Author Topic: Guardian 12th March  (Read 6842 times)

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Offline Adam

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2021, 05:38:PM »
Yes, as stated above, it's on the Forum somewhere as Mike posted up the document.  I also downloaded it, so I'll post it up as and when I get round to it.

Thanks. This was not brought up by the defence in 1986. It was not included in the 2002 COA.

A valid source needs to be provided.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Roch

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2021, 06:12:PM »



Even with the addition of further evidence ?

I'm afraid so Lookout. I think the case is political. 

guest29835

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2021, 06:41:PM »
I'm afraid so Lookout. I think the case is political.

You mean due to the impact a successful appeal could have on confidence in the judiciary?

To be honest, I personally doubt that.  Unless some startling new evidence comes to light, or there is a radical shift in the interpretation of existing evidence, I think allowing the appeal could easily just be spun as a 'reasonable doubt' case - in effect, just 'one of those things' - rather than a major embarrassment to the judiciary.  Any damage to public confidence in the system would be thereby minimised, and it would all quickly blow over and be forgotten in the public mind.  It is true that the British judiciary are notoriously poor at institutional introspection, humility and self-reflection, but what I have just outlined is their typical method of dealing with mistakes that can't be hidden any longer: brush it under the carpet.

I think the basic problem Jeremy has is that the case against him was weak, but so is the case in his defence.  This is perhaps a unique criminal case, in that regard.  The crime scene is an inscrutable black box.  There was never one thing that, as such, proved Jeremy was guilty, and he shouldn't have been convicted; but, he was convicted, and so the burden shifts to him, and that has exposed the correlative problem that there isn't one thing, as such, that proves him innocent - though there is scope for reasonable doubt, so it becomes a matter of whether judges are willing to recognise this and exercise their discretion in Jeremy's favour.

Realistically, I doubt appeal judges spend hours looking through case papers, and we know they're not on discussion forums like this.  They come to cases fresh and naive about the underlying fact matrix and agendas involved, and (assuming there is a third appeal) this case will be one of maybe a dozen appeals they hear at any one time.  The judges will place heavy reliance on what the parties tell them and won't develop a deeper understanding of the case.

Maybe in rare cases such as this, the whole thing should be placed under the supervision of 'examining judges' who investigate the case thoroughly over several years in the manner of a lengthy public inquiry and come to in-depth conclusions and make wider general recommendations about useful reforms to the system.  But that would be an expensive system to run and it would also require the sort of institutional introspection that the British judiciary notoriously struggles with.

A realistic way to resolve the Bamber case would be to simply release him on the basis that he has served the time.  The problem with that solution is that it doesn't suit either party.  People like Steve will jump up and down screaming and shouting that you can't release a mass murderer, even if he's 90 and walking with a zimmer frame.  Meanwhile, Jeremy may not want to be released as a convicted mass murderer, and given that he would be a convicted child killer, there will be expensive security measures needed.

Offline JackieD

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2021, 07:54:PM »
QC you were definitely leaning towards Jeremy being guilty so I was wondering has that changed. Also going by what Bill has written today regarding six years of research there looks to have been undeniable cover ups in this case. On top of this we have the silencer evidence was it planted???  What happens to the people responsible? Then on top of that we have Mugford??
Can these people face justice?
How do you compensate someone for 30 years of their life, no wife, no children

Imagine that happening to anyone, I really have no idea how Jeremy has survived these years
Just imagine if the general public knew half of this?
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline lookout

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2021, 08:39:PM »
I'm afraid so Lookout. I think the case is political.






Well we are a democratic society and there is such a thing as political freedom. Won't Human Rights come into it ?

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2021, 08:49:PM »
What do you know about Mark Newby? I note he is careful not to say that he believes Jeremy Bamber to be innocent. https://crimejottings.com/2021/03/12/jeremy-bamber-the-story-yet-to-be-told/

Offline lookout

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2021, 09:40:PM »
Though he does say that as the case goes on they hope to show parts of the evidence which supports the fact that every part of the case appears to be untrue and if accepted by the Commission then in turn the Court of Appeal should lead to Jeremy Bamber being exonerated.
I'd say that Mark Newby has every faith in the evidence and does believe him to be innocent.

