Author Topic: Lest We Forget...................  (Read 39857 times)

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Offline lookout

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #420 on: August 20, 2020, 10:32:PM »
Stan the man struck a deal with Dovey and JM was granted immunity, so the episode never reached trial.

guest7363

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #421 on: August 20, 2020, 10:34:PM »
Stan the man struck a deal with Dovey and JM was granted immunity, so the episode never reached trial.
I would have thought immunity, but the DPP and Bank dropping charges, is that Immunity Lookout?

Offline lookout

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #422 on: August 20, 2020, 10:34:PM »
Where there's a will there's --always-- been a way in this case. You can't have a prosecuting witness in the stand who's committed fraud.

guest7363

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #423 on: August 20, 2020, 10:39:PM »
Where there's a will there's --always-- been a way in this case. You can't have a prosecuting witness in the stand who's committed fraud.
The Jury were told about the fraud Lookout

guest29835

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #424 on: August 20, 2020, 10:41:PM »
Where there's a will there's --always-- been a way in this case. You can't have a prosecuting witness in the stand who's committed fraud.

Exactly, but it's not just that Lookout.  Remember, it was admitted that she had committed fraud and the trial judge misinformed the jury by telling them she had been cautioned for it.  This, I think, is why the 2002 appeal court didn't take the point very seriously, because they took the view that the jury had already been given the worst case scenario regarding Julie Mugford's offending, a caution being the normal disposal for minor cheque offences, and since Julie Mugford's evidence depended on her believability, there was no prejudice to Jeremy Bamber.

The point they overlook is that there was a wider scope of considerations for the jury.  It was not just whether she had committed dishonest acts in the past, but also whether she was entering into a deal with the police in which she was pressured to give certain evidence in return for various matters being dropped.  When the judge misled the jury on this point, it was part of a narrative, which is continued by guilters on here, in which Julie Mugford's trial evidence is naively regarded as voluntary and spontaneous and the organic outcome of her own conscience, rather than something she was pressured into doing by Essex Police.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #425 on: August 20, 2020, 10:56:PM »
Exactly, but it's not just that Lookout.  Remember, it was admitted that she had committed fraud and the trial judge misinformed the jury by telling them she had been cautioned for it.  This, I think, is why the 2002 appeal court didn't take the point very seriously, because they took the view that the jury had already been given the worst case scenario regarding Julie Mugford's offending, a caution being the normal disposal for minor cheque offences, and since Julie Mugford's evidence depended on her believability, there was no prejudice to Jeremy Bamber.

The point they overlook is that there was a wider scope of considerations for the jury.  It was not just whether she had committed dishonest acts in the past, but also whether she was entering into a deal with the police in which she was pressured to give certain evidence in return for various matters being dropped.  When the judge misled the jury on this point, it was part of a narrative, which is continued by guilters on here, in which Julie Mugford's trial evidence is naively regarded as voluntary and spontaneous and the organic outcome of her own conscience, rather than something she was pressured into doing by Essex Police.

How did the police know about the CBF in order to pressure her in the first place? Unless she told them, they wouldn't have known.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Adam

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #426 on: August 20, 2020, 10:57:PM »
How did the police know about the CBF in order to pressure her in the first place? Unless she told them, they wouldn't have known.

Thought Bamber told his lawyers.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest7363

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #427 on: August 20, 2020, 11:00:PM »
Thought Bamber told his lawyers.
He would have done. They would have asked Julie if she was hiding any past I would have thought?

guest29835

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #428 on: August 20, 2020, 11:02:PM »
How did the police know about the CBF in order to pressure her in the first place? Unless she told them, they wouldn't have known.

I am willing to believe she volunteered this to police, but much depends on context.  It's said that she was the one who went to the police, but this is not true.  Even if we believe the official story, it remains the case that she was press-ganged after telling several people that Jeremy was a murderer.

She had already told Jeremy about the cheque offences.  The police would have told her that she could be regarded as an accomplice to murder, and they demanded she tell them everything, so she did.  Both she and the police will have anticipated that Jeremy and his defence would bring her offending up, so there was no point in pretending it hadn't happened.

Offline Adam

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #429 on: August 20, 2020, 11:09:PM »
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=289.0

Julie is saying she volunteered the information to the police.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #430 on: August 20, 2020, 11:18:PM »
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=289.0

Julie is saying she volunteered the information to the police.

The thing to bear in mind here is that, irrespective of whether Jeremy is guilty, he was already involved in unrelated criminal activity.  This means he will have been coy with the police about his girlfriend, Julie, as some of what he was up to would have involved Julie or Julie would have known about it.  This is why I am inclined to take the view that Julie did volunteer the cheque offences to the police, but there is a caveat I must add.

It could well be (I rather suspect it is the case) that Julie's criminality was much more extensive than has been admitted and the only reason we know about the cheque offences is because she happened to mention it to Jeremy and, for this reason, realised that she had to confess it to the police.

Offline Adam

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #431 on: August 20, 2020, 11:24:PM »
Doubt that Julie was involved in much other criminal activity.

She had to find time to pass her first degree and was in the process of doing her second - an honours degree.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 11:27:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #432 on: August 20, 2020, 11:30:PM »
Doubt that Julie was involved in much other criminal activity.

She had to find time to pass her first degree and was in the process of doing her second - an honours degree.

People studying for degrees don't commit crime.  Except when they do, like Julie did. 

Thanks Adam.  I'm slowly getting there.

Offline Adam

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #433 on: August 20, 2020, 11:31:PM »
People studying for degrees don't commit crime.  Except when they do, like Julie did. 

Thanks Adam.  I'm slowly getting there.

People doing two degrees have to spend time studying.

But look forward to you providing information on the other crimes you believe she did.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 11:32:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #434 on: August 20, 2020, 11:35:PM »
Julie told the police about the caravan break in, drug dealing & cheque book fraud.

The police would have advised her & Susan Battersby to approach the bank and pay the money back. Which they did do.

The bank decided not to prosecute.

All straight forward. As usual.

'Only I know what really happened that night'.