A Jeremy Scenario

[Adam]

The 4 casings in the main bedroom where QC says Nevill 'didn't' sleep. Where did the police kick them from?

I look forward to a reply.

[Armchair Detective]

You really need to provide a Sheila or Bamber scenario.

Please ensure both match the crime scene evidence.

My Bamber scenario would match yours pretty much. The details can't be known so won't quibble over them. 

My Sheila scenario would be similar to QC's as he is the only one that has ever come close to getting Nevill on the phone to JB without sounding utterly ridiculous. (Although to be fair to other posters, I haven't read the entire contents of the forum)

I still think JB did it but I can respect those who have their doubts.

[Adam]

My Bamber scenario would match yours pretty much. The details can't be known so won't quibble over them. 

My Sheila scenario would be similar to QC's as he is the only one that has ever come close to getting Nevill on the phone to JB without sounding utterly ridiculous. (Although to be fair to other posters, I haven't read the entire contents of the forum)

I still think JB did it but I can respect those who have their doubts.

Thanks.

I will have to re read QC's Sheila scenario.

I dismissed it & forgot about it when he complained to NGB after I started asking questions.

[guest29835]

@Armchair Detective

I did not say that Essex Police accidentally picked up four spent cartridges.  You can't accidentally pick something up with your hands.  But there would have been a lot of police activity in the main bedroom and officers would have moved from the kitchen to the main bedroom, each a focal point, and cartridges could have got stuck in boot treads and been kicked around.  You also have to remember that the trajectory of cartridges is not linear; once ejected, they can bounce anywhere in the vicinity.  If the killer is shooting from the landing or stairs downwards, cartridges could bounce back on to the landing and then end up in the master bedroom, as that's where the main police footfall is.

I don't accept that you can just create any scenario and interpret the evidence however you like.  I find the suggestion rather condescending, since it's not what I am doing.  In any event, this is a discussion forum.  I don't mind you and Adam coming up with your own scenarios and commenting on, critiquing and criticising mine.  I do mind being trolled.  It's annoying.

Anybody who accepts Adam's scenario has to resolve certain problems.  Why is June shot first?  How does Nevill escape from the main bedroom?  How is it that Nevill is shot in bed but leaves no blood in bed?  How is it that blood is absent from the carpet of the upper main stairway, yet Nevill must have been bleeding and putting his hand to wounds?  What about the stairway walls?  The bannister? Did Nevill deliberately not take hold of the bannister or touch the stairway walls so as not to make a mess?  Why doesn't Jeremy catch up with him? 

[lookout]

Why was Sheila's face different from that of her parents when they were allegedly all killed at the same time ? Facial muscles are the first affected during RM as they're not heavy like the rest of the body as there's a stark difference in appearance, no sign whatsoever of RM in Sheila's face ! It takes less than 2 hours to be noticeable.

[killingeve]

If Jeremy was masked, Nevill would probably still recognise him.  I accept that we're dealing with an extraordinary situation, and Nevill may have just fled instinctively and without thinking at all.  I find it improbable, though.  If Nevill gets hit on the head with the rifle, then Nevill stays upstairs and he dies there.

As for Sheila, my scenario for her as the killer again has Nevill downstairs.  Quite simply, I see no evidence for the proposition that Nevill was upstairs that night.  Putting him downstairs solves a number of problems.

Bamber's defence counsel challenged at trial.  The expert evidence was that Mr Bamber sustained four gunshot wounds upstairs evidenced by the casings.  There's also two small bloodstains on the landing carpet that were tested (Dr Lincoln's report for the defence) and bloodstains on the stairs carpet evidenced by DCI Jones notebook and Mrs Eaton's wit stat.  In addition to this Mr Bamber's blood group matched blood found on wallpaper in the hall (Dr Lincoln's report for the defence)  DC Hammersley told the trial there was also a light distribution of blood on the kitchen floor (DC Hammersley trial testimony).  In other words a blood trail existed from the landing, down the stairs, hallway and across the kitchen.  If this didn't originate from Mr Bamber sustaining 4 gunshot wounds upstairs and then moving from upstairs to the kitchen evidenced by the blood trail, who do you think it did originate from and under what circumstances? 

