Author Topic: Lest We Forget...................  (Read 39815 times)

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Offline Jane

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Lest We Forget...................
« on: August 10, 2020, 09:03:AM »
...................that however bad we claim Jeremy's crime to have been, allegedly, Julie's subsidiary crimes were infinitely worse. Many think -despite that she was nowhere near the soc- she should be where Jeremy now is.

It is claimed that she was an adventress and had Jeremy under her thumb. It's been suggested that it was she who planned their Bonnie and Clyde activities. It's hard to think of anyone whose brain works in such a way putting themselves through the hard graft of years of education requiring that they do menial part time work to fund.

She was more tghan just Jeremy's girlfriend, though. She was his fiancee. He had asked her to marry him, the register office all but booked. I suspect it may have been called off because of parental approval of him "making an honest woman of her". Might that suggest that the engagement had merely been an attempt to get up parental noses? Nonetheless, they were still a couple. As the relationship was ongoing, perhaps the wedding had been put on hold?

Despite constant and vociferous reminders about the possibility of a signed, pre-trial contract with the NOTW -although quite how it could have damaged Jeremy's chances is beyond me. She'd made her statement, which would form the basis of her testimony. She, as far as we know, didn't do any unexpected turnarounds from the witness box- and the equally vociferous claims that she lied -if she did, repeating what Jeremy had told her, the lies were his- Julie has never changed her story. No one forced her to come back from Canada, all those years after the event, to give evidence. She can hardly be blamed if it was decided it wasn't necessary to call her.

What, exactly, might she have been guilty of? I suspect she didn't tell the whole truth. I suspect she knew way more of his plans than she admitted to. Possibly the sort of things which she believed may have shown her as complicit? She may even have gone through it with her mother. Might her mother have warned her that if she wasn't careful, she was in danger of being dragged down with Jeremy, who'd already told her that would happen. I'll bet she went for damage limitation.

We really don't need to keep being told that if only the jury had known dah, dah, dah, they'd have voted differently. Would they? A signed, pre-trial contract against the murder of an entire family including two little boys? No contract was signed when that happened, nor did it change who the murderer was.

Offline David1819

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2020, 09:29:AM »
Lest we forget.

Jane spent 28 years believing Jeremy was innocent. Then changed her mind in chorus with Caroline and Paul Harrison and refuses to discus why.   ::)

Offline lookout

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2020, 10:04:AM »
It would have appeared that everyone had Jeremy under their thumb.  The more I read about this case the more sickened and disgusted I am. It just beggars belief.

Those who are adamant that Jeremy is a psychopath and committed the murders should stop and think that psychopathy is a mental illness/ disturbance too and his state of mind and general mental health needs as much understanding as the illness which troubled his sister so why is one mental illness any different from another ? They're all the same troubled souls. This is the way I see it.


Offline Jane

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2020, 10:34:AM »
It would have appeared that everyone had Jeremy under their thumb.  The more I read about this case the more sickened and disgusted I am. It just beggars belief.

Those who are adamant that Jeremy is a psychopath and committed the murders should stop and think that psychopathy is a mental illness/ disturbance too and his state of mind and general mental health needs as much understanding as the illness which troubled his sister so why is one mental illness any different from another ? They're all the same troubled souls. This is the way I see it.

Psychopathy is a mental illness? Really? How long has that been so? Try telling that to to the risk takers in this world who acheive wonderful things for humanity. Those who made possible heart transplants. Those who made it possible for the childless to conceive. Those who takes financial risks which give employment to thousands. Risk taking at such levels denotes the possibility that they're all on the psychopathic spectrum.

 Jeremy, if his state of mind is causing him problems, will have greater and faster access to those who will support him through it, than those on the outside for whom there's more than a year's wait.

Offline Roch

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2020, 10:45:AM »
Just nearly choked on my cup of tea.

Offline lookout

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2020, 11:13:AM »
Psychopathy is a mental illness? Really? How long has that been so? Try telling that to to the risk takers in this world who acheive wonderful things for humanity. Those who made possible heart transplants. Those who made it possible for the childless to conceive. Those who takes financial risks which give employment to thousands. Risk taking at such levels denotes the possibility that they're all on the psychopathic spectrum.

