Sheila attempted to commit suicide (but failed), and was shot by the police...

[mike tesko]

What about the circular blood pattern on the carpet?

Possibly caused after Sheila sustained the second fatal shot under the chin and whilst police were moving her body from the bed to the bedroom floor. It is strange that it exists so close to where her body ended up...

[Roch]

Possibly caused after Sheila sustained the second fatal shot under the chin and whilst police were moving her body from the bed to the bedroom floor. It is strange that it exists so close to where her body ended up...

That would render the Birdwell Armory photos useless.

[mike tesko]

That would render the Birdwell Armory photos useless.

No, because thise tests were carried out having regards to the prosecutions contention that Sheila had been shot twice whilst on the bedroom floor, or at least one of them was. Those tests performed at Birdwell armoury (as it was then) were undertaken primarily to show that even if the silencer had been fitted to the guns barrel, the overall length of the weapon would not have been too long to prevent Sheila from shooting herself with a silencer fitted to the guns barrel, contrary to what the prosecution argued as part of its case during trial, and since...

[Roch]

No, because thise tests were carried out having regards to the prosecutions contention that Sheila had been shot twice whilst on the bedroom floor, or at least one of them was. Those tests performed at Birdwell armoury (as it was then) were undertaken primarily to show that even if the silencer had been fitted to the guns barrel, the overall length of the weapon would not have been too long to prevent Sheila from shooting herself with a silencer fitted to the guns barrel, contrary to what the prosecution argued as part of its case during trial, and since...

Ok but the pic were the model is upright, with the gun underneath her chin, was previously argued as a contender for the cause of that circular pattern.  But that would definitely have been a suicide shot. 

[lookout]

I'm taking that second shot as being purely " accidental "and not by Sheilas' hand.
The first shot was an attempt at suicide,,,which after a short while,would have eventually killed the girl,,but Sheila did not administer that second shot.No way.
As I've already surmised,that after the first shot,Sheila put the rifle on the windowsill upstairs,then lay on her bed.
It was after that she was moved,then the accident happened when the rifle went off " unexpectedly " during the investigation,,,then the big cover-up. Nobody likes to admit that they shot someone accidentally.

[Roch]

So, none of the 6 members of the raid team saw/heard Sheila flee upstairs or even noticed that she was no longer downstairs?

The alternative explanation is that the reference to Sheila being dead downstairs is a simple mistake?
Which of these explanations is the more credible (I pose rhetorically)?

They swept through the farmhouse to reach the children.  So their intentions were genuine and their actions carried out under extreme circs / pressure.

Which of these is more credible.... 
It is possible to bungle an armed raid. 
It is not possible to bungle an armed raid (I pose rhetorically)?

[mike tesko]

Ok but the pic were the model is upright, with the gun underneath her chin, was previously argued as a contender for the cause of that circular pattern.  But that would definitely have been a suicide shot.

Well, yes - but the tests conducted at Birdwell were undertaken with the view of dealing with several different aspects and features of the prosecutions case as argued by them during the trial, and subsequent appeal (2002). The tests were primarily carried out to disprove the prosecutions argument that with the silencer fitted to the rifle barrel the overall length of the gun would have been too long to give Sheila an opportunity to shoot and kill herself even if she had wanted to - the tests carried out were designed to show that the prosecution argument was fundamentally flawed in that respect. The only feature which impacted on the results of the tests carried out at Birdwell was the claim that a silencer had not been found at the scene by the police, which we now know was / is a complete and disgraceful lie, because DS "Stan" Jones seized four exhibits from the scene on the morning of the shootings, and one of these exhibits was a silencer...

[Roch]

Nobody likes to admit that they shot someone accidentally.

It's been claimed that they did not wish to upset Jeremy any further.

[Roch]

Well, yes - but the tests conducted at Birdwell were undertaken with the view of dealing with several different aspects and features of the prosecutions case as argued by them during the trial, and subsequent appeal (2002). The tests were primarily carried out to disprove the prosecutions argument that with the silencer fitted to the rifle barrel the overall length of the gun would have been too long to give Sheila an opportunity to shoot and kill herself even if she had wanted to - the tests carried out were designed to show that the prosecution argument was fundamentally flawed in that respect. The only feature which impacted on the results of the tests carried out at Birdwell was the claim that a silencer had not been found at the scene by the police, which we now know was / is a complete and disgraceful lie, because DS "Stan" Jones seized four exhibits from the scene on the morning of the shootings, and one of these exhibits was a silencer...

I'm still puzzled by that pattern.  It needs to be addressed.  There were pics of it on here before but I don't know on which thread they are, in order to link to them.  We cant upload docs on the forum as there is no space.  The spell check isn't working either.  Not sure if this is related.

[mike tesko]

Isn't that the point Jim is making? There is no evidence for the police-shot-Sheila theory, documentary or otherwise.

But there is - Jeremy made a complaint to a police officer at the scene on the morning of the shootings that the police had shot and killed all of his family, and that complaint was never investigated by anyone at any time, and some 27 years have elapsed since he made that complaint to a police officer at the scene upon learning that all his family inside the farmhouse were dead...

[mike tesko]

I'm still puzzled by that pattern.  It needs to be addressed.  There were pics of it on here before but I don't know on which thread they are, in order to link to them.  We cant upload docs on the forum as there is no space.  The spell check isn't working either.  Not sure if this is related.

Here is a link to the said photograph which I copied when I visited the office of GDS in London in 2004:-

(1) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18723;image

[grahameb]

But there is - Jeremy made a complaint to a police officer at the scene on the morning of the shootings that the police had shot and killed all of his family, and that complaint was never investigated by anyone at any time, and some 27 years have elapsed since he made that complaint to a police officer at the scene upon learning that all his family inside the farmhouse were dead...

In order to have made that complaint he must have heard gunshots of some kind?

[Roch]

In order to have made that complaint he must have heard gunshots of some kind?

I think differently.

[lookout]

In order to have made that complaint he must have heard gunshots of some kind?

He'd have heard the gunshots,Grahame,,but probably at the time didn't attach anything overly serious,,more of, say,warning shots being fired in the air,as opposed to him thinking the worst,,,as what happened. He was used to Sheila " kicking off ",but this action took it to extremes which he wouldn't have really been aware of,or expecting at the onset,until reaching the farmhouse. He would have been in shock, but felt suppressed at showing it because of the " unemotional " upbringing,,,as well as his macho image  being shot to pieces.

[Roch]

Here is a link to the said photograph which I copied when I visited the office of GDS in London in 2004:-

(1) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18723;image

Thanks.  Herbert Leon MacDonnell would not have seen this pattern, is that correct?