Blood on Sheila´s Arm

[chochokeira]

Link to the above report:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide

[Jerry]

If you were shot in the neck Keira, what is the first thing you would do?

Perhaps lie down and bleed on the bed or floor. However, my response might depend on a number of factors, including the extent of my injury and how determined a suicide I was. For example:

"In February 1995, a man committed suicide on parkland in Canberra, Australia. He took a pump action shotgun and shot himself in the chest. The load passed through the chest without hitting a rib, and went out the other side. He then walked fifteen meters, reloaded, leaned the shotgun against his throat, and shot his throat and part of his jaw. He then reloaded, walked 136 meters to a hill slope, lay down on the slope, held the gun against his chest with his hands and operated the trigger with his toes. This shot entered the thoracic cavity and demolished the heart, killing him."

How about put your hand(s) on your wound?

Resulting in blood covering your palms(s).  Notice how Sheila did not have such a blood covering.

Nor was there any on any of the mechanisms of any of the rifles.

[chochokeira]

If you were shot in the neck Keira, what is the first thing you would do?

Perhaps lie down and bleed on the bed or floor. However, my response might depend on a number of factors, including the extent of my injury and how determined a suicide I was. For example:

"In February 1995, a man committed suicide on parkland in Canberra, Australia. He took a pump action shotgun and shot himself in the chest. The load passed through the chest without hitting a rib, and went out the other side. He then walked fifteen meters, reloaded, leaned the shotgun against his throat, and shot his throat and part of his jaw. He then reloaded, walked 136 meters to a hill slope, lay down on the slope, held the gun against his chest with his hands and operated the trigger with his toes. This shot entered the thoracic cavity and demolished the heart, killing him."

How about put your hand(s) on your wound?

Personally, I think I'd fall down first, then put my hands on my wound when - and if - I recovered my composure.

[smiffy]

If you were shot in the neck Keira, what is the first thing you would do?

Perhaps lie down and bleed on the bed or floor. However, my response might depend on a number of factors, including the extent of my injury and how determined a suicide I was. For example:

"In February 1995, a man committed suicide on parkland in Canberra, Australia. He took a pump action shotgun and shot himself in the chest. The load passed through the chest without hitting a rib, and went out the other side. He then walked fifteen meters, reloaded, leaned the shotgun against his throat, and shot his throat and part of his jaw. He then reloaded, walked 136 meters to a hill slope, lay down on the slope, held the gun against his chest with his hands and operated the trigger with his toes. This shot entered the thoracic cavity and demolished the heart, killing him."

How about put your hand(s) on your wound?

Resulting in blood covering your palms(s).  Notice how Sheila did not have such a blood covering.

Nor was there any on any of the mechanisms of any of the rifles.

Sheila bloody right palm print is clearly observed on her nightdress in photos. That in my view is unmistakable ...so blood was on her palm at some time.
The pathologist even recorded this.

The photographs available online do not show the inner aspects of Sheila's right arm to show the blood trails etc or her palm.

How did the blood get on her palm...there are several credible/plausible ways I can think of.

1/ Holding her hand to her first neck wound...

2/ Her hand placed at some time (maybe when her body was moved) on the bloodied nightdress in the vicinity of the main bloodstaining in the right arm area.

3/ When being carried, her right arm dangling down, blood drips onto her right arm from the pooling in the underarm area of her nightdress...this blood runs down the inner aspect of her arm to her palm.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It may be better to refer to other better photos of the bloodstains on Sheila's right arm.
It is very hard to establish clearly how the bloodstaining was formed without viewing the inner aspects of her arm to see how the blood trails ran .
Where do the trails start and stop etc.
From the pictures that are available there are 5 distinct trails that seem to start/stop on the outer aspect of Sheila's right arm...4 of which are in closely aligned and the other a little out.
Picture quality limits the interpretation ...so hard to clarify with certainty whether they were start points of the blood trails or end points. I am inclined to think they are end points......
-----
If they are indeed end points...then blood has flowed around the arm to the underside of her arm when the trail was formed and  this has to be the lowest point at which pooling formed from which drops of blood may have fallen.. however the pools have dried so the arm had to have this outer aspect of the arm facing downwards for a while...while the blood dried .
The trails thus made indicate basically her right forearm was near horizontal with palm upwards and her hand raised a little higher than her elbow. (her hand probably  resting on something).

