A Jeremy Scenario

[David1819]

Dr Craig at trial said the deaths could have occured at anytime during the previous night. If Sheila died much later than the other victims, to be more precise after the raid team entry Dr Craig would have definately known the difference. Of course the only other possibility is Dr. Craig lied. Everybody lied in this case, no one is left. Bloody hell this is a bigger than that of Princess Diana. But maybe because Jeremy Bamber is Lady Di's ex- step brother in law 😁 as claimed by the Boss Mr Teskowsky.

I saw a video of Mr Teskowsky in a fake American accent hahaha, absolutely bonkers. He is on a toilet seat I think with shift eyes as he speaks. Epic!

Fact is one cannot establish rigor and livor without examining the body certainly not from God knows how many  copies of the original one.

Dr Craig is not a pathologist and he never carried out a physical examination of bodies (see the Dickinson report attached). All he did was confirm they were dead. He failed to even notice Sheila had been shot twice. Based on the timings given in the witness statements, he spent less than 15 minutes at the crime scene.

[killingeve]

Dr Craig is not a pathologist and he never carried out a physical examination of bodies (see the Dickinson report attached). All he did was confirm they were dead. He failed to even notice Sheila had been shot twice. Based on the timings given in the witness statements, he spent less than 15 minutes at the crime scene.

He was a police surgeon of long experience and in a far better position to discern any notable differences in post mortem appearance of victims than the totally unqualified views of 'supporters'.  You then have all the officers at scene with hundreds of years experience between them of managing murder cases.  And two highly trained pathologists of long experience who had access to all the scene of crime images.

What evidence exists that Sheila died significantly later than the other victims?

[Munksa]

Dr Craig is not a pathologist and he never carried out a physical examination of bodies (see the Dickinson report attached). All he did was confirm they were dead. He failed to even notice Sheila had been shot twice. Based on the timings given in the witness statements, he spent less than 15 minutes at the crime scene.

Let's not split hairs, the point I was making is a Dr would know the difference between someone who died let's say at 2am and 7.40-8am

[Munksa]

Dr Craig is not a pathologist and he never carried out a physical examination of bodies (see the Dickinson report attached). All he did was confirm they were dead. He failed to even notice Sheila had been shot twice. Based on the timings given in the witness statements, he spent less than 15 minutes at the crime scene.

Did he FAIL to notice or he simply mentioned a shot. As far as I am aware he did the same for other victims too, June. And she was shot multiple times or did the Police shoot her too?

[Munksa]

The raid teams in their statements states seeing Sheila's  two GSWs. Are they all lying too?

[Roch]

The raid teams in their statements states seeing Sheila's  two GSWs. Are they all lying too?

Could be re-typed statements - how many are signed and have the originals ever been disclosed?  Mike Tesko used to argue that most TFG refused to testify at trial, however, I don't know upon what basis that claim was made.

[killingeve]

Here is how I currently believe Jeremy committed the shootings, if he is guilty.

1. Assumptions

I make the assumption that the crime is premeditated.  I do also have a 'spontaneous violence' scenario, but that is for another time.  It follows that the Jeremy who carries out the massacre in this scenario is deranged and evil.

One important feature of this scenario is that Sheila does not have to be moved from her bedroom to the master bedroom.  I am of the view that if Jeremy did this, Sheila had to be killed either in her own bedroom or the master bedroom, but without being moved from one to the other.  You will see how it happens in my scenario, if you read on.  What I posit here resolves major problems with the prosecution case that an honest person must confront and grapple with.  It means there is no perambulating Sheila, no need to explain Sheila at all.  Her involvement is relegated entirely to passivity - and, I believe, in a way that is at least plausible.  It also resolves a major problem with the blood evidence and crime scene sequencing concerning Nevill.  His blood is not needed in the master bedroom and he does not have to be upstairs at all.

Jeremy does not use the bicycle to go to and from the farm.  I suspect he did bring the bicycle back to the farmhouse at some point prior to the incident, perhaps with June's knowledge, under the guise that it would be used by Julie but in fact with the intention of using it on the night of the 6th./7th.  In the end, he decides against cycling, realising a ladies' push bike of that type would not be very practicable on the route he intends to take.

