Author Topic: Could this have happened.  (Read 3750 times)

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Offline Bubo bubo

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Could this have happened.
« on: July 31, 2021, 03:43:PM »

HOW IT HAPPENED?


First a few points


The female body seen through the window if true.

It could not be Sheila because there was no vertical staining to her nightdress, which would be inevitable if shot in the neck. The only person it could have been if true is June. She could have received some wounds or been knocked to the ground by SC who had run out of bullets. She may have just been sleeping near her dead husband with SC having sought more ammunition and gone upstairs and shot herself thinking June dead. Was she playing Possum?

If June was in the kitchen could she have heard the police and the loud hailer if they were at the front of the building? Had she acquired a weapon (Shotgun?) Had she been nursing Nevill and collapsed through exhaustion. Had she been trying to access the phone and was she successful? All are possibilities. Also a possibility is that she knew when the police were about to enter because she heard them forcing entry and sought refuge in the box room.

In other posts I have suggested that she may have made it to the phone to maybe summon help. If she did it would not have been a one-way conversation. The police would want information about the others in the house and their state. If she did tell them about SC she could only have said that she was alive or did not know because if she told them she was dead the police would have made immediate entry. It is also possible that she received further injuries whilst on the phone or was given advice as to what action she should take.

There is no way EP wanted June alive before entry so they came up with the misidentification of Nevill to get around that issue.

Junes physical appearance

I suggest she would look in ‘a right state’ she may have been in a fight and showed it. Whether wounded or not it is possible that her nightie was heavily stained with blood from others but most likely from Nevill she would have wiped her hands on her nightie. If wounded, there would be signs of blood even if she subsequently applied some first aid.

The Box Room

This room as a sanctuary has unique qualities. Firstly, it has two exit/entry points. If pursued via one you could duck out through another. Both doors could be lockable to say, prevent anyone from the twin’s room entering and disturbing sleep. It was large but without photographs we do not know how much space there was or whether there were objects inside you could hide behind. Perhaps the most important feature was the positioning and opening direction of the doors. No one can enter at either point without being fully exposed. There is no cover from a door. If someone is in there with a loaded weapon you would be a sitting duck upon entry.

It is possible that Sheila was in the box room in the early stages. Nevill and June dare not enter. She may have been saying stuff such as “You will not take my boys away from me” If you try I will shoot you. In such circumstances Nevill and June could have descended to the kitchen to phone JB. It also meant that June was aware that it provided a place of relative safety.

Raid team statements


I think given the circumstances of this case that we all would agree that whatever they have said or say is likely to be false. They all sing from the same hymn sheet and despite differences generally back each other’s versions of events as far as the main structure of the event with some minor differences in detail. I have written about the reconstruction using video of the restaged scene and will post this again if required/requested

Scenarios


There are number of alternative scenario to the one I have chosen as to how the raid team was deployed. I can demonstrate others but we cannot know exactly how it played out. It is for illustrative purposes only.

The catastrophic outcome.

There are three teams. Team one responsible for ground floor. Team two responsible for SC’s and main bedroom. Team three to use back stairs. Checking out the other ground floor rooms before heading upstairs for further checks and to rescue the twins if possible.

Working together teams one and two to check ground floor from kitchen through to main hall. At this point team one to check dining room and lounge whilst team two ascends main staircase.

It is possible that SC shoots herself as team two approaches. A quick glance into and around the main bedroom shows no bodies. They make their way to SC’s and find her dead on her bed.

Pictures of Sheila’s bed show a large item of material. This could have been used to cover the blood that ran from her neck onto the right hand side of the bed.

They return to main bedroom. Team one reports from ground floor “one dead male” and team two reports “one dead female”.

June hears the shot but thinking it a ruse to draw her out she stays put. When she hears “one dead female” she exits box room.

Startled by her appearance (was she armed?) she is shot by TFG officer.

Alternatively, they check the main bedroom before SC’s. whist returning, they hear the box room door opening leading to a similar result.

Another possibility is that June hears team three entering the twins room she is spooked and exits the box room.

There are numerous possible ways it could have happened but they all involve June presenting herself in a manner that startles the TFG leading to a nervous reflex response and her death.

Eight minutes later the message “three further bodies found upstairs” is radioed.

I hope this helps. Please feel free to ask any sensible questions. I do not have all the answers but would argue my examination of this case is, if nothing else, insightful.

« Last Edit: April 16, 2025, 04:14:PM by Bubo bubo »

Offline Rob_

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Re: Could this have happened.
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2021, 04:40:PM »
Thanks for a interesting post, do we know for sure which window was being looked through when the police first reported a female body?

I would also be interested to know what could actually be seen through the kitchen window? was it even possible to see NB? I have seen some posts saying it would not have been possible to see him where he lay?

