you should all know this?

[mike tesko]

Don't overdo it Mike, take it easy xx

Thanks...

Currently at PenrIth, having a coffee...

[mike tesko]

If police had already got the silencer evidence in the bag, and also Julie Mugfords party piece to boot, by the time they released him on bail, on 13 September, what was the purpose of arresting him in the first place?

[mike tesko]

Why wasn't the bloodied silencer, and julie Mugfords evidence, good enough to keep Bamber in custody, on and by 13th September 1985?

Was it because the words which were put into Julie Mugfirds mouth were unsatisfactory, and needed to be re-worded, to make the evidence her own? And, was it because the silencer found by the relatives, had not been sent to the lab` yet, and statements had not been made by the firearms team outlining what they found upon entering the farmhouse?

Funny how. All these crucial pieces of evidence, did not come into existence, until after Bamber was released on bail on 13th September...

Everything that needed to happen, happened and actually came into being, and occurred, right on cue between 13th and 29th September, just in time to arrest Bamber at Dover and charge him, witout mention of the use o a silencer, any blood found inside it, no mention of any paint on it - no interview at all regarding these things, they just arrested him and charged him with the murders, without putting any of this nonsense to him in interviews?

What kind of justice does this amount to?

[Roch]

Who is saying that RWB is believed to have got wind of the SIO?  That's not been mentioned before.

If RWB is aware of some form concealment via withheld photos re events at WHF, is it not likely that he would demand to know the nature of the concealment / photographs? 

Is the suggestion that RWB demanded such answers but such answers were not forthcoming from ACC Simpson?  That doesn't work for me.  Since that would involve RWB having only limited knowledge that all was not what it should be regarding the raid and/or Sheila's death.  Yet still demanding Jeremy be put in the frame for the killings?  (There would be a doubt in RWB's mind whether Jeremy was involved, yet he would ignore that doubt and insist Jeremy was investigated??) 

Or is the suggestion that RWB received the answers that he had sought regarding the contents of the SIO and events at WHF?  I find that difficult to believe also.  Because that scenario would lead to an utter callousness on the part of RWB.  Since he would then be knowingly insisting that an innocent Jeremy be put in the frame for the killings.

RWB was being given information by various friends and contacts who were mason colleagues, and some who were poilice officers, others still who were family of serving police officers, like Jim Carr whose son, Robbie, worked for the Met` police, was a typical source where RWB found out useful information that he later put to use in persuading his friend, Peter Simpson, to commence an investigation into the handling of the investigation thus far, RWB did not go there to ask Simpson to arrest Jeremy, he went there to lodge a complaint against DCI `Taff` Jones,  and to remonstrate over the things brought to his attention by informants in the know...

The investigation did not miraculously alter course on the day RWB confronted Simpson, this is borne out by the fact that DCS `Mick` Ainsleys appointment did not take effect, until after a brief investigation by another senior officer was duly carried out. It was not until mid September, and after the first arrest and release of Bamber on 13th September, that Ainsley took over officially...

The complaints made by RWB were serious ones, for example, he was aware that Sheila`s body had been found downstairs, and that Sheila was still alive, long after Dr Craig, the police surgeon, had pronounced her as being dead...

Firstly, this other senior officer who looked in to things in the wake of RWB's visit to ACC Simpson: Do you know who this officer was... and is there any information to suggest that he was given info either before or during his own investigations, as to what had actually taken place at WHF?  The very man who has appointed this other officer was afterall, in the know him self.  So was this other officer sent on a goose chase or was he briefed on true events?

Secondly, this does not look good for RWB if he knew about the anomalies listed above.  How could he still genuinely suspect jeremy, if he knew also about these things?  What evidence do you have that would suggest that RWB knew of these precise anomalies (i.e. info that detracted from the official version of events)?

This is a time period which I feel needs to be examined more closely on the forum.  Exaxtly how and why did the case turn? 

[mike tesko]

Who is saying that RWB is believed to have got wind of the SIO?  That's not been mentioned before.

If RWB is aware of some form concealment via withheld photos re events at WHF, is it not likely that he would demand to know the nature of the concealment / photographs? 

Is the suggestion that RWB demanded such answers but such answers were not forthcoming from ACC Simpson?  That doesn't work for me.  Since that would involve RWB having only limited knowledge that all was not what it should be regarding the raid and/or Sheila's death.  Yet still demanding Jeremy be put in the frame for the killings?  (There would be a doubt in RWB's mind whether Jeremy was involved, yet he would ignore that doubt and insist Jeremy was investigated??) 

Or is the suggestion that RWB received the answers that he had sought regarding the contents of the SIO and events at WHF?  I find that difficult to believe also.  Because that scenario would lead to an utter callousness on the part of RWB.  Since he would then be knowingly insisting that an innocent Jeremy be put in the frame for the killings.

