Author Topic: A Tale of two SM's  (Read 3409 times)

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Offline Bubo bubo

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A Tale of two SM's
« on: October 16, 2024, 10:59:AM »
In a recent post HB correctly pointed out that neither the silencer or JM;s testimony alone would allow the case to be taken to trial.

HB Quote

"My worry about JM on her own, she carried some serious Baggage Jane, i'm not convinced the CPS would take it to trial with just her on her own, it's his word against her word then?  Having the silencer on it's own would still be hard,  the downside of the family finding it, might have been the stumbling block, but it slightly edges it for me over JM on her own.  But together they become stronger like you say".

Let’s look at the SM at this time because it is by far the most important evidence against JB as HB rightly observes.

The plot for that is what it was, was engineered by the family and was greatly assisted by SBJ. I think CC was right about the role of SBJ but in its early stages it was more of a question of likeminded individuals discussing aspects of how the SM could play a role and JB taken down.

At the meeting on the 12/08/85 the relatives found they had an ally. When they entered WHF and started to forage around, (10/08/85) they discovered AP’s SM was missing and I suggest it was this that acted as a trigger for what was to follow.

They realised that they would need both someone’s (JM’s) testimony or if not her words, then another person’s or some other piece of evidence. They had a problem with the family SM. It had not been taken as an evidential item but was in its box in the gun cupboard when they found it. The SM in police custody could not be used at trial because JB would know it was not his. I have posted about this aspect. It had to be swapped at some point and a plan was needed to overcome the ‘Locked and secured premises'.
It is not clear if the whole plan was in place at the end of this meeting. I believe it to have evolved over time.

The family would recreate the SM and work out how to solve the entry and exit issues. SBJ was to dig for some dirt on JM and in that way create a means to put the frighteners on her as both I and CC have suggested. It is unclear who did this, the family or SJB but I have suggested the family in an earlier post, it could be a bit of both.

After the trial the focus would fall on the two key issues which led to conviction. Undoubtedly the prime focus would be the SM. How did the police not find it on the day.” Is it a bit fishy that this key exhibit was found by the family”.

To facilitate a passable, ‘Off Ramp’, Dickinson included chapter 248 and some other morsels in his post Case review. His excuse was that the police unfortunately did not recognise the significance the SM in the early stages. However, as enquiries progressed its true relevance was revealed Given all the circumstances of this case and as it presented itself this meant that finger printing or a search of the premises was not warranted.

What is also of interest is chapter 265. (12/08/85) If I read this correctly, he says Miller knew of a SM prior to the meeting with RB but had not thought it relevant. Since the police returned WHF on 09/08/85. This find/knowledge had to relate to before this date and time.

The police were in possession of a SM before the family had access to WHF. They did not tell the family. Miller did not tell them. We do not know what Taff told them. No record was kept paragraphs 255 to 257.

Fast forward 5 years to 1991 and the COLP Enquiry.

How strange that ALL member of the SOCO team that ‘Was locked in WHF’ whilst carrying out their duties claim not to have found a SM. They all denied finding it between the 7th and 9th So, it seems by some magical process it suddenly appears by the 10/08/85 so that the family can find it. WOW.

What is more Cook in his statement (29/09/91) (page no’s 173-176) is now telling another story. He claims to have inspected the gun cupboard and not seeing a SM. He was disobeying Taff’s request not to search. He explains that if he sees something which does not look right, he will stop work and notify the SIO if it was outside his remit. He always keeps an open mind he says.

Of course, he could have missed it, but I doubt it. Make up in your own minds what you wish to believe. I believe it was found but rejected as playing no part in proceedings and left. The AP SM was already an exhibit in police custody and it was that SM which was sent to the lab.

The family SM was in my book, not ready to play its part. It needed tweaking to become the ‘doppelganger’ and there were other jigsaw pieces to be put in place as part of the overall scheme. Not least RB having his meeting with ACC Simpson. Creating the entrance and exit plan and manipulating JM and SB. Later it involved other actions to make it resemble the original DB1.