[smiffy]

The bloody palm print on the nightdress is of interest.

I wont bother with considering JB or a hitman as the killer...for the fingernail gouges on Ralph's arm and other things satisfy me fully the Sheila killed the other 4.

With schizophrenic killers it is fairly normal for them to go through some ritualistic behaviour after the killings took place. Sheila seems to have followed this well known pattern in her changing clothes and cleaning herself.
Her nightdress being clean and without blood from others and no firearms residue or other mess it seems being worn by Sheila after she had washed post killing.

The bloodstains eventually deposited on Sheila's nighdress all seemed to have been sourced from herself with no reason to think they may be from any other person.

we then need to theorise...

The blood on her right palm can only have come from after the first wound was delivered.

If a suicide attempt and palm bloodstain made by herself ......
after getting blood on her palm she makes contact with her nighdress.....maybe she then passes out for a while.
There should be blood on her right palm...hmmm

There was an interval between the first and second shots.....OK
The blood on her right palm dries ....so when she picks up the rifle to shoot herself the second and fatal time  no blood is deposited on the rifle from her palm.
Sheila has a bloodstained right hand...(hmmm we dont see her palm in the photographs).

So unless some naughty policemen are lying...her hand should be bloodstained on the palm.....

ah...so maybe someone cleaned her hand ....
ah ...what about Sheila...she shoots herself the first time....gets blood on her palm.makes the palm print... some time after this but before shooting herself the second time...she decides bizarrely to wash her hands ?.... SORRY DONT BUY THIS ...JUST TOO SILLY FOR WORDS .

so if some police are not lying and her hands were clean...then could the ones who are seeing the clean hands be telling the truth because some naughty policeman has cleaned her hands before the other police saw her hands...
Now why would they be doing that?
Why tamper with the evidence?

or was her palm really bloodstained all along and lies are being told in order to frame JB and cover up a police screw up.

[Hartley]

I wont bother with considering JB or a hitman as the killer...for the fingernail gouges on Ralph's arm and other things satisfy me fully the Sheila killed the other 4.

It's interesting to note that an experienced pathologist did not attribute the wounds to Ralph's arm as being caused by fingernails.

[vidvic]

The bloody palm print on the nightdress is of interest.

I wont bother with considering JB or a hitman as the killer...for the fingernail gouges on Ralph's arm and other things satisfy me fully the Sheila killed the other 4.

With schizophrenic killers it is fairly normal for them to go through some ritualistic behaviour after the killings took place. Sheila seems to have followed this well known pattern in her changing clothes and cleaning herself.
Her nightdress being clean and without blood from others and no firearms residue or other mess it seems being worn by Sheila after she had washed post killing.

The bloodstains eventually deposited on Sheila's nighdress all seemed to have been sourced from herself with no reason to think they may be from any other person.

we then need to theorise...

The blood on her right palm can only have come from after the first wound was delivered.

If a suicide attempt and palm bloodstain made by herself ......
after getting blood on her palm she makes contact with her nighdress.....maybe she then passes out for a while.
There should be blood on her right palm...hmmm

There was an interval between the first and second shots.....OK
The blood on her right palm dries ....so when she picks up the rifle to shoot herself the second and fatal time  no blood is deposited on the rifle from her palm.
Sheila has a bloodstained right hand...(hmmm we dont see her palm in the photographs).

So unless some naughty policemen are lying...her hand should be bloodstained on the palm.....

ah...so maybe someone cleaned her hand ....
ah ...what about Sheila...she shoots herself the first time....gets blood on her palm.makes the palm print... some time after this but before shooting herself the second time...she decides bizarrely to wash her hands ?.... SORRY DONT BUY THIS ...JUST TOO SILLY FOR WORDS .

so if some police are not lying and her hands were clean...then could the ones who are seeing the clean hands be telling the truth because some naughty policeman has cleaned her hands before the other police saw her hands...
Now why would they be doing that?
Why tamper with the evidence?

or was her palm really bloodstained all along and lies are being told in order to frame JB and cover up a police screw up.