[killingeve]

Why was Sheila's face different from that of her parents when they were allegedly all killed at the same time ? Facial muscles are the first affected during RM as they're not heavy like the rest of the body as there's a stark difference in appearance, no sign whatsoever of RM in Sheila's face ! It takes less than 2 hours to be noticeable.

Just a pity that none of the officers or the police surgeon noticed at the scene.  Nor did two highly qualified pathologists of long experience notice on far better quality images that you have access to. 

Next...

[lookout]

Just a pity that none of the officers or the police surgeon noticed at the scene.  Nor did two highly qualified pathologists of long experience notice on far better quality images that you have access to. 

Next...

That's right---brush it to one side  Professionals make mistakes you know !! Ian Thomlinson ??

[killingeve]

Just to continue this line of thought, in regard to the question of a 'struggle', I'm interpreting the scene through the likely perpetrator. 

In both scenarios, I have Nevill shot on the stairs with the perpetrator above him.  Nevill then runs back to the kitchen and the perpetrator follows. 

Then:

- if Jeremy is the perpetrator, I doubt there was a struggle.  Jeremy is strong enough to negate Nevill quickly and can simply shoot him and bludgeon him;

- if Sheila is the perpetrator, I allow that there could have been a struggle when they got back to the kitchen.

I don't pretend these scenarios are not without problems and flaws.  Where is the blood from Nevill en route to the kitchen?  Why doesn't Nevill out-run the killer and attempt to flee the house for one of the nearby cottages, or even go in the den?  These are similar to the problems with Adam's scenario, but they are of lesser significance as we don't have to explain Nevill passing Jeremy in the tight enclosed space of the bedroom and main landing while leaving no blood, and the related problem of how Nevill manages to reach even the bottom of the stairs without Jeremy catching him, never mind the kitchen. 

If, instead, we accept a scenario in which Nevill is downstairs, the problems can be resolved: Jeremy catches Nevill in the kitchen and Nevill is already severely injured and confused, etc.  In the case of Sheila, Nevill may have decided to disarm her first: a mistake, but understandable as it's his daughter.

See earlier post.  There is a clear blood trail from upstairs to the kitchen. 

[killingeve]

The carpets either have visible blood on them or they don't.  DCI Jones did record his observation of specks of what appeared to be blood on the main stair carpet in his pocketbook, when he was examining the scene on the morning of the 7th., but these was not tested - probably because the traces were not susceptible to testing, as I am sure SOC officers would have noticed it.

Soc officers did not notice it as they actually removed it by washing. 

[Jane]

Why was Sheila's face different from that of her parents when they were allegedly all killed at the same time ? Facial muscles are the first affected during RM as they're not heavy like the rest of the body as there's a stark difference in appearance, no sign whatsoever of RM in Sheila's face ! It takes less than 2 hours to be noticeable.

There must be any number of variables which can be thrown into the mix. Top of the list being age and that Sheila, being very much premenopausal, still had a healthy supply of estragon.

[lookout]

There must be any number of variables which can be thrown into the mix. Top of the list being age and that Sheila, being very much premenopausal, still had a healthy supply of estragon.

Nothing to do with oestrogen Jane. It's the muscle that withers because of lack of blood supply, so therefore it sinks.

[Adam]

@Armchair Detective

I did not say that Essex Police accidentally picked up four spent cartridges.  You can't accidentally pick something up with your hands.  But there would have been a lot of police activity in the main bedroom and officers would have moved from the kitchen to the main bedroom, each a focal point, and cartridges could have got stuck in boot treads and been kicked around.  You also have to remember that the trajectory of cartridges is not linear; once ejected, they can bounce anywhere in the vicinity.  If the killer is shooting from the landing or stairs downwards, cartridges could bounce back on to the landing and then end up in the master bedroom, as that's where the main police footfall is.