All the stories told by the relatives about its discovery and provenance, from RB phoning Maldon, (there is no record) to jam like blobs, grey hairs etc. etc are all part of the story they concocted. If RB did phone Maldon at that stage, the police would have known about the family SM having rejected it as not relevant. Hence their tardy reaction. This was an evolving situation and those involved had to stick to the agreed script adjusting it when required.

They all participated in making statements to give the story ‘wings’ as we all know, none of the family mentioned anything about these events in their early recollections and statements.
The external elements of the Family SM had to be created to match the original which had already been sent to the lab on the 13/08/85.

You can read how the switch was performed and more in my Silencer saga part 4 post.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10740.msg495095.html#msg495095

Dickinson paragraphs 219 to 265 is also worth a read.

The Doppelganger was supposedly found much later and handed in 11/09/85. This find is well documented. The original was at the lab (30/08/85) and inspected by MF (12/09/85)
I agree with CC about the internal findings of the SM which were falsified at the FSS.

My money is still on DB finding the AP SM on the day.

Offline Zoso

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Re: A Tale of two SM's
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2024, 02:55:PM »
They weren't looking for a SM. Why would they think a piece of evidence was in the back of a cupboard when the body of who they thought was the killer, is stretched out on the bedroom floor with a rifle accross her body?

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: A Tale of two SM's
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2024, 03:27:PM »
They weren't looking for a SM. Why would they think a piece of evidence was in the back of a cupboard when the body of who they thought was the killer, is stretched out on the bedroom floor with a rifle accross her body?

You think Cook missed it. Then who found it. According to Miller it was previously found between the 07/08/85 and 09/08/85 and thought to irrelevant. Then by magic re-appears on the 10th for the family to find it.

Offline Zoso

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Re: A Tale of two SM's
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2024, 03:33:PM »
You think Cook missed it. Then who found it. According to Miller it was previously found between the 07/08/85 and 09/08/85 and thought to irrelevant. Then by magic re-appears on the 10th for the family to find it.

I didn't say he 'missed' it - no one had any reason to think it was linked to the crime! Miller clearly just got the day wrong. Someone mentioned Occam's Razor, the convoluted conspiracies on here bear no relation to that principle!

Offline Curiosity

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Re: A Tale of two SM's
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2024, 04:19:PM »
I didn't say he 'missed' it - no one had any reason to think it was linked to the crime! Miller clearly just got the day wrong. Someone mentioned Occam's Razor, the convoluted conspiracies on here bear no relation to that principle!
They're trying to flog Beckham's exorbitant, over-complicated 5-bladed Gillette whereas a simple, single-blade BIC razor is more than enough for a good shave -
I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and furballs.

Offline snow66!

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Re: A Tale of two SM's
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2024, 05:51:PM »
They're trying to flog Beckham's exorbitant, over-complicated 5-bladed Gillette whereas a simple, single-blade BIC razor is more than enough for a good shave -
They're trying to flog over-complicated stories about how Nevill's back was burned!
Some say he obediently marched down stairs,proded with a red hot rifle barrel which didn't even mark his pyjamas!
Others say that the killer actually heated up the rifle barrel to burn Nevill's back three times to check for life,after bashing his brains out and shooting him several times mind you!
I jest you not!! I jest you not!!
When in actual fact,the poor man simply fell against a hot cooker!

Offline Adam

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Re: A Tale of two SM's
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2024, 06:09:PM »
They're trying to flog Beckham's exorbitant, over-complicated 5-bladed Gillette whereas a simple, single-blade BIC razor is more than enough for a good shave -

Best way to have a close wet shave is don't use foam or oil. Just wet your face.

You don't need hot water either. Cold water is fine. Shave against the grain as well as with it.

A disposable 2 blade will then be enough.

