Did Sheila Suffer An Attachment Disorder Resulting In Affectionless Psychopathy?

[Jane]

Yes april1 and it was Sheila whose problems manifested themselves first with Ralph and June:her low self-esteem brought about by her failure at school,and then the incident in the fields whereby June called her the "Devil's Child",which gave her a guilt trip about sex. Of course Jeremy also had low self-esteem,but he could escape this feeling through bluster with the other boys. Sheila did not have the wherewithal to renounce this feeling of worthlessness.

Here is where we may disagree. Sheila soaked up the reproach of her mother and found no outlet for it. Though it manifested itself through her illness she did not blame or take her revenge out on others. Jeremy however had a seething rage which he kept under the surface and learned to conceal his feelings which he saw as a weakness as he had confessed to being illegitimate which only resulted in him being labelled "The Bastard" by the other boys at school. Jeremy resented the attention Sheila was getting from his parents,who took their eye off the ball focussing on Sheila to the exclusion and detriment of Jeremy.

I recognize all you say of Sheila from my own childhood. What may not be obvious to you is that when somebody feels worthless, they also DON'T believe they have any right to anger, which would be a much more positive emotion. But the anger is there. It is internalized. Maybe Sheila needed drugs to help her keep a lid on her anger. My own theory, shared by many, is that suppressed emotions will find their way out in the form of illness, for me nothing wildly dramatic, just mildly debilitating but still there, all these years on. Maybe Sheila's mental condition was about the anger she couldn't allow herself to feel and when it finally exploded she was unable to control it.

Jeremy's relationship with Sheila. Hmmm. Sibling rivalry is a given, but in the case of a child who feels unloved it's often the case that they see every other child as receiving unbounded love. I would bring other children into the house in the hope that some of my mother's treatment of them would rub off on me. Maybe June found Sheila more malleable than Jeremy and he saw that as her getting attention he craved. To a child, ANY attention is better than no attention.........which brings me to a point you made in an earlier post about a lack of love. I imagine that with such high standards expected of them, both children found it difficult, at times, to feel loved. I think that what was missing was overt, demonstrated love of the type children need to see in order to feel. Children aren't capable of recognizing subtle and understated. I would agree with you that the atmosphere was more likely to be polite and repressed than joyous and spontaneous. I may feel more inclined to agree with you that Jeremy was responsible for what happened if there was evidence of any internalized anger erupting elsewhere at other times. The internal "bottle" will only hold so much before it explodes and it would be unreasonable to assume that his relationship with his parents was the only thing in his life which gave him cause for anger.

[Steve_uk]

I recognize all you say of Sheila from my own childhood. What may not be obvious to you is that when somebody feels worthless, they also DON'T believe they have any right to anger, which would be a much more positive emotion. But the anger is there. It is internalized. Maybe Sheila needed drugs to help her keep a lid on her anger. My own theory, shared by many, is that suppressed emotions will find their way out in the form of illness, for me nothing wildly dramatic, just mildly debilitating but still there, all these years on. Maybe Sheila's mental condition was about the anger she couldn't allow herself to feel and when it finally exploded she was unable to control it.

Jeremy's relationship with Sheila. Hmmm. Sibling rivalry is a given, but in the case of a child who feels unloved it's often the case that they see every other child as receiving unbounded love. I would bring other children into the house in the hope that some of my mother's treatment of them would rub off on me. Maybe June found Sheila more malleable than Jeremy and he saw that as her getting attention he craved. To a child, ANY attention is better than no attention.........which brings me to a point you made in an earlier post about a lack of love. I imagine that with such high standards expected of them, both children found it difficult, at times, to feel loved. I think that what was missing was overt, demonstrated love of the type children need to see in order to feel. Children aren't capable of recognizing subtle and understated. I would agree with you that the atmosphere was more likely to be polite and repressed than joyous and spontaneous. I may feel more inclined to agree with you that Jeremy was responsible for what happened if there was evidence of any internalized anger erupting elsewhere at other times. The internal "bottle" will only hold so much before it explodes and it would be unreasonable to assume that his relationship with his parents was the only thing in his life which gave him cause for anger.