I don't accept that you can just create any scenario and interpret the evidence however you like.  I find the suggestion rather condescending, since it's not what I am doing.  In any event, this is a discussion forum.  I don't mind you and Adam coming up with your own scenarios and commenting on, critiquing and criticising mine.  I do mind being trolled.  It's annoying.

Anybody who accepts Adam's scenario has to resolve certain problems.  Why is June shot first?  How does Nevill escape from the main bedroom?  How is it that Nevill is shot in bed but leaves no blood in bed?  How is it that blood is absent from the carpet of the upper main stairway, yet Nevill must have been bleeding and putting his hand to wounds?  What about the stairway walls?  The bannister? Did Nevill deliberately not take hold of the bannister or touch the stairway walls so as not to make a mess?  Why doesn't Jeremy catch up with him?

Where did the cartridges come from?

[Adam]

@Armchair Detective

I did not say that Essex Police accidentally picked up four spent cartridges.  You can't accidentally pick something up with your hands.  But there would have been a lot of police activity in the main bedroom and officers would have moved from the kitchen to the main bedroom, each a focal point, and cartridges could have got stuck in boot treads and been kicked around.  You also have to remember that the trajectory of cartridges is not linear; once ejected, they can bounce anywhere in the vicinity.  If the killer is shooting from the landing or stairs downwards, cartridges could bounce back on to the landing and then end up in the master bedroom, as that's where the main police footfall is.

I don't accept that you can just create any scenario and interpret the evidence however you like.  I find the suggestion rather condescending, since it's not what I am doing.  In any event, this is a discussion forum.  I don't mind you and Adam coming up with your own scenarios and commenting on, critiquing and criticising mine.  I do mind being trolled.  It's annoying.

Anybody who accepts Adam's scenario has to resolve certain problems.  Why is June shot first?  How does Nevill escape from the main bedroom?  How is it that Nevill is shot in bed but leaves no blood in bed?  How is it that blood is absent from the carpet of the upper main stairway, yet Nevill must have been bleeding and putting his hand to wounds?  What about the stairway walls?  The bannister? Did Nevill deliberately not take hold of the bannister or touch the stairway walls so as not to make a mess?  Why doesn't Jeremy catch up with him?

My scenario matches the evidence.

Yours has Nevill sleeping downstairs and the police kicking 4 unexplained cartridges through WHF.

[killingeve]

I've already explained that the position of the casings cannot be relied on.  Police officers in heavy tread boots were traipsing all over the scene.

Blood was found on the landing.  I don't see why that could not have come from June.  It wasn't tested.  If Nevill is the one leaving the blood, why doesn't he leave similar blood stains on the upper part of the main stairway?

I don't understand the relevance of this.  I don't pretend that any scenario I come up with is going to be flawless, but I have not suggested anything out of the ordinary.

The only person who goes on about an 'industrial frame department' is Adam.  It's a silly response, and I lampooned it by suggesting that Jeremy should consult with an optician about obtaining some stylish industrial aesthetic glasses.

Yet, as I stated on another thread, there was a real 'industrial frame department' - at the Post Office.  And that is not the only example.  However, I have not suggested that this case has those features.

The blood on the landing was tested and a blood trail exists from upstairs to the kitchen.

You are struggling because you refuse to accept the expert evidence by way of pathology, ballistics and biology.  Mrs Bamber was shot initially with her head on the pillow x 2.  She then sustained 4 further gunshot wounds as she was lifting herself out of bed/by the bed.  If you care to look at the soc images you will see she was bleeding heavily at this point.  Bloodstains on the landing carpet amounted to two tiny stains.  If Mrs Bamber moved onto the landing after she was shot why would she stop bleeding profusely to leave just leave two tiny stains? 

Please bear in mind that Mrs Bamber sustained exit wounds which produce far more blood than entry wounds.  Mr Bamber did not sustain any exit wounds.