 Jeremy, if his state of mind is causing him problems, will have greater and faster access to those who will support him through it, than those on the outside for whom there's more than a year's wait.





Risk-takers have no fear which in a child who's growing up is scrutinised by a psychologist and put on the list of suspected ADHD or Autism. We all have in-built fears of sorts but those who don't definitely have a problem with the amygdala ( which has been mentioned before ) set on either side of the brain, it dictates our perceptions, or not, of fear. In sociopaths this area is disordered the same as in psychopaths. Psychoanalysts are studying these effects in such fearless people as lack of emotion/empathy plays a huge part in the impaired amygdala.

Impaired meaning an accident/blow on the head or one of birth/ genetic. Wasn't Jeremy damaged on his head ?

Do you have proof that these clever people are/were psychopaths ? Proof that Jeremy was ?

As Jeremy himself once said---" it's for you to find out ", I refer to the psychiatric tests which were done over a period of time to which all came back as NAD, so no psychopathy there then. Not to my knowledge has Jeremy had treatment of any sort for any mental impairment.
These things can't be fully detected without an MRI scan anyway, but in 35 years there hasn't been one report in behaviour change of any kind.

Offline Jane

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2020, 12:47:PM »




Risk-takers have no fear which in a child who's growing up is scrutinised by a psychologist and put on the list of suspected ADHD or Autism. We all have in-built fears of sorts but those who don't definitely have a problem with the amygdala ( which has been mentioned before ) set on either side of the brain, it dictates our perceptions, or not, of fear. In sociopaths this area is disordered the same as in psychopaths. Psychoanalysts are studying these effects in such fearless people as lack of emotion/empathy plays a huge part in the impaired amygdala.

Impaired meaning an accident/blow on the head or one of birth/ genetic. Wasn't Jeremy damaged on his head ?

Do you have proof that these clever people are/were psychopaths ? Proof that Jeremy was ?

As Jeremy himself once said---" it's for you to find out ", I refer to the psychiatric tests which were done over a period of time to which all came back as NAD, so no psychopathy there then. Not to my knowledge has Jeremy had treatment of any sort for any mental impairment.
These things can't be fully detected without an MRI scan anyway, but in 35 years there hasn't been one report in behaviour change of any kind.


Psychopathy isn't mental impairment. It's a personality disorder. I see no reason for Jeremy to be singled out as a special case deserving of anything more than the routine test administered to all prisoners.

guest29835

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2020, 12:56:PM »
...................that however bad we claim Jeremy's crime to have been, allegedly, Julie's subsidiary crimes were infinitely worse. Many think -despite that she was nowhere near the soc- she should be where Jeremy now is.

It is claimed that she was an adventress and had Jeremy under her thumb. It's been suggested that it was she who planned their Bonnie and Clyde activities. It's hard to think of anyone whose brain works in such a way putting themselves through the hard graft of years of education requiring that they do menial part time work to fund.

She was more tghan just Jeremy's girlfriend, though. She was his fiancee. He had asked her to marry him, the register office all but booked. I suspect it may have been called off because of parental approval of him "making an honest woman of her". Might that suggest that the engagement had merely been an attempt to get up parental noses? Nonetheless, they were still a couple. As the relationship was ongoing, perhaps the wedding had been put on hold?

I didn't know that about them.  Obviously I knew it was a serious relationship, that's common ground, but I didn't realise they had progressed to a consideration of the formalities of marriage. 

We're told Jeremy was a psychopath, yet he was able to conduct a serious intimate relationship with a woman who, if you don't mind me making the observation, was a bit on the plain side in the looks department.  That said, I think there was an underlying psychological drive on Jeremy's part in the relationship: Julie was a facsimile of June and represented his attempt to appease his mother, who I am sure wanted him to settle down with a 'nice girl' - as all mothers do.

Haven't we all had that conversation with our mothers (and fathers too)?  "When are you going to find a nice girl, Chevalier, and settle down?"  And haven't we all nagged our own children in the same way, without even realising we're doing it?  Some of us can ignore or distance ourselves from the well-intended parental nagging, but Jeremy couldn't because of the situation he was in: he was tied to his parents economically. 

