A Jeremy Scenario

[Adam]

I am not being dogmatic about it.  I do disagree with you, but I also acknowledge that you may be right.  Something in your favour is that it was a low calibre weapon.

However, for you to be correct about this, that would mean June is getting up and out of bed when she is injured and while the assailant continues firing at her.  Remember where she is found and in what position: on her back by the bed with her feet near to the door, and with blood around the bed, all of which suggests she has been moving around.  Consider her age.  She is an elderly woman, and she may be in shock.

Bear in mind also the psychology of this.  If Jeremy is the killer and he has caught Nevill and June still in bed, then he will shoot Nevill first, not June.  I think you undermine your own case when you try to suggest that Jeremy is firing on June first.  If Nevill is in bed, then it's easy for Jeremy.  He has plenty of time and can walk up to Nevill and shoot him at close range, then shoot him some more as part of the staging to make it look like Sheila run amok.

Finally, also take into account the position of the brass bed itself.  it is at right-angles to Jeremy's likely route of assault.

Taking all this into consideration, I find it more likely that a Jeremy scenario involves Jeremy negating Nevill downstairs (Nevill having decided to sleep downstairs, for the reasons given) and Jeremy then goes back up the stairs and finds June on the landing.  As June backs into the master bedroom, he fires on her.  She backs into her bed, where she leaves more blood, then comes about two feet forward towards Jeremy, probably screaming.  Then he kills her by shooting her between the eyes (this last shot occurring either there and then as just described, or later if he finds her still alive).

I think the police then moved June's body.  Her body was probably originally found with her feet somewhat at the threshold, Jeremy firing from the stairs, then the landing.  The reason I think this is because if you look at the poor woman's body in the photos, the position she is photographed in doesn't make sense. It looks like her body is laid flat and has been 'staged' by somebody.

This all fits the evidence - if you assume Jeremy is guilty.

June was shot 5 times. Bamber then used his remaining 4 bullets on Nevill.

June moved while Bamber was in the kitchen.

[Adam]

I am not being dogmatic about it.  I do disagree with you, but I also acknowledge that you may be right.  Something in your favour is that it was a low calibre weapon.

However, for you to be correct about this, that would mean June is getting up and out of bed when she is injured and while the assailant continues firing at her.  Remember where she is found and in what position: on her back by the bed with her feet near to the door, and with blood around the bed, all of which suggests she has been moving around.  Consider her age.  She is an elderly woman, and she may be in shock.

Bear in mind also the psychology of this.  If Jeremy is the killer and he has caught Nevill and June still in bed, then he will shoot Nevill first, not June.  I think you undermine your own case when you try to suggest that Jeremy is firing on June first.  If Nevill is in bed, then it's easy for Jeremy.  He has plenty of time and can walk up to Nevill and shoot him at close range, then shoot him some more as part of the staging to make it look like Sheila run amok.

Finally, also take into account the position of the brass bed itself.  it is at right-angles to Jeremy's likely route of assault.

Taking all this into consideration, I find it more likely that a Jeremy scenario involves Jeremy negating Nevill downstairs (Nevill having decided to sleep downstairs, for the reasons given) and Jeremy then goes back up the stairs and finds June on the landing.  As June backs into the master bedroom, he fires on her.  She backs into her bed, where she leaves more blood, then comes about two feet forward towards Jeremy, probably screaming.  Then he kills her by shooting her between the eyes (this last shot occurring either there and then as just described, or later if he finds her still alive).

I think the police then moved June's body.  Her body was probably originally found with her feet somewhat at the threshold, Jeremy firing from the stairs, then the landing.  The reason I think this is because if you look at the poor woman's body in the photos, the position she is photographed in doesn't make sense. It looks like her body is laid flat and has been 'staged' by somebody.

This all fits the evidence - if you assume Jeremy is guilty.

Well he was on June's side of the bed. So shot her first. Confident his remaining 4 shots would kill, disable Nevill. They nearly did.

[Jane]

Especially forum members that make up stories about having sex in prison . Dont you think

"Forum members" don't have to make up such stories. It's known, probably well beyond this Forum, that prisons are allowed to enjoy certain "privileges". Much as you probably don't want to hear such, regular sex is believed to calm any anger an aggression. I understand, from where, I can't remember, that JB was once engaged.

[Roch]

Time someone spoke the truth and more people realize. Truth is bitter and hard to swallow sometimes.  I agree with your comment whole heartedly.

Thank you Munska. I feel that it is a kick in the teeth for all my fellow UK citizens. A massive V sign held up to our faces.

[Adam]

I am not being dogmatic about it.  I do disagree with you, but I also acknowledge that you may be right.  Something in your favour is that it was a low calibre weapon.

However, for you to be correct about this, that would mean June is getting up and out of bed when she is injured and while the assailant continues firing at her.  Remember where she is found and in what position: on her back by the bed with her feet near to the door, and with blood around the bed, all of which suggests she has been moving around.  Consider her age.  She is an elderly woman, and she may be in shock.

Bear in mind also the psychology of this.  If Jeremy is the killer and he has caught Nevill and June still in bed, then he will shoot Nevill first, not June.  I think you undermine your own case when you try to suggest that Jeremy is firing on June first.  If Nevill is in bed, then it's easy for Jeremy.  He has plenty of time and can walk up to Nevill and shoot him at close range, then shoot him some more as part of the staging to make it look like Sheila run amok.

Finally, also take into account the position of the brass bed itself.  it is at right-angles to Jeremy's likely route of assault.