Offline Roch

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2021, 09:51:PM »
What do you know about Mark Newby? I note he is careful not to say that he believes Jeremy Bamber to be innocent. https://crimejottings.com/2021/03/12/jeremy-bamber-the-story-yet-to-be-told/

Thanks for posting that up.  I think he's gone beyond saying Jeremy Bamber is innocent. He seems to believe that they have pieced together a significant picture of what really took place that night and afterwards.  Whatever happens in our life time in terms of how the evidence is received and processed by the authorities may be irrelevant. I fully expect future generations to accept the defence case virtually without question. That means there's going to be a lot of tarnished reputations as well. JB's place in history as an MOJ is assured. I just have a feeling this will mainly be posthumous for those involved.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 10:01:PM by Roch »

Offline Roch

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2021, 10:11:PM »
When I say virtually without question, I mean in terms of SC's culpability in the shootings and the subsequent police malpractice to frame JB. What I did notice is that Newby is basing a call from Nevill to police as one of the grounds. I hope that doesn't backfire, as it is a claim which has many detractors on both sides of the fence.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2021, 10:14:PM »
Thanks for posting that up.  I think he's gone beyond saying Jeremy Bamber is innocent. He seems to believe that they have pieced together a significant picture of what really took place that night and afterwards.  Whatever happens in our life time in terms of how the evidence is received and processed by the authorities may be irrelevant. I fully expect future generations to accept the defence case virtually without question. That means there's going to be a lot of tarnished reputations as well. JB's place in history as an MOJ is assured. I just have a feeling this will mainly be posthumous for those involved.
I respect your sincerity and lookout's and know it must be infuriating for his advocates, but I'm wondering why this is all so hush-hush after 35 years. I also wonder about the 30 year rule. I've been researching the Dunblane case, where documents are to remain withheld for 100 years (I'll post tomorrow but apologize in advance that it's mostly cut and paste) and I would have thought that had there been anything damning to be released the authorities would have ensured that we're all dead before it was made public.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 10:30:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2021, 10:17:PM »
When I say virtually without question, I mean in terms of SC's culpability in the shootings and the subsequent police malpractice to frame JB. What I did notice is that Newby is basing a call from Nevill to police as one of the grounds. I hope that doesn't backfire, as it is a claim which has many detractors on both sides of the fence.
I really don't think this is the best avenue or the Defence to pursue. You'd be far better arguing that the conviction is unsafe due to Sheila's mental health issues. I mean, there's no harm in libelling the dead, is there..

Offline handymanz

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DNA profile from Blood on the Silencer.
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2021, 04:12:AM »
If there is sufficient blood on the silencer for a DNA profile, it is possible to carry out a familiall DNA test on Sheila's surviving blood relatives if any can be traced.

At least this could help identify if it is indeed her blood. But of course even if it's proven to be her blood it has to be ascertained as to how it got there.

Offline Adam

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Re: DNA profile from Blood on the Silencer.
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2021, 06:00:AM »
If there is sufficient blood on the silencer for a DNA profile, it is possible to carry out a familiall DNA test on Sheila's surviving blood relatives if any can be traced.

At least this could help identify if it is indeed her blood. But of course even if it's proven to be her blood it has to be ascertained as to how it got there.

The silencer stopped being available for further testing decades ago.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2021, 06:03:AM »
Though he does say that as the case goes on they hope to show parts of the evidence which supports the fact that every part of the case appears to be untrue and if accepted by the Commission then in turn the Court of Appeal should lead to Jeremy Bamber being exonerated.
I'd say that Mark Newby has every faith in the evidence and does believe him to be innocent.

'Every part'. Wow.

The 2012 CCRC submission was based on who burnt Nevill's back.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2021, 06:21:AM »
It's straight forward that the blood in the silencer will be Sheila's.

She received two contact shots in a location with high blood flow.

Nug's theory that RB shot himself with the silencer is not credible. There is no source that RB was in the same blood group as Sheila.

David's theory that the relatives put diluted blood into the silencer is also not credible. There is no evidence this can be done.

There is no possibility the relatives would have these ideas as well as scratching the aga.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.