Blood on Sheila´s Arm

[chochokeira]

OK, I have a question to those who think that the police shot Sheila. Do you think that she had shot herself once and recaived the second shot from a police officer. Or do you think that she was shot twice by police?

First shot Sheila, second shot police. Hence the cover up.

I think that it is too much of a coincidence that Sheila shoots herself in the neck - and then the police happen to shoot her right beside the wound she inflicted on herself.

That's a very good point, Abs. I don't, however, rule it out as a possibility. Sometimes the astonishing happens and this case seems to be crammed with astonishing events.

[andrea]

Well, if the cops did shoot Sheila then jb hasn't a hope in he'll of ever being released. I can't see Essex police admitting that, they will continue to with hold info and make any appeal or application for appeal as difficult as possible. Imagine the outrage! It would bring the whole judiciary into doubt, there would be an absolute uproar, so jb will stay inside I'm afraid, it will never be admitted to.

That's if the police did shoot her, I still can't see it myself.

[tyler]

It has been said that all that was heard on the open telephone line was a dog barking.But how do we actually know that? If this is indeed true,then why have EP refused to release the recordings?
I realise that this is really far fetched,but is it possible that whilst removing gun from Sheila in order to make safe,it accidently went off,causing the second shot? I find it interesting that the firearms team had a de-briefing after the event.They usually go back to log their weapons and ammo back in and usually only have a de-briefing when they have actually had to fire their weapons.Its also very telling that none of them gave evidence in court and none of them have ever given any media interviews.

[tyler]

If June and Sheila were both initially found on the bed,I cant understand what the purpose was of them  both being moved to the floor.Unless it was part of the reinactment?

[Jerry]

It has been said that all that was heard on the open telephone line was a dog barking.But how do we actually know that? If this is indeed true,then why have EP refused to release the recordings?

Because it is recorded in the police logs.

[Jerry]

If June and Sheila were both initially found on the bed,I cant understand what the purpose was of them  both being moved to the floor.Unless it was part of the reinactment?

You put someone on the floor in order to give them cardiac massage being the rhythmic compression of the chest and heart in an effort to restore and maintain circulation after a trauma.

[smiffy]

My husband has had a severe nosebleed for some days, and I learned something from that in connection to the blood pattern on Sheila's right arm.
My husband got one of those sudden bouts of blood running from his nose when I was sitting facing him. The first thing he did was to take his hand to his nose and lean forward, and what I saw, startled me.
A large drop of blood ran down his arm, and it looked EXACTLY like the stripes of blood down Sheila's arm (as shown in picture), except there was only one. It dried very quickly in that pattern with the heavier pooling at the bottom; the blood was arrested there, in very much the same location as what is seen on Sheila´s arm, i.e. halfway around the arm, same angle of bloodstripe. It was amazing to see how fast it dried - five minutes tops. AND there was no blood on his shirt apart from a few small stains at the bottom of his shirt, NONE at the top (he was sitting on a sofa leaning forward).
I have always wondered how Sheila got those distinctive stripes of blood on her arm - now I've seen how. She must have put her hand to her (first) wound, then  leaned forward in an upright position, and blood wouldn't necessarily  make its way to the front of her nightgown.
I wish I had taken a picture of the stripe of blood on my husband's arm - but he was annoyed that I just sat there gawking at the blood as it was! (Can't blame him!  )

Hmm so your proposing...the blood dripped from her first neck wound, with Sheila upright, onto her arm...
so far so good...
but if she holds her arm long enough in this position...to get the drips to fall onto it... then her forearm is fairly vertical....the blood flows from the frips on her arm should then basically head towards her elbow...

I do not see the correct flow pattern for this explanation in the pictures.. So I am inclined to reject this explanation....
If her arm was in a position under her neck for a few seconds...long enough to get enough drips of blood on her arm she would then need to lower her arm to a more horizontal position fairly quickly to reproduce the blood stains displayed.
This does not seem to me to be a satisfactory explanation.

