Author Topic: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...  (Read 50966 times)

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Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2012, 07:13:AM »
Steve

Israel Rank still has an account and you can find his posts where he is debating with Mike Tesko and others on the alledged Ralph Bamber phonecalls. There are only nine posts from a while back. He sounded familiar with the case.

Well if I could just make it clear that I was not passing that article off as my own. In my original post on this subject I clearly stated the name of the article and put quotation marks round the relevant section. There has already been one insinuation of plagiarism on my person and I would not like this allegation to gain ground.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2012, 07:37:AM »
I understand this Steve, but what time frame is he working to? Surely if he is guilty HE would set the time frame. Theoretically he could have waited all night - who was to know? He didnt need to get back to his house in Goldhanger at any specific time. The phone call came to the police station at 3:26am That was surely the time that he had finished his grisly work - however if not it could be a few hours later - why not?

Because he had to get back to Goldhanger in the dark and thinking about it it's the only logical scenario even though I rejected it on first thought. Reading some of the other comments this may be an obvious thing to say but it is suspicious that all the family members died in that house with not one witness left to report first hand. Thinking of the thread on Sheila which still has not been removed I could think of one equally abhorrent concerning Jeremy blowing the brains out of his nephews but common decency constrains me.

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2012, 08:46:AM »
Mike the Police involved PC West and PC Bonnett insist that neither spoke to Nevill personally. The logs were allegedly written up retrospectively.

Bonnett was a civilian, but yes you are right that neither refer to a call from Ralph, although neither have actually been asked, I'm sure they would have mentioned it if it took place.

At one stage Mike tried to pass off Bonnetts log in it's entirety as coming from Ralph, now he's just trying to attribute a single line to Ralph. Pure fantasy imho.

jim ignatowski

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2012, 10:33:AM »
Jim the Prosecution case as we know was that there was no such telephone call made from White House Farm,but even if there was it would not prove that Ralph(Nevill) made it. It could just as well have been Jeremy telephoning his own number at Goldhanger cottage which would register on the answerphone and therefore appear on any itemized bill as a call which would be chargeable.
Hi Steve
But if the 2 phone calls were only minutes apart, both calls could not have been made by Jeremy - of course, Jeremy was the only person who could have made the phone call from his house but Jeremy could not have made the call from WHF!!

Offline boheme

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2012, 10:42:AM »
Because he had to get back to Goldhanger in the dark and thinking about it it's the only logical scenario even though I rejected it on first thought. Reading some of the other comments this may be an obvious thing to say but it is suspicious that all the family members died in that house with not one witness left to report first hand. Thinking of the thread on Sheila which still has not been removed I could think of one equally abhorrent concerning Jeremy blowing the brains out of his nephews but common decency constrains me.

I still believe someone else killed the family, this person rang JB from WHF to tell him the job was done and JB called Mugford first and then the Police - JB could not wait too long as he knew that the calls would be logged, he had to make a delay to allow the killer to escape and he also gained extra time by calling the police station and not 999, driving slowly to WHF.... However the killer was still in the house when they arrived as observed by Bews and JB in the bedroom window. If JB had waited until the bodies were discovered the next day his alibi of the phone call from his Father to implicate Sheila could obviously not have worked. The killer then slipped away only to be seen leaving the area, being described as a scruffy male. The timing is important as there could not be a delay between killing Ralf and calling the Police as JB would have assumed that the doctor would estimate the time of deaths, showing how long Sheila had been dead before the Police arrived - his whole plan revolved around the fact that it was 4 murders and a suicide, the suicide had to look instant - if they waited longer to kill Sheila it would not work as the crucial alibi call from Ralf would require an instant response from JB.... In my opinion this is how it was organised, JB did not kill them, he did not have to return to Goldhanger by bicycle, he was already there since the time he left WFH the evening before. The silencer, mantlepiece scratches etc. were used to frame JB, he had no signs of being in a fight etc. because he did not kill them, it was more convenient for the family and the Police to accuse him while the real killer was never found and probably never will be. I think he told Mugford Mathew did it to avoid identifying the real killer, just in case she did go to the Police, as of course the killer would have brought JB down with him. To this day JB cannot give this information.....he just has to try and discredit the fabricated evidence such as the silencer etc. which is his only hope of release... all this is of course just my opinion.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2012, 10:47:AM »
Hi Steve
But if the 2 phone calls were only minutes apart, both calls could not have been made by Jeremy - of course, Jeremy was the only person who could have made the phone call from his house but Jeremy could not have made the call from WHF!!

Jim it takes 10 minutes from White House Farm to Goldhanger Cottage cutting across farmland on the bicycle.

Offline susan

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2012, 10:52:AM »
Hi Jim  10 minutes to Goldhanger on a motorbike ;)

Offline maggie

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #67 on: July 27, 2012, 11:15:AM »
Jim it takes 10 minutes from White House Farm to Goldhanger Cottage cutting across farmland on the bicycle.
Steve, in the pitchblack without a light?....really? :o :o

Offline tyler

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #68 on: July 27, 2012, 11:21:AM »
Jim it takes 10 minutes from White House Farm to Goldhanger Cottage cutting across farmland on the bicycle.
Would this be Junes bicycle?The one that was forensically tested and eliminated?

Offline maggie

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #69 on: July 27, 2012, 11:23:AM »
Hi boheme, that is the only scenario I could contemplate if Jeremy was involved. 