The critical shot to June does have all the hallmarks of a crack marksman leading to some people saying this proves it was JB, but fits well with your theory of it being a shot from the police.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Could this have happened.
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2021, 05:40:PM »
Prior to the timing when both of these images were taken ['showing position and shape, of the arms and both hands of 'June Bamber' and 'Sheila Caffell'], both could have been in possession of a rifle - but how could this have been the case, with only one. 22 rifle exhibited, as relevant?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2021, 03:20:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: Could this have happened.
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2021, 06:22:PM »
Thanks for a interesting post, do we know for sure which window was being looked through when the police first reported a female body?

I would also be interested to know what could actually be seen through the kitchen window? was it even possible to see NB? I have seen some posts saying it would not have been possible to see him where he lay?

The critical shot to June does have all the hallmarks of a crack marksman leading to some people saying this proves it was JB, but fits well with your theory of it being a shot from the police.

You need to track Mike T's posts for answer. I believe he said he had visited WHF and actually looked through the kitchen window. In his estimation NB would be hard to see if he was in the position found. The angle, is he says, too acute. As far as which window is concerned we only have the EP take on that though there have been arguments as to whether their descriptions of how they approached do not represent the geography of the farm. A bit of a dead end maybe.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 06:28:PM by Bubo bubo »

Offline Rob_

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Re: Could this have happened.
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2021, 06:43:PM »
Ok thanks I have a lot of researching to do!

Offline David1819

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Re: Could this have happened.
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2021, 06:46:PM »
You need to track Mike T's posts for answer. I believe he said he had visited WHF and actually looked through the kitchen window. In his estimation NB would be hard to see if he was in the position found. The angle, is he says, too acute. As far as which window is concerned we only have the EP take on that though there have been arguments as to whether their descriptions of how they approached do not represent the geography of the farm. A bit of a dead end maybe.


I have attached a photo taken from that very window. Nevil could easily have been seen through it.

Offline Rob_

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Re: Could this have happened.
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2021, 10:58:PM »
Thanks for posting the picture this is useful, though depending what was on the draining board, window sill and height of the person looking etc. the view might be quite obstructed?

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: Could this have happened.
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2021, 09:00:AM »
Thanks for posting the picture this is useful, though depending what was on the draining board, window sill and height of the person looking etc. the view might be quite obstructed?
Here a couple of pictures from this site. They outline the arguments made by some. It  is a moot point but not critical. We cannot resolve this issue.

Offline Rob_

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Re: Could this have happened.
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2021, 09:32:AM »
Thanks I think without any good evidence to say otherwise, it was probably the kitchen window? If it was a wounded June who was spotted she would have wanted to be near NB.

I am surprised though that anyone would even look through the window, if it was thought someone with a rifle was in the house?

It is not so much the report of two bodies found on entry, but the second mistake of three further bodies found upstairs five in total I find hard to accept? and no one correcting this?
 

Offline lookout

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Re: Could this have happened.
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2021, 09:44:AM »
So the second body would have been where ? ( 2 bodies in kitchen ) It must have been visible with the kitchen light on.

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: Could this have happened.
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2021, 09:51:AM »

I have attached a photo taken from that very window. Nevil could easily have been seen through it.

I do have a reservation with this picture. It could have been taken on a time lapse shot with the camera on the internal windowsill.

Offline Rob_

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Re: Could this have happened.
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2021, 01:51:PM »
So the second body would have been where ? ( 2 bodies in kitchen ) It must have been visible with the kitchen light on.

Yes in the kitchen, the body being either SC or June with NB being out of view. But if it was the other window then this confuses everything?

If it was NB that was seen would he really be mistaken for a female? the police would have had descriptions of all the people in the house they would have known the two girls were dark haired and NB grey.

But I find it hard that on entry this was not immediately picked up if it was a mistake?

Offline Rob_

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Re: Could this have happened.
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2021, 01:56:PM »
I do have a reservation with this picture. It could have been taken on a time lapse shot with the camera on the internal windowsill.

There is a reflection in the picture so it could have been taken outside? but with a wide angle lens this could get much closer to the glass then a human eye could?

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: Could this have happened.
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2021, 02:21:PM »
There is a reflection in the picture so it could have been taken outside? but with a wide angle lens this could get much closer to the glass then a human eye could?

 I agree but this is an aspect of the case that cannot be determined with the information at our disposal. Both sides can claim their version is the truth. However, who would believe the story of police who burned significant evidence on the day.

Offline Rob_

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Re: Could this have happened.
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2021, 02:50:PM »
I agree but this is an aspect of the case that cannot be determined with the information at our disposal. Both sides can claim their version is the truth. However, who would believe the story of police who burned significant evidence on the day.

Yes four murders and a suicide or five murders and they are burning evidence unheard of!

Either they knew for sure JB was innocent or they were covering up something?