RWB was being given information by various friends and contacts who were mason colleagues, and some who were poilice officers, others still who were family of serving police officers, like Jim Carr whose son, Robbie, worked for the Met` police, was a typical source where RWB found out useful information that he later put to use in persuading his friend, Peter Simpson, to commence an investigation into the handling of the investigation thus far, RWB did not go there to ask Simpson to arrest Jeremy, he went there to lodge a complaint against DCI `Taff` Jones,  and to remonstrate over the things brought to his attention by informants in the know...

The investigation did not miraculously alter course on the day RWB confronted Simpson, this is borne out by the fact that DCS `Mick` Ainsleys appointment did not take effect, until after a brief investigation by another senior officer was duly carried out. It was not until mid September, and after the first arrest and release of Bamber on 13th September, that Ainsley took over officially...

The complaints made by RWB were serious ones, for example, he was aware that Sheila`s body had been found downstairs, and that Sheila was still alive, long after Dr Craig, the police surgeon, had pronounced her as being dead...

Firstly, this other senior officer who looked in to things in the wake of RWB's visit to ACC Simpson: Do you know who this officer was... and is there any information to suggest that he was given info either before or during his own investigations, as to what had actually taken place at WHF?  The very man who has appointed this other officer was afterall, in the know him self.  So was this other officer sent on a goose chase or was he briefed on true events?

Secondly, this does not look good for RWB if he knew about the anomalies listed above.  How could he still genuinely suspect jeremy, if he knew also about these things?  What evidence do you have that would suggest that RWB knew of these precise anomalies (i.e. info that detracted from the official version of events)?

This is a time period which I feel needs to be examined more closely on the forum.  Exaxtly how and why did the case turn?

I will be home in a couple of hours, or three, I will be in a much better position to give a more comprehensive answer, so bear with me...

[mike tesko]

Who is saying that RWB is believed to have got wind of the SIO?  That's not been mentioned before.

If RWB is aware of some form concealment via withheld photos re events at WHF, is it not likely that he would demand to know the nature of the concealment / photographs? 

Is the suggestion that RWB demanded such answers but such answers were not forthcoming from ACC Simpson?  That doesn't work for me.  Since that would involve RWB having only limited knowledge that all was not what it should be regarding the raid and/or Sheila's death.  Yet still demanding Jeremy be put in the frame for the killings?  (There would be a doubt in RWB's mind whether Jeremy was involved, yet he would ignore that doubt and insist Jeremy was investigated??) 

Or is the suggestion that RWB received the answers that he had sought regarding the contents of the SIO and events at WHF?  I find that difficult to believe also.  Because that scenario would lead to an utter callousness on the part of RWB.  Since he would then be knowingly insisting that an innocent Jeremy be put in the frame for the killings.

RWB was being given information by various friends and contacts who were mason colleagues, and some who were poilice officers, others still who were family of serving police officers, like Jim Carr whose son, Robbie, worked for the Met` police, was a typical source where RWB found out useful information that he later put to use in persuading his friend, Peter Simpson, to commence an investigation into the handling of the investigation thus far, RWB did not go there to ask Simpson to arrest Jeremy, he went there to lodge a complaint against DCI `Taff` Jones,  and to remonstrate over the things brought to his attention by informants in the know...

The investigation did not miraculously alter course on the day RWB confronted Simpson, this is borne out by the fact that DCS `Mick` Ainsleys appointment did not take effect, until after a brief investigation by another senior officer was duly carried out. It was not until mid September, and after the first arrest and release of Bamber on 13th September, that Ainsley took over officially...

The complaints made by RWB were serious ones, for example, he was aware that Sheila`s body had been found downstairs, and that Sheila was still alive, long after Dr Craig, the police surgeon, had pronounced her as being dead...

Firstly, this other senior officer who looked in to things in the wake of RWB's visit to ACC Simpson: Do you know who this officer was... and is there any information to suggest that he was given info either before or during his own investigations, as to what had actually taken place at WHF?  The very man who has appointed this other officer was afterall, in the know him self.  So was this other officer sent on a goose chase or was he briefed on true events?

Secondly, this does not look good for RWB if he knew about the anomalies listed above.  How could he still genuinely suspect jeremy, if he knew also about these things?  What evidence do you have that would suggest that RWB knew of these precise anomalies (i.e. info that detracted from the official version of events)?

This is a time period which I feel needs to be examined more closely on the forum.  Exaxtly how and why did the case turn?

I will be home in a couple of hours, or three, I will be in a much better position to give a more comprehensive answer, so bear with me...