I also have Jeremy carrying out the massacre without the silencer.  I believe the preponderance of evidence is strongly against the use of a silencer in these shootings.  I think Jeremy would have considered using the silencer, as it would have benefits, but in the end he realised that the shooting should only last a few minutes and therefore on balance the ease-of-use of not having a silencer would be preferred over the advantages of sound suppression. 

You may draw whatever conclusions you like about my likely thoughts on the extended family's actions, based on my decision to omit a silencer from this scenario.  I will add nothing more as I do not wish to be sued for libel.  Such matters are extraneous to the thread anyway.

If Jeremy is guilty, I do not believe he planned the phone call from Nevill and his own call to the police.  I think his original intention was to just turn up the following morning and find them all dead.  He made the phone calls up 'on the hoof' that night after Nevill ended up in the kitchen.  Rightly or wrongly, Jeremy reasoned that there needed to be an explanation for why Nevill was found away from the rest of the family.  For those who doubt me on this point, I ask you to stop and consider it logically: Jeremy can't plan Nevill ending up in the kitchen!  It's next-to-impossible, so here I offer some emergency caulkhead. Unless Jeremy can improvise in this way, we are left with another major hole in the prosecution case.

I do not have Jeremy switching handsets around.  I think that has always been a red herring.  It was a theory propounded by the late journalist and miscarriage of justice campaigner, Bob Woffinden, as an explanation for his switch to a guilty stance in the Bamber case, but I took apart Woffinden's reasoning in a previous thread (last year, I think).

I believe Nevill died last.

2. Background

Jeremy is determined to kill his parents.  He plots to do this himself, but he also thinks about the possibility of inciting Sheila to do it, believing that her mental illness may make her vulnerable to suggestion.  Jeremy reasons that with his parents out of the way and Sheila institutionalised, he can accept potentially sharing his inheritance with Colin and ultimately the twins as they will be easier to influence.

Jeremy even considers inciting Colin and rants about his parents to Colin on the night of 3rd. August 1985 at a housewarming party.  Jeremy's imprecations fall on stony ground with Colin.  While Colin dislikes June in particular, he is equally put-off by Jeremy's obnoxious attitude.

Jeremy has been formulating a more ambitious plan in his mind in which he kills his parents and makes it look like Sheila has run amok.  This increasingly seems workable during July and early August as Sheila's mental state declines.  Jeremy is quite proud of this plan and how clever he is.  Then, at the housewarming party, he hears Colin mention that Sheila and the twins will be staying at the farm for a week or so.  Jeremy realises this is his chance to wipe out the entire family, including the twins, and decides he will put the plan into effect.  He hopes that maybe Colin might stay at the farmhouse too.

3. The scenario

It is 6th. August 1985, at White House Farm.  Sheila is in a bad way and Nevill and June are worried she will now have to be sectioned.  They would like to see more of the twins and decide to broach the topic of childcare with Sheila with a view to arranging a permanent move for her to the local area, perhaps living at Bourtree Cottage, with Jeremy moving in to the cottage at Gardeners Farm.  They hope this change of scene will improve her condition.

Between 8 p.m. and 9 p.m., Jeremy is collecting combined rape from the front field and bringing it in the trailer to the barn for processing.  The field is next to the house and every now and then he stops by the kitchen to listen in on a conversation at the kitchen table between Nevill, June and Sheila.  Jeremy is studying Sheila carefully and notes that she seems quite moody and lethargic.   

Jeremy takes the rifle out and loads it on the pretext that he is to shoot some rabbits.  He tests the rifle by firing one shot.  He then returns and leaves the rifle in the gun cupboard, still loaded.  This is necessary as he does not want his father messing around with the rifle and leaving it somewhere else.

Jeremy finishes work at 9.30 p.m., having agreed with his father that Nevill will collect in the last trailer of combined rape.  Len Foakes then sees Nevill come out to do just that.

