A Jeremy Scenario

[Adam]

@Armchair Detective

I did not say that Essex Police accidentally picked up four spent cartridges.  You can't accidentally pick something up with your hands.  But there would have been a lot of police activity in the main bedroom and officers would have moved from the kitchen to the main bedroom, each a focal point, and cartridges could have got stuck in boot treads and been kicked around.  You also have to remember that the trajectory of cartridges is not linear; once ejected, they can bounce anywhere in the vicinity.  If the killer is shooting from the landing or stairs downwards, cartridges could bounce back on to the landing and then end up in the master bedroom, as that's where the main police footfall is.

I don't accept that you can just create any scenario and interpret the evidence however you like.  I find the suggestion rather condescending, since it's not what I am doing.  In any event, this is a discussion forum.  I don't mind you and Adam coming up with your own scenarios and commenting on, critiquing and criticising mine.  I do mind being trolled.  It's annoying.

Anybody who accepts Adam's scenario has to resolve certain problems.  Why is June shot first?  How does Nevill escape from the main bedroom?  How is it that Nevill is shot in bed but leaves no blood in bed?  How is it that blood is absent from the carpet of the upper main stairway, yet Nevill must have been bleeding and putting his hand to wounds?  What about the stairway walls?  The bannister? Did Nevill deliberately not take hold of the bannister or touch the stairway walls so as not to make a mess?  Why doesn't Jeremy catch up with him?

All answered previously. Weak questions from you.

Bamber shot Nevill and June 9 times. June first as she was nearer. Bamber thought neither would wake.

Nevill chose to escape the main bedroom. Bamber didn't stop him. Why? Only he knows.

The hallway carpet was not tested for blood.

[killingeve]

That's right---brush it to one side  Professionals make mistakes you know !! Ian Thomlinson ??

Professionals do make mistakes yes.  But in this regard you're not a professional and in 36 years no professional has even attempted to challenge the pathological evidence.  Hopefully this tells you all you need to know although I suspect not.

Next...

[lookout]

Professionals do make mistakes yes.  But in this regard you're not a professional and in 36 years no professional has even attempted to challenge the pathological evidence.  Hopefully this tells you all you need to know although I suspect not.

Next...

It's possible that among the fresh evidence that many anomalies will come to light using more up to date techniques which blows your archaic mind out of the water. 36 years on ? Tsk. Methuselah ! 



Next !   

[killingeve]

Please, if you wish to post your scenario again, could you do so on your own thread?  No scenario in this case is going to be without problems.  I believe the scenarios I have posted do match the crime scene.

I know the rifle held 30 bullets and I have Jeremy re-loading in my scenario.  Why do you lie and twist what people say?

Try telling that to reconstruction experts.  This case has a mountain of data given 26 gunshots were discharged.  How do you think the Saville inquiry reached a conclusion?  How do you think the assassination of JFK was concluded?  How do you think experts in the states reconstruct shooting incidents?
What do you think the trial of Oscar Pistorius centered on? 
 

[killingeve]

It's possible that among the fresh evidence that many anomalies will come to light using more up to date techniques which blows your archaic mind out of the water. 36 years on ? Tsk. Methuselah ! 
Next !   

If it has anything to do with the CT I doubt it very much.  If it has anything to do with the pathological evidence definitely not. 

Next...

[killingeve]

Soc officers did notice it as they actually removed it by washing.

[Armchair Detective]

@Armchair Detective

I did not say that Essex Police accidentally picked up four spent cartridges.  You can't accidentally pick something up with your hands.  But there would have been a lot of police activity in the main bedroom and officers would have moved from the kitchen to the main bedroom, each a focal point, and cartridges could have got stuck in boot treads and been kicked around.  You also have to remember that the trajectory of cartridges is not linear; once ejected, they can bounce anywhere in the vicinity.  If the killer is shooting from the landing or stairs downwards, cartridges could bounce back on to the landing and then end up in the master bedroom, as that's where the main police footfall is.

I don't accept that you can just create any scenario and interpret the evidence however you like.  I find the suggestion rather condescending, since it's not what I am doing.  In any event, this is a discussion forum.  I don't mind you and Adam coming up with your own scenarios and commenting on, critiquing and criticising mine.  I do mind being trolled.  It's annoying.

Anybody who accepts Adam's scenario has to resolve certain problems.  Why is June shot first?  How does Nevill escape from the main bedroom?  How is it that Nevill is shot in bed but leaves no blood in bed?  How is it that blood is absent from the carpet of the upper main stairway, yet Nevill must have been bleeding and putting his hand to wounds?  What about the stairway walls?  The bannister? Did Nevill deliberately not take hold of the bannister or touch the stairway walls so as not to make a mess?  Why doesn't Jeremy catch up with him?

Sorry for the confusion QC, I could have worded that better, I know you didn't mean they had bent down and picked them up with their hands, here:

To explain the casings you now have experienced SOCO's or TFG unwittingly picking up casings on the soles of their boots and all four of them get walked upstairs and deposited again in the bedroom.No officers trained to be observant in a crime scene notice that they are disappearing/reappearing . None dislodge from the boots ?on the stairs or in any other rooms and the casings in the boys room remain undisturbed, (perhaps they were more careful in there) - why didn't the clumsy oafs walk in the blood too? Sorry but I'm not buying it, it was the SIO that was unprofessional with his assumptions, the rest made some mistakes but knew enough to be careful in a crime scene.