We may ask: was Julie a long-term calculation on Jeremy's part, or a genuine love?  Maybe the truth is that Jeremy did not understand fully his own motivations.  I think it must have been genuine in Jeremy's mind, but with June dead, the underlying psychological picture shifted radically and Jeremy suddenly knew the relationship was over.  Thus, the family funeral also marked the end of Jeremy and Julie as a serious relationship.  The fooling around in the funeral car perhaps signified this.  Instead of being a marriage prospect, Julie became 'just another girl' again.

Despite constant and vociferous reminders about the possibility of a signed, pre-trial contract with the NOTW -although quite how it could have damaged Jeremy's chances is beyond me. She'd made her statement, which would form the basis of her testimony. She, as far as we know, didn't do any unexpected turnarounds from the witness box- and the equally vociferous claims that she lied -if she did, repeating what Jeremy had told her, the lies were his- Julie has never changed her story. No one forced her to come back from Canada, all those years after the event, to give evidence. She can hardly be blamed if it was decided it wasn't necessary to call her.

What, exactly, might she have been guilty of? I suspect she didn't tell the whole truth. I suspect she knew way more of his plans than she admitted to. Possibly the sort of things which she believed may have shown her as complicit? She may even have gone through it with her mother. Might her mother have warned her that if she wasn't careful, she was in danger of being dragged down with Jeremy, who'd already told her that would happen. I'll bet she went for damage limitation.

We really don't need to keep being told that if only the jury had known dah, dah, dah, they'd have voted differently. Would they? A signed, pre-trial contract against the murder of an entire family including two little boys? No contract was signed when that happened, nor did it change who the murderer was.

Here I must disagree with you Jane.

Justice must be paramount and it must be applied to all cases.  The principles of a fair trial are fundamental because that's how we find out what happened.  If a trial has not been fair, then any conviction that resulted from it must be considered unsafe.  We can't pick and choose who the rules apply to and when, just because we're concerned or repulsed by what an individual is accused of.

If Jeremy made a deal with a newspaper, that doesn't matter to justice.  This was a contested trial and Jeremy can be expected to deny the allegations anyway.  Having a deal in place, which will pay out if indeed he is acquitted, makes no difference to his evidence.  Naturally he wants to be acquitted anyway. 

On the other hand, if Julie made a deal with a newspaper, that is a serious problem because it means her evidence is coloured by the knowledge she will be paid if a case she is influential in goes a certain way.  At the very least, the jury should have been told about this factor.  As it is, Julie misled the trial.  Why did she do this if, as you claim, it doesn't matter?

I should also add that, in English law, a contract can be verbal or oral as well as written, and informal understandings can be contractual in nature; and, even if it isn't contractual, such an arrangement may still be prejudicial to a criminal trial.  If Julie had a verbal understanding with a newspaper, then arguably there was a contract or a 'quasi-contractual' arrangement, but whatever the strict position in law, the bottom line is that she has not told the truth and it is material to her evidence. 

Let us say I am sitting as a juror in a criminal trial, and there is a key prosecution witness whose evidence is entirely uncorroborated - in other words, I am being asked to accept the witness' say-so that such-and-such thing happened, in conflict with the denials of the accused.  Let us say I then discover that this same witness is going to receive a substantial sum of money if a conviction is secured.  I am sorry, but I would disregard the evidence from that witness.  It's not safe evidence.  Allowing it pollutes the trial and renders the trial unfair and any resulting conviction would be unsafe.

Offline lookout

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2020, 01:13:PM »

Psychopathy isn't mental impairment. It's a personality disorder. I see no reason for Jeremy to be singled out as a special case deserving of anything more than the routine test administered to all prisoners.





Not even for " having slayed all his family ?" One prisoner is kept in a cage-like environment because he's so dangerous.

Offline Jane

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2020, 01:41:PM »
I didn't know that about them.  Obviously I knew it was a serious relationship, that's common ground, but I didn't realise they had progressed to a consideration of the formalities of marriage. 

We're told Jeremy was a psychopath, yet he was able to conduct a serious intimate relationship with a woman who, if you don't mind me making the observation, was a bit on the plain side in the looks department.  That said, I think there was an underlying psychological drive on Jeremy's part in the relationship: Julie was a facsimile of June and represented his attempt to appease his mother, who I am sure wanted him to settle down with a 'nice girl' - as all mothers do.

