Author Topic: Guardian 12th March  (Read 6837 times)

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Offline lookout

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2021, 01:25:PM »
Notes pertaining to RWB's blood group will have been included in files presented to the CCRC. It was never anything new that two blood groups were found to be the same, it's just that the information hadn't been mentioned or shown at the trial.

Offline Adam

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2021, 01:31:PM »
Notes pertaining to RWB's blood group will have been included in files presented to the CCRC. It was never anything new that two blood groups were found to be the same, it's just that the information hadn't been mentioned or shown at the trial.

Two questions here -

How would RB know Sheila's blood group?

How would Bamber know RB's blood group?


One answer - They wouldn't.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2021, 01:37:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline lookout

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2021, 01:35:PM »
Two questions here -

How would RB know Sheila's blood group.

How would Bamber know RB's blood group.


One answer - They wouldn't.




Adam, I've already said how RWB would have known  ::)
All info via the media and police as the Boutflours and Eatons were well in with the force as regards gathering info.

Offline Adam

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2021, 01:41:PM »



Adam, I've already said how RWB would have known  ::)
All info via the media and police as the Boutflours and Eatons were well in with the force as regards gathering info.

The media wouldn't know or disclose Sheila's blood group.

Be surprised if the police did. Do you believe the police and relatives worked together on the silencer?

Thought you believe Sheila's blood fell into the silencer while she was committing the massacre.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2021, 03:21:PM »
As I stated above, if a relative or relatives did plant blood in the silencer, they may not have cared about the blood group or other forensics.  The objective may have been simply to plant blood in the silencer that was recognisably human.  The import of doing so may not have been fully appreciated and the evidence may have been then interpreted against Jeremy.  That two of the people involved supposedly have the same blood group is not a coincidence - it's statistically quite likely.

Offline Bill Robertson

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2021, 04:40:PM »
As I stated above, if a relative or relatives did plant blood in the silencer, they may not have cared about the blood group or other forensics.  The objective may have been simply to plant blood in the silencer that was recognisably human.  The import of doing so may not have been fully appreciated and the evidence may have been then interpreted against Jeremy.  That two of the people involved supposedly have the same blood group is not a coincidence - it's statistically quite likely.
I agree entirely, and has anyone ever seen the blood group analysis source materials? How does anyone know for sure that Sheila Caffell's blood group is what the police say it is? My understanding is that the original laboratory documentation stating the blood group analysis is among the papers that Essex Police refuse to disclose. I believe that Robert Boutflour dripped his blood inside the silencer so as to keep the investigation going at a time when the police had absolutely no evidence upon which to prosecute Jeremy and the case was about to be 'shut down'. I also believe that he was assured that Essex Police could 'fix' the paperwork to make it appear that the blood came from Sheila Caffell.

At trial there was a deliberate deception. As a way of obscuring the information that had come to light about the origin of the blood, i.e. it was identical for Sheila Caffell and Robert Boutflour, it appears that the police or the prosecution deliberately produced a list which the prosecution referred to at the trial, but the list omitted any of the relative’s names, including, crucially, Robert Boutflour.

Therefore when giving scientific evidence, forensic scientist John Hayward made reference to a list and as a result Hayward was able to tell the court that the only person on the list whose blood was found inside the silencer was Sheila Caffell. Incidentally, this confirms beyond any doubt that the prosecution QC, Anthony Arlidge, was also aware of the deception being practiced by Hayward, for it was Arlidge  who asked him to consult the ‘list’. The questioning of Hayward was purposely misleading:
The following exchange took place in relation to blood found inside the silencer.
Q) Mr Arlidge: Did you test further any of that blood?
A) Hayward: I did, Sir, and found that this blood was also of human origin and I obtained grouping reactions for group A PGM1+EAP BA AK1 Hp 2-1
Q) Mr Arlidge: Looking at those items you have given… it appears that those correspond with the grouping that you found for Sheila Caffell?
A) Hayward: That is correct Sir
Q) Mr Arlidge: But not with anybody else on our list?
A) Hayward: That is correct Sir

The list that Arlidge referred to contained the names of the five victims plus Jeremy Bamber. Therefore Mr Hayward answered truthfully that the only person on that list with the blood group A PGM1+EAP BA AK1 Hp 2-1 was Sheila Caffell.