But at this point in time the Police believed that Sheila HAD done it. Why would they wash her hands to make it look like she didn't?

[smiffy]

The bloody palm print on the nightdress is of interest.

I wont bother with considering JB or a hitman as the killer...for the fingernail gouges on Ralph's arm and other things satisfy me fully the Sheila killed the other 4.

With schizophrenic killers it is fairly normal for them to go through some ritualistic behaviour after the killings took place. Sheila seems to have followed this well known pattern in her changing clothes and cleaning herself.
Her nightdress being clean and without blood from others and no firearms residue or other mess it seems being worn by Sheila after she had washed post killing.

The bloodstains eventually deposited on Sheila's nighdress all seemed to have been sourced from herself with no reason to think they may be from any other person.

we then need to theorise...

The blood on her right palm can only have come from after the first wound was delivered.

If a suicide attempt and palm bloodstain made by herself ......
after getting blood on her palm she makes contact with her nighdress.....maybe she then passes out for a while.
There should be blood on her right palm...hmmm

There was an interval between the first and second shots.....OK
The blood on her right palm dries ....so when she picks up the rifle to shoot herself the second and fatal time  no blood is deposited on the rifle from her palm.
Sheila has a bloodstained right hand...(hmmm we dont see her palm in the photographs).

So unless some naughty policemen are lying...her hand should be bloodstained on the palm.....

ah...so maybe someone cleaned her hand ....
ah ...what about Sheila...she shoots herself the first time....gets blood on her palm.makes the palm print... some time after this but before shooting herself the second time...she decides bizarrely to wash her hands ?.... SORRY DONT BUY THIS ...JUST TOO SILLY FOR WORDS .

so if some police are not lying and her hands were clean...then could the ones who are seeing the clean hands be telling the truth because some naughty policeman has cleaned her hands before the other police saw her hands...
Now why would they be doing that?
Why tamper with the evidence?

or was her palm really bloodstained all along and lies are being told in order to frame JB and cover up a police screw up.

But at this point in time the Police believed that Sheila HAD done it. Why would they wash her hands to make it look like she didn't?

to frame JB as the other relatives had info that would blow apart the suicide story the police had been concocting and had kept covered up..

poor framing though ...hence the relatives latched onto it and used it to their own advantage...


remember it is the police that claim her hands were clean...IT STICKS OUT IN EVIDENCE THAT THEY WANT PEOPLE TO FOCUS ON THIS POINT... wonder why?..

in the suicide case ...it may be that its reported her right palm was bloodstained...
that and other reasons may be why statements etc from that investigation have never been released as it would blow the whole murder case against JB apart.

The police clean her hands but it implies JB must have done it...for we should expect the bloodstains to be on the rifle...if Sheila shot herself... but not if someone else shot her.... but this fails to take into account that the bloodstains had time to dry between the first and second shot so accounting for no palm print on the rifle!...so the idea that some bright spark bent EP officer had...was not such a good one as first thought.

think about it...Sheila cant possibly have cleaned her own right hand after shooting herself...that makes no sense and if someone is trying to fake a suicide they will do their best to make it look right...

Going by the silly JB did it  story....erm he shoots her somewhere else....bloody hell why no blood on her feet or clothes from others ? etc but somehow he manhandles her from the first suicide location to a second location and waits and waits...for time between shots prove this...
and then he delievers the second shot... but just a minute...Sheila has blood on her right palm and there isnt any on the rifle...DOH....What to do   oh dear as well   best not notice the bloody palm print on Sheila's nightdress thats so damn obvious...
I know thinks JB...to get around the no bloody palm print on the rifle I will wash Sheila's right hand...that'll sort it and trick the police etc....as he cant see the palm print thats staring him in the face...