I think this internalized anger expressed itself in his treatment of women,with Suzette Ford possibly being the exception,a woman who fulfilled Jeremy's sexual appetite as well as the role of ersatz mother. From then on he used women for what he could get out of them,as the men in the Maida Vale set used those glamorous insecure models as their own meal ticket. With Jeremy it wasn't a financial need he sought but a need to dominate them and dominate he did sexually with stories from Claire Powell's book emerging that Jeremy liked to pin women down to the bed. Of course there were two sides to Jeremy as there are to most of us as Brett Collins described him as "a big softie",but I think you had to know Jeremy awhile before he exhibited that facet of his personality to any person.

[Patti]

I recognize all you say of Sheila from my own childhood. What may not be obvious to you is that when somebody feels worthless, they also DON'T believe they have any right to anger, which would be a much more positive emotion. But the anger is there. It is internalized. Maybe Sheila needed drugs to help her keep a lid on her anger. My own theory, shared by many, is that suppressed emotions will find their way out in the form of illness, for me nothing wildly dramatic, just mildly debilitating but still there, all these years on. Maybe Sheila's mental condition was about the anger she couldn't allow herself to feel and when it finally exploded she was unable to control it.

Jeremy's relationship with Sheila. Hmmm. Sibling rivalry is a given, but in the case of a child who feels unloved it's often the case that they see every other child as receiving unbounded love. I would bring other children into the house in the hope that some of my mother's treatment of them would rub off on me. Maybe June found Sheila more malleable than Jeremy and he saw that as her getting attention he craved. To a child, ANY attention is better than no attention.........which brings me to a point you made in an earlier post about a lack of love. I imagine that with such high standards expected of them, both children found it difficult, at times, to feel loved. I think that what was missing was overt, demonstrated love of the type children need to see in order to feel. Children aren't capable of recognizing subtle and understated. I would agree with you that the atmosphere was more likely to be polite and repressed than joyous and spontaneous. I may feel more inclined to agree with you that Jeremy was responsible for what happened if there was evidence of any internalized anger erupting elsewhere at other times. The internal "bottle" will only hold so much before it explodes and it would be unreasonable to assume that his relationship with his parents was the only thing in his life which gave him cause for anger.

Brilliant post april, you have great understanding of how poeple feel and how they supress anger...

[Steve_uk]

The point is it wasn't in Sheila's nature to be violent;she was gullible and trusting and would never have hurt her sons. She shielded them from harm,she shielded them from the odd boyfriend whom she would only meet with during the daylight hours when she had the twins on Paddington Recreation Ground and never take a man back to the Maida Vale flat at night if they were there.

[Patti]

I think this internalized anger expressed itself in his treatment of women,with Suzette Ford possibly being the exception,a woman who fulfilled Jeremy's sexual appetite as well as the role of ersatz mother. From then on he used women for what he could get out of them,as the men in the Maida Vale set used those glamorous insecure models as their own meal ticket. With Jeremy it wasn't a financial need he sought but a need to dominate them and dominate he did sexually with stories from Claire Powell's book emerging that Jeremy liked to pin women down to the bed. Of course there were two sides to Jeremy as there are to most of us as Brett Collins described him as "a big softie",but I think you had to know Jeremy awhile before he exhibited that facet of his personality to any person.

Hi Steve

Nice to see you back, someone told me you had disappeared for a while.

I don't think Jermey used Julie at all. He loved her, he was with her for two years, he took her on holiday, paid for her clothes, gave her money in fact he helped her too much...One would say they had a perfect relationship untill the tradegies. It's all very sad what happened.

I aso feel that because Jeremy had money he was the one to be sought by women and used....I don't think he needed to be feel loved by any women...he was loved, he was a very attractive man...I suppose he had to be careful....

[Patti]

The point is it wasn't in Sheila's nature to be violent;she was gullible and trusting and would never have hurt her sons. She shielded them from harm,she shielded them from the odd boyfriend whom she would only meet with during the daylight hours when she had the twins on Paddington Recreation Ground and never take a man back to the Maida Vale flat at night if they were there.

The point is it wasn't in Jermey's nature either... How often, after a said crime in this nature do we read...that it's so out od character, then we hear that there has been sone diagnosis that they had some sort of metal illness....it coudl work both ways of course...but it is true to say.

Sorry but Freddie babysat for Shelia at evenings, she did socialise at night...