Here's a thought though, why not have JB move some of the casings to make it look like Nevill went to June's aid? 

I do agree that  if NB doesn't go upstairs  it solves some minor problems but in doing so, you create new ones that require just as much head scratching and supposition.

Adam's scenario is essentially the one the police believed the most likely but to save arguing about the unknowable, how about I just put your theory in the maybe pile along with all the others.  

[lookout]

Blimey, they couldn't even count 36 years ago so it doesn't say much for anything else that was carried out

[Adam]

Sorry for the confusion QC, I could have worded that better, I know you didn't mean they had bent down and picked them up with their hands, here:

To explain the casings you now have experienced SOCO's or TFG unwittingly picking up casings on the soles of their boots and all four of them get walked upstairs and deposited again in the bedroom.No officers trained to be observant in a crime scene notice that they are disappearing/reappearing . None dislodge from the boots ?on the stairs or in any other rooms and the casings in the boys room remain undisturbed, (perhaps they were more careful in there) - why didn't the clumsy oafs walk in the blood too? Sorry but I'm not buying it, it was the SIO that was unprofessional with his assumptions, the rest made some mistakes but knew enough to be careful in a crime scene.

Here's a thought though, why not have JB move some of the casings to make it look like Nevill went to June's aid? 

I do agree that  if NB doesn't go upstairs  it solves some minor problems but in doing so, you create new ones that require just as much head scratching and supposition.

Adam's scenario is essentially the one the police believed the most likely but to save arguing about the unknowable, how about I just put your theory in the maybe pile along with all the others.

Will never happen.

QC keeps asking me questions on my scenario.

All have straight forward answers.

Or impossible to answer - why did Nevill run out of the main bedroom. Only Nevill knows that but plenty of common sense reasons.

[Armchair Detective]

Bamber's defence counsel challenged at trial.  The expert evidence was that Mr Bamber sustained four gunshot wounds upstairs evidenced by the casings.  There's also two small bloodstains on the landing carpet that were tested (Dr Lincoln's report for the defence) and bloodstains on the stairs carpet evidenced by DCI Jones notebook and Mrs Eaton's wit stat.  In addition to this Mr Bamber's blood group matched blood found on wallpaper in the hall (Dr Lincoln's report for the defence)  DC Hammersley told the trial there was also a light distribution of blood on the kitchen floor (DC Hammersley trial testimony).  In other words a blood trail existed from the landing, down the stairs, hallway and across the kitchen.  If this didn't originate from Mr Bamber sustaining 4 gunshot wounds upstairs and then moving from upstairs to the kitchen evidenced by the blood trail, who do you think it did originate from and under what circumstances?

Thanks for a clear and concise explanation CC.

[Adam]

Sorry for the confusion QC, I could have worded that better, I know you didn't mean they had bent down and picked them up with their hands, here:

To explain the casings you now have experienced SOCO's or TFG unwittingly picking up casings on the soles of their boots and all four of them get walked upstairs and deposited again in the bedroom.No officers trained to be observant in a crime scene notice that they are disappearing/reappearing . None dislodge from the boots ?on the stairs or in any other rooms and the casings in the boys room remain undisturbed, (perhaps they were more careful in there) - why didn't the clumsy oafs walk in the blood too? Sorry but I'm not buying it, it was the SIO that was unprofessional with his assumptions, the rest made some mistakes but knew enough to be careful in a crime scene.

Here's a thought though, why not have JB move some of the casings to make it look like Nevill went to June's aid? 

I do agree that  if NB doesn't go upstairs  it solves some minor problems but in doing so, you create new ones that require just as much head scratching and supposition.

Adam's scenario is essentially the one the police believed the most likely but to save arguing about the unknowable, how about I just put your theory in the maybe pile along with all the others.

Have you seen Rob's Sheila scenario?

It's a recent thread.

[Armchair Detective]

Have you seen Rob's Sheila scenario?

No and no disrespect to Rob but I am getting bored of scenarios.

[killingeve]

Bamber's defence counsel challenged at trial.  The expert evidence was that Mr Bamber sustained four gunshot wounds upstairs evidenced by the casings.  There's also two small bloodstains on the landing carpet that were tested (Dr Lincoln's report for the defence) and bloodstains on the stairs carpet evidenced by DCI Jones notebook and Mrs Eaton's wit stat.  In addition to this Mr Bamber's blood group matched blood found on wallpaper in the hall (Dr Lincoln's report for the defence)  DC Hammersley told the trial there was also a light distribution of blood on the kitchen floor (DC Hammersley trial testimony).  In other words a blood trail existed from the landing, down the stairs, hallway and across the kitchen.  If this didn't originate from Mr Bamber sustaining 4 gunshot wounds upstairs and then moving from upstairs to the kitchen evidenced by the blood trail, who do you think it did originate from and under what circumstances?

Actually I should make it clear that Ed Lawson for the defence at trial asked the HO ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher if Mr Bamber sustained any of his four gunshot wounds upstairs outside the bedroom and he replied no.  (Malcolm Fletcher's trial testimony). 

[killingeve]

Actually I should make it clear that Ed Lawson for the defence at trial asked the HO ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher if Mr Bamber sustained any of his four gunshot wounds upstairs outside the bedroom and he replied no.  (Malcolm Fletcher's trial testimony).

Here's the trial evidence.

[lookout]

If it has anything to do with the CT I doubt it very much.  If it has anything to do with the pathological evidence definitely not. 

Next...

Then it should have been all left to me !!