Jeremy is keen to get away because he needs to prepare for the night ahead.

At 10 p.m., Jeremy calls Julie Mugford.  If Julie is his accomplice, then the purpose of this call is to signal the go-ahead for the plan that night and to make Julie aware she will receive a call later.  If Julie is not his accomplice, then the purpose of the call is to help support the idea that Jeremy is at Bourtree Cottage, not White House Farm.

Jeremy purposefully spends the next two or so hours watching TV.

At 10.05 p.m., Pamela Boutflour calls June and speaks to Sheila as well.  After the call with Pamela, Sheila retires to bed.  The twins are still awake and she decides to read them a story on the bed in the master bedroom while waiting for June to come up.  One of the twins brings a cuddly toy which he places on the bed.

June then retires to bed and Sheila is very tired and decides to sleep in the main bed alongside her mother, to be near the twins.

Nevill does not finish work until 11 p.m. and is obviously tired.  He knows that Sheila may be sleeping in the master bedroom to be near the twins and does not wish to disturb June, Sheila or the twins at this late hour, so stays downstairs.  His clothes are obviously grimy, sweaty and dirty, so he undresses and showers, then changes into pyjamas and perhaps makes himself a drink in the lounge or at the decanter set in the kitchen.  He intends to sleep in the den, or maybe the upstairs office at the far north end of the house.

At around midnight, when it is dark, Jeremy sneaks out of Bourtree Cottage and Goldhanger on foot, taking a route he has planned in advance.  He is dressed in dark clothing and wearing a hood and/or balaclava.  He is careful and it takes him some 50 minutes to reach the environs of White House Farm. 

Jeremy climbs through the window at about 1 a.m.  He makes a bit of a clatter.  Nevill is still quite alert in the lounge and hears something, so gets up to investigate.  Meanwhile, Jeremy makes his way to the den, takes out the rifle and some spare ammunition and makes his way back to the kitchen.  By this point, Nevill has returned to the lounge, having found nothing.

Oblivious to Nevill, Jeremy climbs the main staircase.  Nevill hears him and again gets up to investigate, this time discovering Jeremy, who turns and fires on his father before pursuing him back to the kitchen.
There is perhaps a struggle between the two, but in any event Jeremy gains the upper hand and leaves his father for dead, after firing shots into him. 

Nevill is still alive, barely, and drifts in and out of consciousness over the ensuing hours without moving much.

After negating his father, Jeremy can hear an inquiring voice from upstairs.  He re-loads and climbs the stairs quickly.  Seeing his mother on the main landing, he perhaps fires on her initially from the stair landing.  She staggers back into the master bedroom, and he then kills her.

Sheila is just waking and is confused and tired.  Jeremy quickly seizes her, pulls her off the bed and on to the floor, then shoots her in the neck area.  She does not have time to think or struggle.  He assumes she is dead.

Jeremy then re-loads, perhaps having to return to the den, from where he brings some ammunition into the kitchen.  He returns upstairs and now kills the twins.

Jeremy then returns to the master bedroom.  He leaves the Bible near Sheila, and then moves to place the rifle on or near her body.  It is at this point he realises she is still alive.  Jeremy now makes two mistakes.  He decides to shoot her again, to make sure, rather than suffocate her.  A two-shot suicide will always raise suspicion.  Having made that decision, he compounds one error with another by not partially re-loading the magazine (either before or after, it wouldn't have mattered), instead he spends the breech cartridge and leaves the magazine empty.  A related problem, arising from the first mistake, is that when shooting Sheila again, Jeremy does not fire at an angle roughly consistent with the first shot, with the consequence that he leaves a large triangulation between the two shots - which is inevitably suspicious when you consider the size of the weapon and the likely physical acuities of Sheila herself.  Yet this mistake was probably unavoidable once the first mistake was made.  Peter Venezis' evidence was, I believe, correct in this respect, in that Sheila was first shot when sitting up slightly.  In this scenario, that means that as Jeremy is pinning her down, he quickly fires, maybe rashly or inadvertently, having not quite got her into a flat position because she is beginning to struggle.