[smiffy]

Its clear from a number of pictures that most the blood loss from Sheila pooled in the right underarm area....
This area of pooled blood seemed to have dripped onto the carpet to give the distinct pattern found in the area by the right shoulder when her body was being carried and moved into position.

It's clear Sheila was moved... and in my view when she was being carried blood from the pooling in the right underarm area would drip...now if her right arm was dangling down when being moved it would drip onto her arm in several places...and run from there  when her arm was placed across her when on the floor or similar.
This seems feasible and makes sense...though not ruling out other possibilities...I favour something like I have described.

I cannot agree with that. IMO, the blood you see on the photo would have formed this pattern by Sheila holding her hand to her wound - and I think she must have been sitting or standing still for some minutes. And it must be blood from the first wound.
In your scenario I think there would have been some splatter on the arm from where the drops fell. I don't see that.

Lets get a bit more scientific and think harder here...

You dont see blood splatter on the arm... 
This may be because there was none...or the conditions were not right to produce observable splatter, or the picture quality is too poor to show minute splatter.

ok  whats important for blood splatter

1/ velocity and mass of blood  when striking a surface.
in the scenario I propose the blood drops will not be of large mass ... and the velocity if fairly  low...the drops fall approx 10 to 12 inches (250cm to 300cm)...ie they are not travelling too fast...
think of physics and accelearation due to gravity...It is likely the drops were not falling fast enough to produce much or any observable splatter.

2/ instead of falling onto a hard surface the drops are falling onto the victims skin which is flexible and elastic rather than hard...this will absorb some of the drops impact...a small factor but critical for bloodsplatter.

3/ angle of the surface being struck... this is not going to be 90 degrees to the skin surface ... if there is splatter it will propel forward a little  and then be covered by flow from where the drop landed. the lesser angle of impact means splatter will be minimal

4/ the drops were not falling onto an established pool  of blood .

5/ the source of blood for the drips I envisage has pooled in the armpit area of the nightdress. This is blood that has been out of the body for a few minutes and will be a bit more viscous than fresh blood as it reacts with air making the drops less likely to splatter on impact.

SUMMING UP...
there is no reason to expect observable blood splatter for the scenario I proposed  so the absence of observable blood splatter is no reason to reject that scenario.

[tyler]

If June and Sheila were both initially found on the bed,I cant understand what the purpose was of them  both being moved to the floor.Unless it was part of the reinactment?

You put someone on the floor in order to give them cardiac massage being the rhythmic compression of the chest and heart in an effort to restore and maintain circulation after a trauma.

What ? Even somebody with livor motis,or even rigor mortis?

[chochokeira]

I think both June and Sheila were found on the bed at some point, and that both bodies were moved onto different parts of the bedroom floor, June was moved in the vicinity of the bedroom door and Sheila was placed on the floor on the opposite side of the bed. A big clue to what did take place can be found amongst the notes of PS Adams interview by COLP where at the end of the notes, he makes mention of the fact that after discussing the position of Sheila's body in the bedroom with two of his colleagues, they were of the opinion that June and Sheila must have been sat in bed reading the bible before the shootings started...

Now why would PS Adams say that, if there was not any truth in it?

Lots of good points in this thread, Mike. +1

[chochokeira]

I just cannot see why and how one of the police officers shot Sheila. Please explain, because it makes no sense at all to me!

These days it is called 'death by cops'.  One notable recent incident was that of Raoul Moat.  It is a stand-off situation whereby the police shoot an armed person.

Suicide by cops. In Sheila's case

   Or is it called suicide by cops?  Something like that.  There was also the case of that barrister in London who was hanging out of his window, while armed.  He was taken out by the police.

Suicide by cops. Though might death by cops be more appropriate to this case?

[Jerry]

   Or is it called suicide by cops?  Something like that.  There was also the case of that barrister in London who was hanging out of his window, while armed.  He was taken out by the police.

