A Jeremy Scenario

[killingeve]

Yes, the ones in the public domain, or more specifically, this site. Unless I have missed some, the only photo's of June are impossible to compare with the better ones of Sheila and there are no angles that would show livor mortis on Sheila.

I am agreeing with you that there is no evidence that Sheila died later than the others but it has to be said that if the police had taken body temperatures or analysed SC's stomach contents, it would be more difficult to speculate/offer unqualified opinion.

Unfortunately I think that might be wishful thinking.  Even if we had body temps confirming victims all died around the same time, supporters would say the results were fudged or there was some problem with the accuracy of the thermometer.   

[Jane]

Yes, the ones in the public domain, or more specifically, this site. Unless I have missed some, the only photo's of June are impossible to compare with the better ones of Sheila and there are no angles that would show livor mortis on Sheila.

I am agreeing with you that there is no evidence that Sheila died later than the others but it has to be said that if the police had taken body temperatures or analysed SC's stomach contents, it would be more difficult to speculate/offer unqualified opinion.

The problem with that is the "certifying" GP is only there to pronounce life extinct. Taking anal temperatures would require him disturbing the crime scene.

[Armchair Detective]

Unfortunately I think that might be wishful thinking.  Even if we had body temps confirming victims all died around the same time, supporters would say the results were fudged or there was some problem with the accuracy of the thermometer.   

Yes that's true. Supporters aren't satisfied with a reasonable doubt, they must always be looking for proof of innocence and confirmation bias does the rest.

The problem with that is the "certifying" GP is only there to pronounce life extinct. Taking anal temperatures would require him disturbing the crime scene.

Agree with that too. It wasn't standard practice and with everyone just assuming it was the murder suicide they had been primed to believe, nobody would have seen the need.

[Roch]

He thinks streaks of bloodstains that dripped on Sheila's right arm (from the gunshot wounds to her neck) are actually fight wounds that June inflicted on Sheila despite being shot five times in bed. Then Vanezis and EP conspired to conceal these from day one. 

If I had to believe in a conspiracy theory involving EP. It would be them sending in Bill Robertson as a saboteur to spread crazy ideas on this forum and to misdirect the campaign team. Bill could even be an alias for Mick Ainsley!   

Saying that the blood and marks everywhere on Sheila are from her gunshot wounds is just plain daft.  You cannot even describe how it could have been deposited in all the different places and in all the different forms it took.  You're trying to use the gunshot wounds as an explanation for everything. 

The funniest thing is, you believe Sheila is the killer. So you believe she shot to death five people (including herself) and including clubbing one of them, in the middle of the night, in a cluttered house full of furniture - yet managed to avoid even so much as a scrape. 

Your views are not credible and do not match the actual evidence.  If you persist in this stubborn silliness - you'll only end up getting your arse handed to you.  The fight wounds on the adults are verified and are within the submissions.

[Roch]

Some who have used this gun will not agree to the one I have in bold.

What fight wounds? Evidence of this please. Thanks

Boyce displayed how easy it was to use in 2012, on ITV.

Evidence is in the negatives. Negatives were released to the defence via the CCRC, after a gruelling campaign to obtain them. Needless to say, EP dragged their heels. If the defence had done their job properly in 1985/6, they might have been able to force EP to show all negatives then. What they did view, they did so hastily.

[Adam]

Saying that the blood and marks everywhere on Sheila are from her gunshot wounds is just plain daft.  You cannot even describe how it could have been deposited in all the different places and in all the different forms it took.  You're trying to use the gunshot wounds as an explanation for everything. 

The funniest thing is, you believe Sheila is the killer. So you believe she shot to death five people (including herself) and including clubbing one of them, in the middle of the night, in a cluttered house full of furniture - yet managed to avoid even so much as a scrape. 

Your views are not credible and do not match the actual evidence.  If you persist in this stubborn silliness - you'll only end up getting your arse handed to you.  The fight wounds on the adults are verified and are within the submissions.

Yes, impossible.

[lookout]

The only person who didn't have signs of a fight/struggle etc was JB himself ? Not even a scratch, when the first killings would have been the children. There were 3 adults who would have fought to have prevented those boys from being injured/ killed. What happened ? Describe why and not in the obvious simple fashion that guilters can only answer.

[Rob_]

Are you referring to the images in the public domain?  The pathologist for the defence did not complain about the quality. 

As far as I can see the only speculation and uncertainty over Sheila dying later than the other victims emanates from supporters.  No professional has ever claimed such and lawyers haven't challenged on Bamber's behalf.