It is now roughly 1.45 a.m.  Jeremy has transfer bloodstains on him, so before he leaves, he changes clothes - borrowing some of Nevill's.  He also takes a small bag or rucksack and uses this to remove the stained clothing from the scene.  He then realises that he may have a problem.  Nevill is in the kitchen, away from the rest of the family.  He hadn't planned for this.  Won't there be questions about how Nevill got there, away from his own family, without simply disarming Sheila?  Won't there be questions about why Nevill didn't use the phone or flee for the den, or exit the house?  (In the event, we can ask these questions anyway about the case against Jeremy, but that's another discussion and has already been covered in previous threads).

I'm not necessarily suggesting Jeremy is mentally sharp enough to formulate these questions, as such, in his head there and then, but he has a general sense of the issues he may face once investigators come on the scene, due to Nevill being found at the other side of the house.  Jeremy decides that he needs to have Nevill make a phone call from the kitchen to someone else.  He can't create a 999 call because that would bring the emergency services to the location very quickly, perhaps immediately, and he also assumes such calls may be recorded or may involve him having to stay on the line for an extended period of time until police responders arrive; and anyway, he is not confident he can throw Nevill's voice.  (He may even have first tried making a 999 call, then thought better of it, and this may serve to explain why the Jeremy of today is so confident a 999 call was made.  It was an abortive call and nothing was said because he hung up immediately, but he may imagine there is a record of it somewhere). 

Jeremy then remembers that there is an answerphone connected to his phone line at Bourtree Cottage and a further plan forms in his mind, which he decides is quite clever.  He dials the number for Bourtree Cottage and the answerphone kicks in.  He then leaves the phone off the hook.  He finally departs the farmhouse at around 2.10 a.m. and makes his way back to Goldhanger by the route he came, now in quite a hurry, but still being quite careful. Along the way, he finds a discreet place just outside Goldhanger to hide the bag/rucksack for retrieval after dark during the forthcoming evening. Probably the south end of Fish Street, at a guess, if I know that part of Goldhanger right.

He makes it back to Bourtree Cottage by just before 3 a.m.  It is just turning to early twilight, still dark.

You may think Jeremy took a huge risk leaving the cottage at all due to the potential for being seen, and you would be right, but Jeremy reasons this out in his mind and decides that if he is seen on the way out or on the way back, he will say it was a burglar or intruder or somebody like that, and he suddenly also reassures himself that if he is seen on the way back, he can try to mix-up the times and conflate the sighting with him leaving after alerting the police, which is what he now intends to do.  In any event, he decides he can talk his way out of it.

At Bourtree Cottage, Jeremy is slightly confused about what to do next as he has complexified his own plans (perhaps needlessly).  Thinking quickly, he disconnects the answerphone and resolves to hide it somewhere in the house and dispose of it later that evening at the same time he goes to collect the incriminating bag.  He then quickly rings Julie Mugford.  It is now, maybe, 3.15 a.m.  He speaks to her relatively briefly.  If Julie is his accomplice, then this call would have been made anyway.  Collecting his thoughts, he then decides he needs to call the police, and events then follow the official narrative, with Jeremy speaking to PC Michael West at approximately 3.25 a.m.

For the purpose of building this scenario, I do not propose to explain why Jeremy would go to the effort of calling local police rather than simply dial 999.  There is a healthy argument that if Jeremy is guilty it is in his better interests to dial 999, and I am unconvinced by the arguments in the other direction typically trotted out by guilters.  Certainly, if Jeremy is guilty, his decision looks esoteric, but it may simply be down to his own impaired thinking in an unplanned situation.

Nevill is still alive until about 7 a.m. or so as the police are outside.  Possibly Sheila is also still alive.  But both are grievously injured.

In his story to the police, Jeremy mixes truth, fact and lies, telling them about the kitchen table conversation but also saying he left the rifle out in the scullery.  He remembers that he had left ammunition on the kitchen worktop, and realises that fits his narrative well as it makes it that bit easier for Sheila to load the weapon.