However, Mr Hayward was aware that blood samples had been taken from some of Jeremy Bamber’s relatives and the blood was also an identical match for Robert Boutflour. Mr Hayward did not disclose this to the Court. It is prima facie evidence that Hayward and Arlidge were engaged in a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice as both men knew that the Jury was not being told the full story.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2021, 04:58:PM »
As far as I'm aware Robert Boutflour didn't give a blood sample.

guest29835

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2021, 05:31:PM »
As far as I'm aware Robert Boutflour didn't give a blood sample.

Actually, I believe he did.  As I have mentioned already to Adam, blood was taken and analysed from family members in 1986 in the run-up to the trial.  I will find the document and post it up at some point.

Offline lookout

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2021, 08:19:PM »
That's interesting about Sheila's blood Bill as it's not unusual for siblings to have the same blood group as their mother and neither of the twins did.

Offline Adam

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2021, 09:08:PM »
Actually, I believe he did.  As I have mentioned already to Adam, blood was taken and analysed from family members in 1986 in the run-up to the trial.  I will find the document and post it up at some point.

At some point.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2021, 10:12:PM »
At some point.

It's on the Forum, Adam.  Mike uploaded it.  Just use the search tool and find it, or wait for me to upload it.  I'll do it to my schedule, not yours.

Offline Bill Robertson

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2021, 04:52:AM »
As far as I'm aware Robert Boutflour didn't give a blood sample.
DI Cook created ‘Action 1627’ on 19 September 1986. With the Trial just weeks away, DI Cook asked for blood samples to be taken from relatives Robert and David Boutflour and David and Christine Eaton, for the purpose “to prove the origin of the sample inside the silencer” .

Then on Monday 29 September 1986, just 3 days before the Trial began on Thursday 2nd October 1986, the Police received the result of these tests from Graham Craddock, Head of Biology at the Forensic Science Laboratory saying that the blood in the silencer was compatible with either Robert Boutflour or Sheila Caffell. His findings concluded that :
“I have considered the grouping results given in my Statement dated 15 November 1985 and in Miss HOWARD'S Statement dated 29 September 1986. Judged by these grouping results alone, the blood from the sound moderator (22) could have come from either Sheila CAFFELL or R W BOUTFLOUR. "

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2021, 02:33:PM »
DI Cook created ‘Action 1627’ on 19 September 1986. With the Trial just weeks away, DI Cook asked for blood samples to be taken from relatives Robert and David Boutflour and David and Christine Eaton, for the purpose “to prove the origin of the sample inside the silencer” .

Then on Monday 29 September 1986, just 3 days before the Trial began on Thursday 2nd October 1986, the Police received the result of these tests from Graham Craddock, Head of Biology at the Forensic Science Laboratory saying that the blood in the silencer was compatible with either Robert Boutflour or Sheila Caffell. His findings concluded that :
“I have considered the grouping results given in my Statement dated 15 November 1985 and in Miss HOWARD'S Statement dated 29 September 1986. Judged by these grouping results alone, the blood from the sound moderator (22) could have come from either Sheila CAFFELL or R W BOUTFLOUR. "
It could be argued that Robert Boutflour gave a sample of his blood because he had nothing to hide. Do we know whether the blood was analysed generically as 32% of the population or was it narrowed down to the 8%?

Offline Adam

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2021, 05:10:PM »
DI Cook created ‘Action 1627’ on 19 September 1986. With the Trial just weeks away, DI Cook asked for blood samples to be taken from relatives Robert and David Boutflour and David and Christine Eaton, for the purpose “to prove the origin of the sample inside the silencer” .

Then on Monday 29 September 1986, just 3 days before the Trial began on Thursday 2nd October 1986, the Police received the result of these tests from Graham Craddock, Head of Biology at the Forensic Science Laboratory saying that the blood in the silencer was compatible with either Robert Boutflour or Sheila Caffell. His findings concluded that :
“I have considered the grouping results given in my Statement dated 15 November 1985 and in Miss HOWARD'S Statement dated 29 September 1986. Judged by these grouping results alone, the blood from the sound moderator (22) could have come from either Sheila CAFFELL or R W BOUTFLOUR. "

Thanks. Can you post the link.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2021, 05:13:PM »
Never heard of that before. Witnesses being asked to give blood samples.

RB apparently being in the same blood group as Sheila, was not brought up in 1986, 2002 & 2012. So surprised it is being brought up now. Most probably properganda.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 05:52:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.