Dr Vanezis deals with the contents of Sheila's stomach in Carol Ann Lee's book.  He said it was the same for all victims but he just noted it for Sheila.  Again all this was fact checked by Prof Knight for the defence at trial.

There's not a shred of evidence Sheila died significantly later than the other victims just a lot of nonsense from supporters.

PC Bird started taking photographs around 10.00 and finished just after midday so that is a minimum of around seven hours after Sheila apparently died, many people say the killings were around 2 am so could be around eight hours assuming Sheila was photographed first?

Rigour mortis usually starts around two to six hours after death and effects the small muscles first. I found the following extract interesting:

Rigor normally appears within the body around two hours after the deceased has passed away with – as we have already mentioned – the facial and upper neck and shoulder muscles first to visibly suffer from its effects. Many Scenes of Crime Officers (SOCO) have reported that upon discovering the deceased that their face might have taken on what looks to be a grimace; this is because the facial muscles have contracted as ATP drains from them.

Roch has also posted that Italian professors also stated that Sheila's time of death is consistent with being when the Police smashed their way into the house at 7.30. 

[Roch]

Yes, impossible.

Highly unlikely - which is why from the outset of the Ainsley era, such wounds presented a potential disaster to his instructions from Simpson and Robert.  Should we admire Ainsley for being utterly ruthless - or - should we regard Rivlin's defence as utterly useless? 

[Roch]

No professional has ever claimed such and lawyers haven't challenged on Bamber's behalf.

Italian medical professionals did. I believe Calvani and Meloni? Are Italian professionals not as good as English ones? I thought we had moved on from that train of thought.  GDS probably did argue the case for a later time. GDS is an easy target for disdain - that doesn't mean he is wrong though. He has since gone on record saying something like a million percent Bamber is innocent. He may be a rogue but I quite like him.

[Munksa]

Unfortunately I think that might be wishful thinking.  Even if we had body temps confirming victims all died around the same time, supporters would say the results were fudged or there was some problem with the accuracy of the thermometer.   

HAHA , no laughing matter but they will though. True Story...

[Munksa]

Boyce displayed how easy it was to use in 2012, on ITV.

Evidence is in the negatives. Negatives were released to the defence via the CCRC, after a gruelling campaign to obtain them. Needless to say, EP dragged their heels. If the defence had done their job properly in 1985/6, they might have been able to force EP to show all negatives then. What they did view, they did so hastily.

Boyce for the Defence is going to say that, isn't he? I have seen that clip and still disagee. Yes it's easy for those that have used THAT gun. Sheila hadn't.

[Munksa]

The only person who didn't have signs of a fight/struggle etc was JB himself ? Not even a scratch, when the first killings would have been the children. There were 3 adults who would have fought to have prevented those boys from being injured/ killed. What happened ? Describe why and not in the obvious simple fashion that guilters can only answer.

None on Sheila either. Bamber would have been fully covered and wearing gloves, he is well protected. The only place the marks would have been obvious was if he was attacked/ scratched on his gorgeous  face. Think about it.
 
Imo, Nevill and June were already in a bad state after the first few shots, it was in quick succession so not enough time for combat. No match to the gun wielding Bamber. Bamber was not checked if he had any marks and why should the Police do that anyways? He was no suspect at this stage.

[Jane]

None on Sheila either. Bamber would have been fully covered and wearing gloves, he is well protected. The only place the marks would have been obvious was if he was attacked/ scratched on his gorgeous  face. Think about it.
 
Imo, Nevill and June were already in a bad state after the first few shots, it was in quick succession so not enough time for combat. No match to the gun wielding Bamber. Bamber was not checked if he had any marks and why should the Police do that anyways? He was no suspect at this stage.

"Already in a bad state"!!! You bet they were, and not just physically. Imagine the psychological impact when the realization dawns that it's the child you took into your lives and provided for, who is hell bent on killing you! I truly believe he'd have wanted them to know who it was who was wielding the gun. I think he'd have wanted them to know why they had to die. I think he'd have wanted them to hear about how he hated the life the were forcing him to lead. It would have fuelled the anger he was feeling, spurring him on. 

[Munksa]

"Already in a bad state"!!! You bet they were, and not just physically. Imagine the psychological impact when the realization dawns that it's the child you took into your lives and provided for, who is hell bent on killing you! I truly believe he'd have wanted them to know who it was who was wielding the gun. I think he'd have wanted them to know why they had to die. I think he'd have wanted them to hear about how he hated the life the were forcing him to lead. It would have fuelled the anger he was feeling, spurring him on.

Chilling 😔