Haven't we all had that conversation with our mothers (and fathers too)?  "When are you going to find a nice girl, Chevalier, and settle down?"  And haven't we all nagged our own children in the same way, without even realising we're doing it?  Some of us can ignore or distance ourselves from the well-intended parental nagging, but Jeremy couldn't because of the situation he was in: he was tied to his parents economically. 

We may ask: was Julie a long-term calculation on Jeremy's part, or a genuine love?  Maybe the truth is that Jeremy did not understand fully his own motivations.  I think it must have been genuine in Jeremy's mind, but with June dead, the underlying psychological picture shifted radically and Jeremy suddenly knew the relationship was over.  Thus, the family funeral also marked the end of Jeremy and Julie as a serious relationship.  The fooling around in the funeral car perhaps signified this.  Instead of being a marriage prospect, Julie became 'just another girl' again.

Here I must disagree with you Jane.

Justice must be paramount and it must be applied to all cases.  The principles of a fair trial are fundamental because that's how we find out what happened.  If a trial has not been fair, then any conviction that resulted from it must be considered unsafe.  We can't pick and choose who the rules apply to and when, just because we're concerned or repulsed by what an individual is accused of.

If Jeremy made a deal with a newspaper, that doesn't matter to justice.  This was a contested trial and Jeremy can be expected to deny the allegations anyway.  Having a deal in place, which will pay out if indeed he is acquitted, makes no difference to his evidence.  Naturally he wants to be acquitted anyway. 

On the other hand, if Julie made a deal with a newspaper, that is a serious problem because it means her evidence is coloured by the knowledge she will be paid if a case she is influential in goes a certain way.  At the very least, the jury should have been told about this factor.  As it is, Julie misled the trial.  Why did she do this if, as you claim, it doesn't matter?

I should also add that, in English law, a contract can be verbal or oral as well as written, and informal understandings can be contractual in nature; and, even if it isn't contractual, such an arrangement may still be prejudicial to a criminal trial.  If Julie had a verbal understanding with a newspaper, then arguably there was a contract or a 'quasi-contractual' arrangement, but whatever the strict position in law, the bottom line is that she has not told the truth and it is material to her evidence. 

Let us say I am sitting as a juror in a criminal trial, and there is a key prosecution witness whose evidence is entirely uncorroborated - in other words, I am being asked to accept the witness' say-so that such-and-such thing happened, in conflict with the denials of the accused.  Let us say I then discover that this same witness is going to receive a substantial sum of money if a conviction is secured.  I am sorry, but I would disregard the evidence from that witness.  It's not safe evidence.  Allowing it pollutes the trial and renders the trial unfair and any resulting conviction would be unsafe.

Again, I am sorry, but regardless of Jeremy's culpability, anybody who thinks his convictions are unsafe needs to be tell me what hallucinogenic they're smoking, so I can buy some of it and get high as well.  The judiciary may say it's a safe conviction, but as they say in the financial world, past performance is not necessarily an indicator of future performance.  I'm not sure we can rely on the judgement of professionals who, it seems to me, have a vested interest in upholding the credibility of the system on which they depend for their livings and kudos.


QC, I suspect it may have been more serious for Julie than for Jeremy -there are tales, possibly apocryphal- of him, pardon the expression, screwing around, whilst they were together. The observation that she "was a bit plain in the looks department" is almost complimentary compared with my own claims about her, during the time I was staunchly pro Jeremy, showing the beginnings of a moustache and having appalling dress sense!!!

Did Jeremy feel a "till death do us part" love for Julie? Well, it certainly did that, didn't it? Allegedly, his real love had been Suzette Ford. Older than he, married with two children, she'd had dinner with him and his parents on the occasion of his 21st birthday. She became pregnant to him twice but miscarried and subsequently returned to her husband. Perhaps Julie was a rebound romance? It seems his parents didn't approve of either relationship. It seems he may have seen an entirely different future mapped out once he was free of his parents and the farm. Perhaps he no longer saw the need for a permanent relationship. Wealth opens many doors.

