Sheila attempted to commit suicide (but failed), and was shot by the police...

[grahameb]

The six man raid team had progressed to other parts of the farmhouse, they left the bodies of Ralph and Sheila downstairs in the region of the kitchen, wrongly believing that both victims were dead...

They soon after reported 3 other bodies upstairs for some reason?

[jim ignatowski]

But, putting the matter as neutrally as possible, at least some of the raid team must have been astonished when they appreciated that Sheila had managed to transfer herself upstairs and to have "collapsed" on the bed (when photographed by SOC) , yet she then awoke and was shot by the police?
Take it from me, JB's defence team will NEVER seek to suggest that sequence of events is correct.
Mike, let me test the water in this way - I will personally pay for the top computer expert in the country to examine the hard drive on your computer to see if it contains the photograph - if you assure this forum that your hard drive does contain the photograph, I will arrange the expert to attend upon you and examine your hard drive at my expense. Do you accept this challenge? But I will only go to this expense if you positively assure this forum that the photograph is on your hard drive - I don't want any bull shit from you that, if the expert doesn't find the photograph on your hard drive, the photograph must have mysteriously disappeared !!!

[tonyb]

But, putting the matter as neutrally as possible, at least some of the raid team must have been astonished when they appreciated that Sheila had managed to transfer herself upstairs and to have "collapsed" on the bed (when photographed by SOC) , yet she then awoke and was shot by the police?
Take it from me, JB's defence team will NEVER seek to suggest that sequence of events is correct.
Mike, let me test the water in this way - I will personally pay for the top computer expert in the country to examine the hard drive on your computer to see if it contains the photograph - if you assure this forum that your hard drive does contain the photograph, I will arrange the expert to attend upon you and examine your hard drive at my expense. Do you accept this challenge? But I will only go to this expense if you positively assure this forum that the photograph is on your hard drive - I don't want any bull shit from you that, if the expert doesn't find the photograph on your hard drive, the photograph must have mysteriously disappeared !!!

I don't think the extraction of the data is the issue. You won't need a top expert in computers either,It ain't that difficult.

[Jane]

Please forgive my ignorance, but on the rare occasions I've been in possession of a gun I've always held the pointy bit away from me. Might it be possible that wherever Sheila was, she was in a state of semiconsciousness which was overlooked, the gun was placed in a position commensurate with her having shot herself, her finger covering the trigger, as she started to regain consciousness her body tensed, maybe in an attempt to sit up and she involuntarily pulled the trigger?

[Roch]

But, putting the matter as neutrally as possible, at least some of the raid team must have been astonished when they appreciated that Sheila had managed to transfer herself upstairs and to have "collapsed" on the bed (when photographed by SOC) , yet she then awoke and was shot by the police?
Take it from me, JB's defence team will NEVER seek to suggest that sequence of events is correct.
Mike, let me test the water in this way - I will personally pay for the top computer expert in the country to examine the hard drive on your computer to see if it contains the photograph - if you assure this forum that your hard drive does contain the photograph, I will arrange the expert to attend upon you and examine your hard drive at my expense. Do you accept this challenge? But I will only go to this expense if you positively assure this forum that the photograph is on your hard drive - I don't want any bull shit from you that, if the expert doesn't find the photograph on your hard drive, the photograph must have mysteriously disappeared !!!

That's clearly not what he has claimed

JB's defence team are tied to what has been set down in ink, with gaps here there and everywhere.

[jim ignatowski]

Neither in the original Trial nor at any subsequent stage has JB's defence team asserted that a policeman shot Sheila !!!!

[lookout]

Please forgive my ignorance, but on the rare occasions I've been in possession of a gun I've always held the pointy bit away from me. Might it be possible that wherever Sheila was, she was in a state of semiconsciousness which was overlooked, the gun was placed in a position commensurate with her having shot herself, her finger covering the trigger, as she started to regain consciousness her body tensed, maybe in an attempt to sit up and she involuntarily pulled the trigger?