However, the killer would have needed more than £2000 because only a professional hitman would contemplate such a killing.  Where did Jeremy get the money, there was no trace of £2000 never mind the massive amount needed for 2 children and three adults.  It would have cost him a huge lump of what he hoped to inherit, it doesn't even make financial sense. None of it makes financial sense anyway as he was in Granny Speakman's Will which would have improved his financial situation....even in 1985 £500,000 wasn't worth the effort and the trouble imho.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #70 on: July 27, 2012, 11:50:AM »
I still believe someone else killed the family, this person rang JB from WHF to tell him the job was done and JB called Mugford first and then the Police - JB could not wait too long as he knew that the calls would be logged, he had to make a delay to allow the killer to escape and he also gained extra time by calling the police station and not 999, driving slowly to WHF.... However the killer was still in the house when they arrived as observed by Bews and JB in the bedroom window. If JB had waited until the bodies were discovered the next day his alibi of the phone call from his Father to implicate Sheila could obviously not have worked. The killer then slipped away only to be seen leaving the area, being described as a scruffy male. The timing is important as there could not be a delay between killing Ralf and calling the Police as JB would have assumed that the doctor would estimate the time of deaths, showing how long Sheila had been dead before the Police arrived - his whole plan revolved around the fact that it was 4 murders and a suicide, the suicide had to look instant - if they waited longer to kill Sheila it would not work as the crucial alibi call from Ralf would require an instant response from JB.... In my opinion this is how it was organised, JB did not kill them, he did not have to return to Goldhanger by bicycle, he was already there since the time he left WFH the evening before. The silencer, mantlepiece scratches etc. were used to frame JB, he had no signs of being in a fight etc. because he did not kill them, it was more convenient for the family and the Police to accuse him while the real killer was never found and probably never will be. I think he told Mugford Mathew did it to avoid identifying the real killer, just in case she did go to the Police, as of course the killer would have brought JB down with him. To this day JB cannot give this information.....he just has to try and discredit the fabricated evidence such as the silencer etc. which is his only hope of release... all this is of course just my opinion.

I initially favoured this view boheme but eventually dismissed it. There were two patrol cars dispatched by Police after two calls which in my opinion were both made by Jeremy to the Police,not to 999 numbers which he thought might have been recorded by the BT operator,but to Chelmsford and Witham Police stations. The nearest Police station was Witham which was 7 miles away from White House Farm so any hitman would have had ample time to scarper before they arrived. I also think the hitman plan was just too risky for Jeremy as he would have had to pay him off for life,and anyway in Jeremy's thinking it wasn't necessary as he knew the layout of the farm and could do the job better than anybody. I think Jeremy sensed a hesitation in Julie and made up the hitman theory to spare her feelings(he was still helping her to move flat even after the argument they had).

The point about the telephone calls was that Jeremy in devising the wording used in the calls limits the suspects to either Sheila or himself-if you believe that Ralph(Nevill) was in the kitchen,unarmed and staying that way whilst Sheila was running amok with a gun around the farmhouse and his two grandchildren asleep upstairs, telephones Jeremy first before the Police then it is Sheila who is the culprit. If you think that there's no physical evidence that Nevill did make the call then you're back to suspecting Jeremy. I think Jeremy tried to keep it as simple as possible,hence the planted gun,the telephones mysteriously going dead after just a few words. I also think that had Jeremy used a hitman he didn't need to be at Goldhanger cottage at all that night-why not arrange to spend the night with a friend in London and just wait by a telephone box every half hour say for a call to come through saying the deed had been done?

I don't quite follow your timing theory because had a hitman been primed by Jeremy about where the rifle was,layout of the farm and so on there didn't need to be a telephone call to the Police at all. Jeremy saw a window of opportunity to commit the murders between the Sunday and the Wednesday,hence his call to Julie "tonight's the night",cynically knowing that it would be his last chance for some time to do away with his family and thus becoming the sole beneficiary of his parents' estate.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 11:58:AM by Steve_uk »

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #71 on: July 27, 2012, 11:52:AM »
Steve, in the pitchblack without a light?....really? :o :o

Yes that was the simplicity of it..darkness,nobody around,a woman's bicycle,how could anyone suspect?

Offline maggie

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #72 on: July 27, 2012, 11:58:AM »
Steve why a 'window of opportunity' between the sunday and wednesday.? Why would he choose the busiest few days of the year when he would be exhausted to carry out such a demanding crime?
Have you eve considered Caroline's discovery about the transfiguration of christ and the connection between the bible being open at that page, the association that it was the day of celebration ie 6th August and that the transfiguration is about death an cleansing before everlasting life.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #73 on: July 27, 2012, 12:16:PM »
Steve why a 'window of opportunity' between the sunday and wednesday.? Why would he choose the busiest few days of the year when he would be exhausted to carry out such a demanding crime?
Have you eve considered Caroline's discovery about the transfiguration of christ and the connection between the bible being open at that page, the association that it was the day of celebration ie 6th August and that the transfiguration is about death an cleansing before everlasting life.

Yes and it's a red herring if ever there was one. Any religious person knows that committing suicide is a sin,let alone killing four other people. There was a window of opportunity for Jeremy because he had quizzed Colin Caffell about when the twins would be arriving at the farm and knew it had to be those dates,hence his telephone call to Julie Mugford "it's now or never".

Offline maggie

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Re: Rifle flush with body, gun barrel under chin, clue...
« Reply #74 on: July 27, 2012, 12:22:PM »
Yes and it's a red herring if ever there was one. Any religious person knows that committing suicide is a sin,let alone killing four other people. There was a window of opportunity for Jeremy because he had quizzed Colin Caffell about when the twins would be arriving at the farm and knew it had to be those dates,hence his telephone call to Julie Mugford "it's now or never".
Steve, if Sheila was rational it would be a sin, Sheila was far from rational, that has to be faced, her attitude to religion was very questionable. I don't understand why you dismiss her illness which was proven and no doubt believe Jeremy was a psychopath although that is disproven.  You just want to make the facts fit your theory, Jeremy is guilty, end of story that's your opinion and your sticking to it whatever. imo