce, he was as willing as she to give it another go. On top of that, she had been in regular contact with her birth mother and must have been longing for a meeting, may have already planned a meeting. just how wonderful that must have been for her I feel is beyond your comprehension to understand, Steve but try to imagine how it might be to feel that your mother had NEVER loved you, never accepted who YOU are, was constantly disappointed in you. I'm not speaking here about how June may have evolved over the years. By then, the damage was already done, and I'm not saying that June DIDN'T love Sheila, I'm saying that it was conditional love based on her expectations of what a daughter SHOULD be. Now, Sheila had hopes that the woman who gave birth to her was longing to have her back in her life, would love her unconditionally, accept her and be proud of her. Who knows what else she dreamed of/FANTASIZED about, but rest assured it was a future in which her birth mother, her childrens' REAL grandmother, played a large part. Steve, I feel her hope, her excitement. Can you? This was the young woman Dr F. saw during that last meeting. His knowledge of her ended there.

NOW, see if you can feel how Sheila MUST have felt when this magical bubble burst, when her plans for her future disintegrated. Her exhusband DIDN'T want a reconciliation, worse still, he told her he was in love with another woman...........and worst of all, by far, her birth mother didn't want her either. She wasn't going to be welcomed with open arms as part of a new family because they knew nothing of their mother's secret child and she didn't intend that they should. In one fell swoop, the mother who she believed would love her unconditionally relegates her to a secret mistake and rejects her for a SECOND time. I don't think you can comprehend this Steve and I truly hope that in your wildest nightmares you NEVER experience what it feels like.

It would have been hard enough for her to cope with had it happened over several YEARS, but it all took place over 18 weeks during which she was left unsupported by her meds because the dosage was reduced by a dangerous level, but that couldn't be admitted to, unsupported by the medical profession who should have been monitoring her and MAY have been able to do something about the dosage of her meds. There was NO ONE she could offload to. NO ONE she could cry to and tell them how much she was hurting. Emotionally and psychologically she must have been going down hill at a rate of knots. Those around her would have seen it without knowing the reason for it.......... BUT DR F. DIDN'T. As far as he was concerned, she remained, in his mind, the bright, hopeful girl he'd last seen. I don't feel it unreasonable to think that when she visited WHF for the last time she saw how her life was going to be compared to how she wanted it to be. To summarize, if Dr F. had seen THAT girl, his judgement of her would have been entirely different.

Good morning April,,a brilliant post and summary of where Sheilas' life was going. The situation was an introduction to thoughts of suicide in a perfectly balanced individual,,let alone someone who already displayed all the markers of having the determination to carry it out.
This,,I would say,,is by far the nearest description of how Sheila would have felt finally,after the prior two years of turmoil in her life.
There has never been any doubt in my mind that Sheila had become so sick that she fully intended to end her own suffering,but in her own mind she must have thought about the twins if she wasn't around and coupled with the final discussion during dinner that night,,in a mad,blind attack,ended the lives of everyone. As with all mothers who kill,they themselves either attempt suicide,,or sadly succeed in doing so,,and I firmly believe that Sheila could see no other way out of her suffering.

[Jane]

Good morning April,,a brilliant post and summary of where Sheilas' life was going. The situation was an introduction to thoughts of suicide in a perfectly balanced individual,,let alone someone who already displayed all the markers of having the determination to carry it out.
This,,I would say,,is by far the nearest description of how Sheila would have felt finally,after the prior two years of turmoil in her life.
There has never been any doubt in my mind that Sheila had become so sick that she fully intended to end her own suffering,but in her own mind she must have thought about the twins if she wasn't around and coupled with the final discussion during dinner that night,,in a mad,blind attack,ended the lives of everyone. As with all mothers who kill,they themselves either attempt suicide,,or sadly succeed in doing so,,and I firmly believe that Sheila could see no other way out of her suffering.

Thankyou for that, lookout. It apperars to make as much sense to you as it does to me, but I doubt that Steve will see it in that light.

Nothings simply HAPPENS. There is always background, the background to Jeremy's supposed guilt ONLY being his GREED!!!! OH! and he didn't like farming.  It's flimsy, but there IS nothing else.Total BALLCOCKS from an intelligent but blinkered mind incapable or unwilling to see the FULL story probably through fear of deconstructing what he's spent 28 years putting in place, and almost certainly, fear of having to see the object of hitherto, deep affection, revealed in unflattering light as a liar.