4. The firing order

My scenario requires Jeremy to reload twice (loading three times in all), each time charging the weapon fully by making up the magazine to 10 cartridges, totalling 11 cartridges - i.e. 10 in the magazine, one in the breech.  We have to assume this because it is a low calibre rifle.  Consequently, one problem I have is making the cartridge count work and I have had to add more spent cartridges than I think were discovered, along with a test fire.

We assume Jeremy starts with a full magazine of 10 cartridges plus one cartridge in the breech, i.e. 11 cartridges.

First Fusillade                       Shots on target       Wasted bullets                Remaining cartridges
                                                                                                                         Total  (Magazine)

First load                                                                                                     11       (10)   

TEST FIRE                                         0                              1                                 10       (9)                                                                                                                     

NEVILL                                              8                              0                                   2       (1)

First re-load: 9 cartridges                                                                             11       (10)

Second Fusillade     

JUNE                                                 7                              1                                 3         (2)

SHEILA                                             1                               0                                 2         (1)

Second re-load: 9 cartridges                                                                         11        (10)

Third Fusillade

DANIEL                                             5                               1                                5         (4)

NICHOLAS                                         3                               1                                1         (0)

SHEILA                                              1                               0                                0         (0)
 
                                                    25                            4     

5. Variation on this scenario

Nevill ending up in the kitchen is a big problem for Jeremy in this scenario, however I have thought of a variation on it in which Jeremy overhears Nevill mention at the kitchen table that evening that he will be out late and will sleep downstairs so as not to wake the others.  It may even have been discussed that Sheila would "again" sleep in the master bedroom, so as to be near the twins.  (Of course, Jeremy may also have been aware that Nevill sometimes slept downstairs, especially at that time of year, and anticipated this - perhaps intending to kill Nevill last, or first).

In that case, Jeremy would not lure Nevill upstairs.  You would also think that Jeremy would not invent the phone call, he would simply tell the police that Nevill's habit was to sleep downstairs, including when Sheila is asleep in the main bedroom.  That is what I believed at first, but then I realised there is a flaw in it, which is that Jeremy would then need to explain how it is that Sheila gets up and out of the main bedroom without disturbing June and how she gets hold of the rifle without alerting Nevill.  This may seem only a small problem, but in Jeremy's mind it may have loomed large and led him down a course of logical-intuitive reasoning to invent the phone call and pretend that Nevill was upstairs initially, Sheila was in her own bedroom, and Nevill followed Sheila downstairs.  You may think I am over-crediting Jeremy and he would not think of these things, but I think he could, as they are at root intuitive points that may occur to somebody in that situation.

This variation is only a change in Jeremy's rationalisations for his own actions at the scene.  It doesn't alter the technical details, including the firing order given in section 4 above.                   

Mr Bamber was shot four times upstairs evidenced by the casings.

Mrs Bamber was shot initially with her head on her pillow evidenced by the tracks of two of her gunshot wounds which correspond with exited bullets embedded in her pillow.

The fact the rifle is low calibre is irrelevant.  I have explained the lethality of the firearm to you previously by providing mathematical calculations based on the physics.

I have no idea what you mean by 'wasted bullets'?

[killingeve]

Mr Bamber was shot four times upstairs evidenced by the casings.

Mrs Bamber was shot initially with her head on her pillow evidenced by the tracks of two of her gunshot wounds which correspond with exited bullets embedded in her pillow.

The fact the rifle is low calibre is irrelevant.  I have explained the lethality of the firearm to you previously by providing mathematical calculations based on the physics.

I have no idea what you mean by 'wasted bullets'?

Also a total of 30 bullets were found on the kitchen top.  A full box contains 50.  A total of 26 were fired during the shootings.  Bamber's strongest subject at school was supposedly maths.  In any event it doesn't fit his narrative as you claim. 

[lookout]

If its not utter nonsense what are you relying on as evidence to show that Sheila died significantly later than the other victims?

My eyes ! Compare pics of june and Nevill and Sheila.

[Munksa]

Could be re-typed statements - how many are signed and have the originals ever been disclosed?  Mike Tesko used to argue that most TFG refused to testify at trial, however, I don't know upon what basis that claim was made.