Firstly, I think the identity of the senior police officer who was appointed to investigate RWB complaints, is mentioned in a confidential report, entitled "REVIEW OF THE INVESTIGATION BY ESSEX POLICE INTO THE MURDERS BY JEREMY BAMBER", or a similar document currently in my possession..

[Roch]

There must be more to this Stokenchurch investigation than just the COLP enquiry, if that name is still in use for a date as late as that? 

[mike tesko]

(1) Part one of investigation - four murders and a suicide, under SC/688/85, between 7th August 1985 and 6th September 1985, (headed by DCI "Taff" Jones)...

(2) interim period where internal review of police handling of investigation took place, headed by senior police officer?

(3) Part two of investigation - five murders, under SC/786/85, which came into force on a date to be identified, by cross referencing all other crime reference numbers issued to other cases, in particular, bearing references, SC/785/85 and SC/787/85, (SC/786/85 - headed by DCS "Mick" Ainsley)...

[mike tesko]

There must be more to this Stokenchurch investigation than just the COLP enquiry, if that name is still in use for a date as late as that?

I will post copies of the full reports in due course, once I have sourced the other supporting documents in my possession...

[Roch]

Thanks Mike.  Did you get where I'm coming from re RWB?

[mike tesko]

Thanks Mike.  Did you get where I'm coming from re RWB?

RWB had it in his mind that Jeremy had got something to do with the shootings, he could not get it out of his mind what June Bamber had told him about Jeremy wanting to show Sheila how to load the .22 rifle with bullets, and it was this feature which convinced him, that even if Sheila had shot anybody, that Jeremy was involved in some way for the reasons given, which was a different matter entirely from the issue of the police mistaking Sheila as being dead downstairs at the scene, and she ending up being shot upstairs in the bedroom (on an occasion after armed police had entered the house)...

[Roch]

Thanks Mike.  Did you get where I'm coming from re RWB?

RWB had it in his mind that Jeremy had got something to do with the shootings, he could not get it out of his mind what June Bamber had told him about Jeremy wanting to show Sheila how to load the .22 rifle with bullets, and it was this feature which convinced him, that even if Sheila had shot anybody, that Jeremy was involved in some way for the reasons given...

Ok.  I accept that Jeremy had entered a downward spiral in RWB's estimations.  Dropping out of the young farmers' club etc.  But surely RWB must have questioned the dynamics of a potential incident with police and why Jeremy (if he was behind it) would leave Sheila alive (i.e. had such an incident with police taken place)?   Surely in the scenario you mention, an attempt would be made to accuse Jeremy of manipulating a mentally ill Sheila?  Yet Jeremy is prosecuted and convicted of carrying out the killings him self, in the first person?

[mike tesko]

Thanks Mike.  Did you get where I'm coming from re RWB?

RWB had it in his mind that Jeremy had got something to do with the shootings, he could not get it out of his mind what June Bamber had told him about Jeremy wanting to show Sheila how to load the .22 rifle with bullets, and it was this feature which convinced him, that even if Sheila had shot anybody, that Jeremy was involved in some way for the reasons given...

Ok.  I accept that Jeremy had entered a downward spiral in RWB's estimations.  Dropping out of the young farmers' club etc.  But surely RWB must have questioned the dynamics of a potential incident with police and why Jeremy (if he was behind it) would leave Sheila alive (i.e. had such an incident with police taken place)?   Surely in the scenario you mention, an attempt would be made to accuse Jeremy of manipulating a mentally ill Sheila?  Yet Jeremy is prosecuted and convicted of carrying out the killings him self, in the first person?

In the mind of RWB, Jeremy was somehow involved with the shooting of the other four victims, forget about Sheila for the moment, lets just say that RWB might have thought Jeremy had not sought or set out to kill her, but rather to leave her alive as a convenient scapegoat, held accountable for the other murders, and of course if true she might be excluded from benefiting from her parents estates, because should would have been responsible for their deaths?

RWB was convinced that Jeremy had played some role in the deaths of the other four victims, and so although he was armed with information about how Sheila was shot and killed in the bedroom during some sort of mishap, and the fact that police stage managed her body to make it look like she had taken her own life...

Although RWB felt these things, about the role which Jeremy had played in the shootings of the others, he kept these thoughts to himself, and kicked up a stink about the handling of the crime scene, and the investigation in general, trying to force an opening in the investigation for the police to eventually have to admit or suspect Jeremy had played some role in the shootings, albeit not necessarily the shooting of Sheila Caffell?

[mike tesko]

Here was/is one/two sources where RWB was getting his in formation from, from as early as 12th August 1985:-

[mike tesko]

Note...

There is no mention of the find of a silencer having been made by the relatives, in Jim Carrs note to RWB, about PC Robert Carrs (Met' Pol') visit to Witham police station, on 12th August 1985?...