Good morning April. If ever there was a " stage-managed" pic,,,it's the one where the rifle has been placed upon Sheila,with her hand in such a position as to make you think she shot herself.
No way,,could anyone lie in such a restful looking position after they've either shot themselves,or have been shot. The pain/impact of a close-range/contact shot,,,injury,, would leave an excruciating contorted expression on their face,,,unless she was drugged up to the hilt.
People who die in pain isn't a pretty sight,believe you me,,particularly if it's a sudden death.

On the other hand,as you pointed out,if she'd already have been in a state of semi-consciousness,,then the force of the second shot wouldn't have had the same effect as the first. So yes,,after the first injury,she would have been in a dazed state,,,but even then,I would fail to grasp at her being able to carry out a second shot to herself,and my own theory there is that she flopped onto her bed after that first shot,,,and it remains to be seen/heard who actually fired the second one,but it wasn't herself,,,as she'd have abandoned the rifle. 

[mike tesko]

One of the Key problems in this case is that Sheila did not voluntarily shoot herself under the chin, and her body was not found in the position shown by reference to the disclosed crime scene photographs, which show her body on the bedroom floor, with two bullet wounds to her neck. It was the prosecutions case at trial (and since) that somebody shot Sheila, with use of a rifle and silencer and then stage managed her body so that it might appear ass a suicide- which is what did occur. From the defence perspective, they claim that no-one shot Sheila but that she took her own life by shooting herself under the chin by use of a rifle without a silencer fitted to its barrel...

I agree that insofar as the fatal shot under the chin is / was concerned, that no silencer was fitted to the gun which fired that fatal shot, and with this in mind the silencer / blood found inside it / and paint upon it, is nothing but a red herring (bogus)...

[Roch]

Neither in the original Trial nor at any subsequent stage has JB's defence team asserted that a policeman shot Sheila !!!!

What about it?  Are you implying that documentary evidence is in the hands of the defence, to enable them to do so?  Because if no such (new) sworn testimony or other documentary evidence is in the hands of the defence, how could they claim such a thing? 

[Roch]

Jim ignatowski... please can you confirm, who Bamber blamed on the morning of 7/8/85, upon being informed of the deaths of his family?

[Bridget]

What about it?  Are you implying that documentary evidence is in the hands of the defence, to enable them to do so?  Because if no such (new) sworn testimony or other documentary evidence is in the hands of the defence, how could they claim such a thing?

Isn't that the point Jim is making? There is no evidence for the police-shot-Sheila theory, documentary or otherwise.

[Roch]

Isn't that the point Jim is making? There is no evidence for the police-shot-Sheila theory, documentary or otherwise.

No, I don't think it is.  You do not know that to be the case anyway.  What are the contents of report 1612 for example?  Verbal investigations have been going on behind the scenes for a considerable period of time.  Are you and Jim not confusing this forum, with the defence?  The two are not the same.  And documentary evidence is not the same as investigatory evidence given verbally.

[jim ignatowski]

My point is simple - JB's defence team has never asserted before a Court that Sheila was shot by a policeman.

[Bridget]

No, I don't think it is.  You do not know that to be the case anyway.  What are the contents of report 1612 for example?  Verbal investigations have been going on behind the scenes for a considerable period of time.  Are you and Jim not confusing this forum, with the defence?  The two are not the same.  And documentary evidence is not the same as investigatory evidence given verbally.

I'm sorry, you've lost me. I have no idea what you mean by verbal investigatory evidence - sounds like gossip!

By the way, in whose statement is the bit about JB blaming the raid team - I know I've read it but can't remember where.

[Roch]

My point is simple - JB's defence team has never asserted before a Court that Sheila was shot by a policeman.

JB's defence team have for 27 years, tried to uncover / piece together what took place.  Repeated requests for the release of relevant documentation have been denied, ignored, sidestepped.  Go and read the adjournment debate from Andrew Hunter and the reply given by Fiona McTaggart.  That was 7 years ago and 3 years after his last failed appeal, to put things in perspective. 

And Bridget, two Italian medical professors gave an estimated time of death as not superior to two hours of being discovered (official time of discover).  That places the death within the time frame of the raid. The CCRC rejected their report because they were working from photographs.  You your self have stated that there is no wet blood, which is astounding as there are plain as day small pools of wet blood upon her throat.