'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline David1819

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Re: A Tale of two SM's
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2024, 06:30:PM »
They're trying to flog Beckham's exorbitant, over-complicated 5-bladed Gillette whereas a simple, single-blade BIC razor is more than enough for a good shave -

Having used single blade BIC razors to shave once, it was the worst shaving experience. The blades would get dull before finishing a single shave, it was more time consuming, and did not deliver smooth results at all. Beard strands are very thick and coarse, you need at least three blades.

Offline ILB

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Re: A Tale of two SM's
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2024, 06:38:PM »
Having used single blade BIC razors to shave once, it was the worst shaving experience. The blades would get dull before finishing a single shave, it was more time consuming, and did not deliver smooth results at all. Beard strands are very thick and coarse, you need at least three blades.

Just using throwaway razors make my face look like a pizza
If yesterday you hated me. Then today you can not stop the love that binds from me to you. And you to me

Offline snow66!

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Re: A Tale of two SM's
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2024, 06:45:PM »
Best way to have a close wet shave is don't use foam or oil. Just wet your face.

You don't need hot water either. Cold water is fine. Shave against the grain as well as with it.

A disposable 2 blade will then be enough.
A cold shave, against the grain Adam?
Gee whiz! You must be a real tough guy!
Or do you jest?

Offline Adam

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Re: A Tale of two SM's
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2024, 07:10:PM »
A cold shave, against the grain Adam?
Gee whiz! You must be a real tough guy!
Or do you jest?

Works for me. Even after a few days of not shaving.

Shaving in the shower you are in hot water. If using a sink will just wet my face with cold water.

Couldn't shave with a razor with a dry face. Too much resistance.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline snow66!

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Re: A Tale of two SM's
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2024, 07:44:PM »
Works for me. Even after a few days of not shaving.

Shaving in the shower you are in hot water. If using a sink will just wet my face with cold water.

Couldn't shave with a razor with a dry face. Too much resistance.
Oh well!
You must have very fine hair on your face Adam.
Very fine indeed!

Offline Adam

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Re: A Tale of two SM's
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2024, 08:04:PM »
Oh well!
You must have very fine hair on your face Adam.
Very fine indeed!

You can see what you are doing without foam.

Have used good quality electric razors. They are fine but not very good in the neck area for me. Unlike a blade.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline snow66!

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Re: A Tale of two SM's
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2024, 08:29:PM »
You can see what you are doing without foam.

Have used good quality electric razors. They are fine but not very good in the neck area for me. Unlike a blade.
Well,I have a short beard and moustache Adam,so I dont need a close shave!
Only shave my neck and cheeks, and around my mouth!

Offline BarefootDanC

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Re: A Tale of two SM's
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2024, 08:52:PM »
In a recent post HB correctly pointed out that neither the silencer or JM;s testimony alone would allow the case to be taken to trial.

HB Quote

"My worry about JM on her own, she carried some serious Baggage Jane, i'm not convinced the CPS would take it to trial with just her on her own, it's his word against her word then?  Having the silencer on it's own would still be hard,  the downside of the family finding it, might have been the stumbling block, but it slightly edges it for me over JM on her own.  But together they become stronger like you say".

Let’s look at the SM at this time because it is by far the most important evidence against JB as HB rightly observes.

The plot for that is what it was, was engineered by the family and was greatly assisted by SBJ. I think CC was right about the role of SBJ but in its early stages it was more of a question of likeminded individuals discussing aspects of how the SM could play a role and JB taken down.

At the meeting on the 12/08/85 the relatives found they had an ally. When they entered WHF and started to forage around, (10/08/85) they discovered AP’s SM was missing and I suggest it was this that acted as a trigger for what was to follow.

They realised that they would need both someone’s (JM’s) testimony or if not her words, then another person’s or some other piece of evidence. They had a problem with the family SM. It had not been taken as an evidential item but was in its box in the gun cupboard when they found it. The SM in police custody could not be used at trial because JB would know it was not his. I have posted about this aspect. It had to be swapped at some point and a plan was needed to overcome the ‘Locked and secured premises'.
It is not clear if the whole plan was in place at the end of this meeting. I believe it to have evolved over time.