Now, I hear what you say about pre trial signed contracts. The law states. End of. No further discussion. BUT, I must ask, because I need it to be clarified, if Julie had admitted that this was the case, ie, she stood to make money according to the outcome of the trial, what possible difference would it have made to the questions she was going to be asked based on information she'd given long before the deal was thought about? Is it not the case that a witness can only respond to questions asked? I presume no one asked the question.

It maybe as you say. That having such knowledge would/might have swayed jurors to another direction. It MAY be that there should be a retrial, but I remain conscious that an unsafe conviction is a far remove from an innocent verdict.

Offline David1819

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2020, 01:43:PM »
Just nearly choked on my cup of tea.

Considering the weather. Ice Tea?  :)

Offline David1819

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2020, 01:47:PM »




Risk-takers have no fear which in a child who's growing up is scrutinised by a psychologist and put on the list of suspected ADHD or Autism. We all have in-built fears of sorts but those who don't definitely have a problem with the amygdala ( which has been mentioned before ) set on either side of the brain, it dictates our perceptions, or not, of fear. In sociopaths this area is disordered the same as in psychopaths. Psychoanalysts are studying these effects in such fearless people as lack of emotion/empathy plays a huge part in the impaired amygdala.

Impaired meaning an accident/blow on the head or one of birth/ genetic. Wasn't Jeremy damaged on his head ?

Do you have proof that these clever people are/were psychopaths ? Proof that Jeremy was ?

As Jeremy himself once said---" it's for you to find out ", I refer to the psychiatric tests which were done over a period of time to which all came back as NAD, so no psychopathy there then. Not to my knowledge has Jeremy had treatment of any sort for any mental impairment.
These things can't be fully detected without an MRI scan anyway, but in 35 years there hasn't been one report in behaviour change of any kind.

I have ADHD. What are you implying?

Offline JackieD

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2020, 02:00:PM »

QC, I suspect it may have been more serious for Julie than for Jeremy -there are tales, possibly apocryphal- of him, pardon the expression, screwing around, whilst they were together. The observation that she "was a bit plain in the looks department" is almost complimentary compared with my own claims about her, during the time I was staunchly pro Jeremy, showing the beginnings of a moustache and having appalling dress sense!!!

Did Jeremy feel a "till death do us part" love for Julie? Well, it certainly did that, didn't it? Allegedly, his real love had been Suzette Ford. Older than he, married with two children, she'd had dinner with him and his parents on the occasion of his 21st birthday. She became pregnant to him twice but miscarried and subsequently returned to her husband. Perhaps Julie was a rebound romance? It seems his parents didn't approve of either relationship. It seems he may have seen an entirely different future mapped out once he was free of his parents and the farm. Perhaps he no longer saw the need for a permanent relationship. Wealth opens many doors.

Now, I hear what you say about pre trial signed contracts. The law states. End of. No further discussion. BUT, I must ask, because I need it to be clarified, if Julie had admitted that this was the case, ie, she stood to make money according to the outcome of the trial, what possible difference would it have made to the questions she was going to be asked based on information she'd given long before the deal was thought about? Is it not the case that a witness can only respond to questions asked? I presume no one asked the question.

It maybe as you say. That having such knowledge would/might have swayed jurors to another direction. It MAY be that there should be a retrial, but I remain conscious that an unsafe conviction is a far remove from an innocent verdict.

they depend for their livings and kudos.


QC, I suspect it may have been more serious for Julie than for Jeremy -there are tales, possibly apocryphal- of him, pardon the expression, screwing around, whilst they were together



Is that the words you used for Colin ‘screwing around’ when he was fully aware of Sheila’s health and suicidal thoughts
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline lookout

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2020, 02:03:PM »
I have ADHD. What are you implying?





Nothing David, so stop reading into it please. I wasn't referring to you or anyone else. I'm more interested in the debility itself with nothing personal implied.

Offline Jane

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Re: Lest We Forget...................
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2020, 02:07:PM »




Nothing David, so stop reading into it please. I wasn't referring to you or anyone else. I'm more interested in the debility itself with nothing personal implied.


I have no recall of teachers from either school saying anything of any impairments to learning.