I am open to suggestions. Unfortunately claims alone is no good.

Burden of proof lies on the ones making the claim. I am open minded, I believe and happy to be proved wrong but until then it's a conspiracy . Mind you I love a good  conspiracy reading one of Lady Di now, our very own Peter Vanezis is mentioned few times in the book 😁

[Jane]

Could be re-typed statements - how many are signed and have the originals ever been disclosed?  Mike Tesko used to argue that most TFG refused to testify at trial, however, I don't know upon what basis that claim was made.

In which direction are you suggesting that they may have been retyped, Roch? A wound added, or a wound subtracted? Providing one or two members of the TFG testified, it's of no relevance what the others did. Mike has made many claims, the origins of which are often quite mysterious, and usually untraceable.

[killingeve]

My eyes ! Compare pics of june and Nevill and Sheila.

With respect Lookout, and regardless of any nursing experience, you want us to believe that you can see something in authentic crime images that two highly qualified pathologists of long experience overlooked, including those at scene who also had the benefit of reviewing the images: a police surgeon and numerous officers ranging from a chief superintendent to constables with hundreds of years combined experience? 

Surely you can see that what you're asserting simply does not stand up? 

[Armchair Detective]

With respect Lookout, and regardless of any nursing experience, you want us to believe that you can see something in authentic crime images that two highly qualified pathologists of long experience overlooked, including those at scene who also had the benefit of reviewing the images: a police surgeon and numerous officers ranging from a chief superintendent to constables with hundreds of years combined experience? 

Surely you can see that what you're asserting simply does not stand up?

Most of the images are of very poor quality and questionable colour levels too.

However, I would say that the police bungling has left too much scope for speculation and uncertainty here.

Another aspect is Sheila's undigested stomach contents which were not analysed. If her last meal was at 9.30pm, she was dead by 2-3.am as it only takes 5 hours for the stomach to empty ( as I understand ) - Thus any Sheila scenario has to include her up having a snack in the small hours.

[killingeve]

Most of the images are of very poor quality and questionable colour levels too.

However, I would say that the police bungling has left too much scope for speculation and uncertainty here.

Another aspect is Sheila's undigested stomach contents which were not analysed. If her last meal was at 9.30pm, she was dead by 2-3.am as it only takes 5 hours for the stomach to empty ( as I understand ) - Thus any Sheila scenario has to include her up having a snack in the small hours.

Are you referring to the images in the public domain?  The pathologist for the defence did not complain about the quality. 

As far as I can see the only speculation and uncertainty over Sheila dying later than the other victims emanates from supporters.  No professional has ever claimed such and lawyers haven't challenged on Bamber's behalf.

Dr Vanezis deals with the contents of Sheila's stomach in Carol Ann Lee's book.  He said it was the same for all victims but he just noted it for Sheila.  Again all this was fact checked by Prof Knight for the defence at trial.

There's not a shred of evidence Sheila died significantly later than the other victims just a lot of nonsense from supporters. 

[Armchair Detective]

Are you referring to the images in the public domain?  The pathologist for the defence did not complain about the quality. 

As far as I can see the only speculation and uncertainty over Sheila dying later than the other victims emanates from supporters.  No professional has ever claimed such and lawyers haven't challenged on Bamber's behalf.

Dr Vanezis deals with the contents of Sheila's stomach in Carol Ann Lee's book.  He said it was the same for all victims but he just noted it for Sheila.  Again all this was fact checked by Prof Knight for the defence at trial.

There's not a shred of evidence Sheila died significantly later than the other victims just a lot of nonsense from supporters.

Yes, the ones in the public domain, or more specifically, this site. Unless I have missed some, the only photo's of June are impossible to compare with the better ones of Sheila and there are no angles that would show livor mortis on Sheila.

I am agreeing with you that there is no evidence that Sheila died later than the others but it has to be said that if the police had taken body temperatures or analysed SC's stomach contents, it would be more difficult to speculate/offer unqualified opinion.