The family would recreate the SM and work out how to solve the entry and exit issues. SBJ was to dig for some dirt on JM and in that way create a means to put the frighteners on her as both I and CC have suggested. It is unclear who did this, the family or SJB but I have suggested the family in an earlier post, it could be a bit of both.

After the trial the focus would fall on the two key issues which led to conviction. Undoubtedly the prime focus would be the SM. How did the police not find it on the day.” Is it a bit fishy that this key exhibit was found by the family”.

To facilitate a passable, ‘Off Ramp’, Dickinson included chapter 248 and some other morsels in his post Case review. His excuse was that the police unfortunately did not recognise the significance the SM in the early stages. However, as enquiries progressed its true relevance was revealed Given all the circumstances of this case and as it presented itself this meant that finger printing or a search of the premises was not warranted.

What is also of interest is chapter 265. (12/08/85) If I read this correctly, he says Miller knew of a SM prior to the meeting with RB but had not thought it relevant. Since the police returned WHF on 09/08/85. This find/knowledge had to relate to before this date and time.

The police were in possession of a SM before the family had access to WHF. They did not tell the family. Miller did not tell them. We do not know what Taff told them. No record was kept paragraphs 255 to 257.

Fast forward 5 years to 1991 and the COLP Enquiry.

How strange that ALL member of the SOCO team that ‘Was locked in WHF’ whilst carrying out their duties claim not to have found a SM. They all denied finding it between the 7th and 9th So, it seems by some magical process it suddenly appears by the 10/08/85 so that the family can find it. WOW.

What is more Cook in his statement (29/09/91) (page no’s 173-176) is now telling another story. He claims to have inspected the gun cupboard and not seeing a SM. He was disobeying Taff’s request not to search. He explains that if he sees something which does not look right, he will stop work and notify the SIO if it was outside his remit. He always keeps an open mind he says.

Of course, he could have missed it, but I doubt it. Make up in your own minds what you wish to believe. I believe it was found but rejected as playing no part in proceedings and left. The AP SM was already an exhibit in police custody and it was that SM which was sent to the lab.

The family SM was in my book, not ready to play its part. It needed tweaking to become the ‘doppelganger’ and there were other jigsaw pieces to be put in place as part of the overall scheme. Not least RB having his meeting with ACC Simpson. Creating the entrance and exit plan and manipulating JM and SB. Later it involved other actions to make it resemble the original DB1.

All the stories told by the relatives about its discovery and provenance, from RB phoning Maldon, (there is no record) to jam like blobs, grey hairs etc. etc are all part of the story they concocted. If RB did phone Maldon at that stage, the police would have known about the family SM having rejected it as not relevant. Hence their tardy reaction. This was an evolving situation and those involved had to stick to the agreed script adjusting it when required.

They all participated in making statements to give the story ‘wings’ as we all know, none of the family mentioned anything about these events in their early recollections and statements.
The external elements of the Family SM had to be created to match the original which had already been sent to the lab on the 13/08/85.

You can read how the switch was performed and more in my Silencer saga part 4 post.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10740.msg495095.html#msg495095

Dickinson paragraphs 219 to 265 is also worth a read.

The Doppelganger was supposedly found much later and handed in 11/09/85. This find is well documented. The original was at the lab (30/08/85) and inspected by MF (12/09/85)
I agree with CC about the internal findings of the SM which were falsified at the FSS.

My money is still on DB finding the AP SM on the day.

Nevill owned a sound moderator - this is an undisputed fact - so regardless of anything else, the sound moderator must have been somewhere in the house.

It follows therefore that if the police didn't find it, that can only be because they weren't looking properly! It cannot be the case that they searched the house and didn't find it because it wasn't there.

Of course, we could speculate that they did find it, but for some reason lied about it.

Why would they leave it, relying on the relatives to find it !?