So JB washes Sheila's hand very very carefully before staging her hand on the rifle...just as the police did.....  happy now JB ignores the bloody palm print that was made by Sheila's hand as the police will not see that or think how it was made and that Sheila's hand had been bloody once but wasnt when found..hmmm
so a rather incredible tale eh....I think so...
why didnt he just leave it ...her hand as is if the bloodstaining on the hand was dry by this time..it would be on no consequence....and if still wet...then it would have made a palm print on the rifle anyway..

its a lot of trouble washing her hand and not leaving traces...and it takes time... CAN WE THINK OF A BETTER MORE CONVINCING RUSE...?
I can...  place Sheila's hand onto the wet bit of bloodsoaked nightdress and then place it onto the rifle to leave a corresponding palm print...  only takes seconds and accouts for the palm print on the nightdress.

hmm  GOOD IDEAS eh..
How about naughty policeman...he could place Sheila's hand on the blood and then onto the nightdress and then wash it.... and leave out the rifle  ..just to make it look "if needed" like someone else shot Sheila and screwed up as her palm print wasnt on the rifle.

[smiffy]

I wont bother with considering JB or a hitman as the killer...for the fingernail gouges on Ralph's arm and other things satisfy me fully the Sheila killed the other 4.

It's interesting to note that an experienced pathologist did not attribute the wounds to Ralph's arm as being caused by fingernails.

He clearly lied on this issue....most likely under pressure to do so by EP. To make it easier ..he was probably initially spun a less serious story to get his compliance and once duped into that...it was hard to back off.

They can have as much experience and as many qualifications as they like...it does not stop them making mistakes or telling lies. 

[Hartley]

I wont bother with considering JB or a hitman as the killer...for the fingernail gouges on Ralph's arm and other things satisfy me fully the Sheila killed the other 4.

It's interesting to note that an experienced pathologist did not attribute the wounds to Ralph's arm as being caused by fingernails.

He clearly lied on this issue....most likely under pressure to do so by EP. To make it easier ..he was probably initially spun a less serious story to get his compliance and once duped into that...it was hard to back off.

They can have as much experience and as many qualifications as they like...it does not stop them making mistakes or telling lies.

Hmmm I think you are deluded in this case, particularly given the fact that the post mortem was carried out prior to JB being in the frame.

[Hartley]

I wont bother with considering JB or a hitman as the killer...for the fingernail gouges on Ralph's arm and other things satisfy me fully the Sheila killed the other 4.

It's interesting to note that an experienced pathologist did not attribute the wounds to Ralph's arm as being caused by fingernails.

He clearly lied on this issue....most likely under pressure to do so by EP. To make it easier ..he was probably initially spun a less serious story to get his compliance and once duped into that...it was hard to back off.

They can have as much experience and as many qualifications as they like...it does not stop them making mistakes or telling lies.

Hmmm I think you are deluded in this case, particularly given the fact that the post mortem was carried out prior to JB being in the frame.

There you go...you get kicked into touch and all you can come up with is some stupid way out claim that I am deluded...
Look at the pictures of Ralphs arm...look at the pathologists report.
Simple he lied...YOU KNOW IT....and when faced with the truth ...you attack the person who tells the truth rather than deal with reality.
People who cannot accept reality are the deluded ones...and that very much looks like you HARTLEY.

ahem....the post mortem was carried out on the day well before JB was in the frame...but the notes were not written up and reported on until JB was in the frame... well the notes  used to wrongly convict him...
were other notes etc made by the pathologist for the suicide story originally being attempted by EP...and within the files kept secret by PII.....Very probably... and its likely they are rather different from the ones used in the procedings.

Yes okay Smiffy.

[Hartley]

like your repeated joining and leaving the forum Hartley....is that some mental health issue going on in your head that leads to your abnormal behaviour and thoughts?

Yep that's right.

[Hartley]

like your repeated joining and leaving the forum Hartley....is that some mental health issue going on in your head that leads to your abnormal behaviour and thoughts?

Yep that's right.

Good to see you can at least acknowledge the situation.

Now if only you could do the same. 

[Hartley]

Now your having  a silly moment again.
I have joined once and never left and am not deluded unlike yourself and your claims about me seem to arise from your delusions.

Oh well, glad that's sorted then.

[Alias]

I have to agree with Hartley about the wounds on Nevill´s arm. I don´t think that fingernails could have made them. It looks like marks from the barrel of a gun.