Taking all this into consideration, I find it more likely that a Jeremy scenario involves Jeremy negating Nevill downstairs (Nevill having decided to sleep downstairs, for the reasons given) and Jeremy then goes back up the stairs and finds June on the landing.  As June backs into the master bedroom, he fires on her.  She backs into her bed, where she leaves more blood, then comes about two feet forward towards Jeremy, probably screaming.  Then he kills her by shooting her between the eyes (this last shot occurring either there and then as just described, or later if he finds her still alive).

I think the police then moved June's body.  Her body was probably originally found with her feet somewhat at the threshold, Jeremy firing from the stairs, then the landing.  The reason I think this is because if you look at the poor woman's body in the photos, the position she is photographed in doesn't make sense. It looks like her body is laid flat and has been 'staged' by somebody.

This all fits the evidence - if you assume Jeremy is guilty.

Why an earth would Nevill go upstairs to his bedroom, put his pyjamas on, then go downstairs to sleep?

[guest29835]

Why an earth would Nevill go upstairs to his bedroom, put his pyjamas on, then go downstairs to sleep?

A valid point, but why not? Or why not have June leave his pyjamas in the downstairs shower room?  Or why not use pyjamas already downstairs, change downstairs and put his clothes in the wash?

Why shouldn't that have been his routine anyway?  He was a busy, hands-on farmer in the middle of a summer harvest.  Would June want him to be going in the main bedroom in dirty clothes?

It's worth thinking about.

[Munksa]

Thank you Munska. I feel that it is a kick in the teeth for all my fellow UK citizens. A massive V sign held up to our faces.

I get you Roch.

[Munksa]

Especially forum members that make up stories about having sex in prison . Dont you think

Don't need to make anything up. It's true though.

As childish as it may sound are you Jealous because you wish it was you Jackie? Hehe he

[Rob_]

Don't need to make anything up. It's true though.

As childish as it may sound are you Jealous because you wish it was you Jackie? Hehe he

No chance in a Cat A Munksa, unless he is so well hung he can do it from the other side of the table?

[Adam]

I am not being dogmatic about it.  I do disagree with you, but I also acknowledge that you may be right.  Something in your favour is that it was a low calibre weapon.

However, for you to be correct about this, that would mean June is getting up and out of bed when she is injured and while the assailant continues firing at her.  Remember where she is found and in what position: on her back by the bed with her feet near to the door, and with blood around the bed, all of which suggests she has been moving around.  Consider her age.  She is an elderly woman, and she may be in shock.

Bear in mind also the psychology of this.  If Jeremy is the killer and he has caught Nevill and June still in bed, then he will shoot Nevill first, not June.  I think you undermine your own case when you try to suggest that Jeremy is firing on June first.  If Nevill is in bed, then it's easy for Jeremy.  He has plenty of time and can walk up to Nevill and shoot him at close range, then shoot him some more as part of the staging to make it look like Sheila run amok.

Finally, also take into account the position of the brass bed itself.  it is at right-angles to Jeremy's likely route of assault.

Taking all this into consideration, I find it more likely that a Jeremy scenario involves Jeremy negating Nevill downstairs (Nevill having decided to sleep downstairs, for the reasons given) and Jeremy then goes back up the stairs and finds June on the landing.  As June backs into the master bedroom, he fires on her.  She backs into her bed, where she leaves more blood, then comes about two feet forward towards Jeremy, probably screaming.  Then he kills her by shooting her between the eyes (this last shot occurring either there and then as just described, or later if he finds her still alive).

I think the police then moved June's body.  Her body was probably originally found with her feet somewhat at the threshold, Jeremy firing from the stairs, then the landing.  The reason I think this is because if you look at the poor woman's body in the photos, the position she is photographed in doesn't make sense. It looks like her body is laid flat and has been 'staged' by somebody.

This all fits the evidence - if you assume Jeremy is guilty.

There is no evidence they did.

[lookout]

There IS evidence that June's body had been moved to the dorsal / supine position from sitting propped up against the bedroom door.l

[Jane]

No chance in a Cat A Munksa, unless he is so well hung he can do it from the other side of the table?

Rob, I do find such very inhumane. given that back in the 60s, ladies, residents of our local Psych hospital, were taken down the road to the male facility to spend the night. This was done, purely on the grounds that regular sex was known to have a calming effect on the men. Naturally, all the ladies were fitted with contraceptive devices, or fed the contraceptive pill as part of their daily meds routine. How much more important is it to keep long term prisoners' equilibrium balanced?

[Munksa]

No chance in a Cat A Munksa, unless he is so well hung he can do it from the other side of the table?

Rob this was around 1991-1992. He was not CAT A then.  The same year he celebrated is birthday with his fellow  inmates with food they cooked. Bamber made pineapple upside down cake.

[Adam]

There IS evidence that June's body had been moved to the dorsal / supine position from sitting propped up against the bedroom door.l

Please supply it.

[guest29835]

I've realised there is a flaw in my scenario in that if Jeremy uses an answerphone as suggested, that would then pinpoint the call at a particular time that would, in turn, make it impossible for Jeremy to then call the police from Bourtree Cottage within, say, 10 minutes of the alert from Nevill.

I think this is a point that has to be researched further because I don't remember how 1980s phones worked.  Is there anybody else here who knows the answer and can provide reliable sources?

Here we are assuming that Jeremy decides he has to stage a call (rather than just make one up), and notwithstanding that billing was non-itemised at that time, he assumes that there may be a way of pinpointing when calls are made, so he has to take precautions.

The obvious thing for Jeremy to do in this situation would be to:

(i). ring Bourtree Cottage from the farmhouse;
(ii). ensure there is a ring tone, then leave it to ring;
(iii). then terminate the call roughly 50 minutes or so later at Bourtree Cottage;
(iv). then ring the farmhouse from Bourtree Cottage, ensuring there is an engaged tone at the other end;
(v). then terminate that call.

Was this technically possible at that time?