[maggie]

The point is it wasn't in Jermey's nature either... How often, after a said crime in this nature do we read...that it's so out od character, then we hear that there has been sone diagnosis that they had some sort of metal illness....it coudl work both ways of course...but it is true to say.

Sorry but Freddie babysat for Shelia at evenings, she did socialise at night...

Patti,  please god your desk top has a spellchecker!!

[Steve_uk]

The point is it wasn't in Jermey's nature either... How often, after a said crime in this nature do we read...that it's so out od character, then we hear that there has been sone diagnosis that they had some sort of metal illness....it coudl work both ways of course...but it is true to say.

Sorry but Freddie babysat for Shelia at evenings, she did socialise at night...

But we know it was in Jeremy's nature all along from the anecdotal evidence of six or seven people,the suppressed anger induced from his lonely days at Gresham's. The point about Sheila was that she never invaded the twins' space at the Maida Vale flat by bringing men back whilst they were there.

[Jane]

I think this internalized anger expressed itself in his treatment of women,with Suzette Ford possibly being the exception,a woman who fulfilled Jeremy's sexual appetite as well as the role of ersatz mother. From then on he used women for what he could get out of them,as the men in the Maida Vale set used those glamorous insecure models as their own meal ticket. With Jeremy it wasn't a financial need he sought but a need to dominate them and dominate he did sexually with stories from Claire Powell's book emerging that Jeremy liked to pin women down to the bed. Of course there were two sides to Jeremy as there are to most of us as Brett Collins described him as "a big softie",but I think you had to know Jeremy awhile before he exhibited that facet of his personality to any person.

I guess, temporarily, perhaps!! the honeymoon is over!!!

Had Jeremy's internalized anger found release through sex, I feel that there would have been at least SOME evidence of sexual violence. Undoubtly, he had fantasies, some sound as if they include bondage, but who is there to say that it wasn't at the request of the female involved. It's not just men who have this fantasy. I can quite see that Suzette may have been his ideal woman. If she fulfilled his desire for a mother figure, she must have been quite powerful and not the kind of woman he would dominate, unless it was at her request. I also see Julie as being a much more powerful character than Jeremy and I would apply similar comments to their relationship. A woman who requests bondage is unlikely to fully satisfy a man with the desire to dominate in the same way as when he can force domination on her, in fact it is more likely to cause him to be violent because he no longer feels in control.

Quite naturally, I wouldn't expect Brett to have the same opinion of him as his girlfriends. To do so would be to see him as one dimensional, and none of us is that.

[Jane]

But we know it was in Jeremy's nature all along from the anecdotal evidence of six or seven people,the suppressed anger induced from his lonely days at Gresham's. The point about Sheila was that she never invaded the twins' space at the Maida Vale flat by bringing men back whilst they were there.

But Sheila had been bought up to regard sex as shameful and I believe I've already made my views known on how much value I put on anecdotal evidence.

[Steve_uk]

I guess, temporarily, perhaps!! the honeymoon is over!!!

Had Jeremy's internalized anger found release through sex, I feel that there would have been at least SOME evidence of sexual violence. Undoubtly, he had fantasies, some sound as if they include bondage, but who is there to say that it wasn't at the request of the female involved. It's not just men who have this fantasy. I can quite see that Suzette may have been his ideal woman. If she fulfilled his desire for a mother figure, she must have been quite powerful and not the kind of woman he would dominate, unless it was at her request. I also see Julie as being a much more powerful character than Jeremy and I would apply similar comments to their relationship. A woman who requests bondage is unlikely to fully satisfy a man with the desire to dominate in the same way as when he can force domination on her, in fact it is more likely to cause him to be violent because he no longer feels in control.

Quite naturally, I wouldn't expect Brett to have the same opinion of him as his girlfriends. To do so would be to see him as one dimensional, and none of us is that.

I feel that a bridge had been crossed with Jeremy after his relationship with Suzette Ford broke up when she went back to her husband. We only have her word for it that she had three miscarriages;maybe this was true or maybe Suzette already having had three children she didn't want any more. Had they had a child together I doubt the White House Farm shootings would have taken place.