In this particular case, he presented as a danger to the public and to police.  What would you rather them do, seal off the entire area for weeks?

"After firing his shotgun at neighbours from the window of his £2.2million flat, Mr Saunders repeatedly shot at police during a five-hour siege.

"A senior police source said: "He shot at police officers at 5pm, 9pm and again at 9.30pm.

"We tried everything possible to contain and negotiate with him but this was a real threat with real bullets.

"He was shooting at police officers and members of the public. We never wanted to shoot him."




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-565474/Siege-Barrister-shot-dead-police-taking-anti-depressants.html#ixzz1QTfbUWim

[chochokeira]

My husband has had a severe nosebleed for some days, and I learned something from that in connection to the blood pattern on Sheila's right arm.
My husband got one of those sudden bouts of blood running from his nose when I was sitting facing him. The first thing he did was to take his hand to his nose and lean forward, and what I saw, startled me.
A large drop of blood ran down his arm, and it looked EXACTLY like the stripes of blood down Sheila's arm (as shown in picture), except there was only one. It dried very quickly in that pattern with the heavier pooling at the bottom; the blood was arrested there, in very much the same location as what is seen on Sheila´s arm, i.e. halfway around the arm, same angle of bloodstripe. It was amazing to see how fast it dried - five minutes tops. AND there was no blood on his shirt apart from a few small stains at the bottom of his shirt, NONE at the top (he was sitting on a sofa leaning forward).
I have always wondered how Sheila got those distinctive stripes of blood on her arm - now I've seen how. She must have put her hand to her (first) wound, then  leaned forward in an upright position, and blood wouldn't necessarily  make its way to the front of her nightgown.
I wish I had taken a picture of the stripe of blood on my husband's arm - but he was annoyed that I just sat there gawking at the blood as it was! (Can't blame him!  )

Hmm so your proposing...the blood dripped from her first neck wound, with Sheila upright, onto her arm...
so far so good...
but if she holds her arm long enough in this position...to get the drips to fall onto it... then her forearm is fairly vertical....the blood flows from the frips on her arm should then basically head towards her elbow...

I do not see the correct flow pattern for this explanation in the pictures.. So I am inclined to reject this explanation....
If her arm was in a position under her neck for a few seconds...long enough to get enough drips of blood on her arm she would then need to lower her arm to a more horizontal position fairly quickly to reproduce the blood stains displayed.
This does not seem to me to be a satisfactory explanation.

I'm impressed with some of your arguments, smiffy, however, I'm unsure about the vertical elevation of the arm. Place your hand on your neck where Sheila's wound was and it slants with your elbow pointing out and downwards,. The slant of the arm is more vertically elevated than horizontal.

However, if you then apply heavy pressure - to stem bleeding and counter pain - the contraction of your muscles shortens the length of the muscles and raises you arm, making the slant even more horizontal.

Try to sustain this pressure for a few moments and you might find yourself applying harder pressure to relieve muscle tetany in the arm: this increased pressure further contracts arm muscles and further raises the arm.

Your arm will soon begin to ache as muscle tetany sets in yet you can relieve this by leaning forward to rest your arm on something nearby, say a bedside table? That could give your arm a wholly horizontal elevation.

[Jerry]

If you were shot in the neck Keira, what is the first thing you would do?

[chochokeira]

If you were shot in the neck Keira, what is the first thing you would do?

Perhaps lie down and bleed on the bed or floor. However, my response might depend on a number of factors, including the extent of my injury and how determined a suicide I was. For example:

"In February 1995, a man committed suicide on parkland in Canberra, Australia. He took a pump action shotgun and shot himself in the chest. The load passed through the chest without hitting a rib, and went out the other side. He then walked fifteen meters, reloaded, leaned the shotgun against his throat, and shot his throat and part of his jaw. He then reloaded, walked 136 meters to a hill slope, lay down on the slope, held the gun against his chest with his hands and operated the trigger with his toes. This shot entered the thoracic cavity and demolished the heart, killing him."