With Julie it was Jeremy who thought he held all the cards. She was trampled on in the way he did with her body he had assumed he could do with her mind,but Julie was the smartest girl he had gone out with to date and he underestimated her. She flattered him at every turn,she played the part of the domestic housewife at the cottage in Goldhanger,made a fuss of him and showed eagerness to please,which is why she volunteered to identify the bodies. In the days after the murders he started to compare Julie with what was now on offer with Anji Greaves and the excitement of being with her took over. Maybe there was an element of retribution in Julie's statement,coupled with a window opened to her which manifested Jeremy in his true form,the callous murderer who showed no signs of remorse and who had to be stopped,the Jeremy who had contracted genital herpes and who was possibly having relations with other men as well as women:she finally saw him for what he was,and with the help of her loyal friends she made the fateful decision to turn him in.

[Steve_uk]

But Sheila had been bought up to regard sex as shameful and I believe I've already made my views known on how much value I put on anecdotal evidence.

The problem for the Jeremy supporters is that the anecdotal evidence is damning and comes from six or seven different witnesses. Need I list them all again?

[maggie]

The problem for the Jeremy supporters is that the anecdotal evidence is damning and comes from six or seven different witnesses. Need I list them all again?

As these books are focussed on Jeremy bamber rather than his sister Sheila most of the anecdotal evidence will surely be about Jeremy.  I'm sure there may have been anecdotal evidence out there about Sheila and no doubt loads more would surface if Sheila had been found to be the guilty party. Your argument is therefore one sided in my opinion.

[Jane]

I feel that a bridge had been crossed with Jeremy after his relationship with Suzette Ford broke up when she went back to her husband. We only have her word for it that she had three miscarriages;maybe this was true or maybe Suzette already having had three children she didn't want any more. Had they had a child together I doubt the White House Farm shootings would have taken place.

With Julie it was Jeremy who thought he held all the cards. She was trampled on in the way he did with her body he had assumed he could do with her mind,but Julie was the smartest girl he had gone out with to date and he underestimated her. She flattered him at every turn,she played the part of the domestic housewife at the cottage in Goldhanger,made a fuss of him and showed eagerness to please,which is why she volunteered to identify the bodies. In the days after the murders he started to compare Julie with what was now on offer with Anji Greaves and the excitement of being with her took over. Maybe there was an element of retribution in Julie's statement,coupled with a window opened to her which manifested Jeremy in his true form,the callous murderer who showed no signs of remorse and who had to be stopped,the Jeremy who had contracted genital herpes and who was possibly having relations with other men as well as women:she finally saw him for what he was,and with the help of her loyal friends she made the fateful decision to turn him in.

I would agree that it is entirely possible that Suzette didn't want to have another child, which begs the question of whether they were being proactive in attempting a pregnancy or letting nature take its course. I can't eradicate the feeling that Suzette may have realized that it was not just a newborn for whom she would be responsible, but a manchild who had little understanding of an infant's demands and would possibly resent the time she spent on it.

I really don't see Julie as the heroine in a bodice ripper and I imagine the only time Jeremy trampled on her body was at her request!!!

As for the remainder of that paragraph, I have no intention of dignifying it with any verbal recognition.

[maggie]

I feel that a bridge had been crossed with Jeremy after his relationship with Suzette Ford broke up when she went back to her husband. We only have her word for it that she had three miscarriages;maybe this was true or maybe Suzette already having had three children she didn't want any more. Had they had a child together I doubt the White House Farm shootings would have taken place.
With Julie it was Jeremy who thought he held all the cards. She was trampled on in the way he did with her body he had assumed he could do with her mind,but Julie was the smartest girl he had gone out with to date and he underestimated her. She flattered him at every turn,she played the part of the domestic housewife at the cottage in Goldhanger,made a fuss of him and showed eagerness to please,which is why she volunteered to identify the bodies. In the days after the murders he started to compare Julie with what was now on offer with Anji Greaves and the excitement of being with her took over. Maybe there was an element of retribution in Julie's statement,coupled with a window opened to her which manifested Jeremy in his true form,the callous murderer who showed no signs of remorse and who had to be ....stopped,the Jeremy who had contracted genital herpes and who was possibly having relations with other men as well ........as women:she finally saw him for what he was,and with the help of her loyal friends she made the fateful decision ...to ..turn him in.

.Well, i don't know what to say Steve....I'm speechless.I suppose when you are in prison you are fair game for any one to write any old rubbish about you.  Where is your proof of any of this and please dont tell me its in some book written to make money out of other peoples misery.