Discussion on motive

[maggie]

It's possible, but it's also possible that she put it on, took it off in the bedroom and someone else put it in the cupboard later.

True Kaldin, there are multiple possibilities to so much of this case.

[mike tesko]

Do you believe Sheila put the silencer on. Then put it away?

She didn't...

[mike tesko]

True Kaldin, there are multiple possibilities to so much of this case.

,
Although, honestly it could have been possible!

[mike tesko]

The actual truth is that there were two sound moderators (silencers) present inside WHF at the time of the shootings!

One belonging to Anthony Pargeters .22 (BRNO) bolt action rifle, and the other belonging to the .22 semi-automatic' Anshuzt rifle' purchased y Neville Bamber in November 1984

[Janet ((Formerly known as Takeshi))]

The actual truth is that there were two sound moderators (silencers) present inside WHF at the time of the shootings!

One belonging to Anthony Pargeters .22 (BRNO) bolt action rifle, and the other belonging to the .22 semi-automatic' Anshuzt rifle' purchased y Neville Bamber in November 1984

Was the AP sound moderator capable of fitting on to the Anshutz rifle?

[ngb1066]

Was the AP sound moderator capable of fitting on to the Anshutz rifle?

Yes.

[arthur]

How many empty cartridge cases were found in Neville & June's bedroom and do they equate to the number of entry wounds to Sheila and June.  Was any of the blood in that bedroom identified as Nevilles.

In other words has it ever been proved where Neville was shot, in his bedroom or downstairs.

[Kaldin]

How many empty cartridge cases were found in Neville & June's bedroom and do they equate to the number of entry wounds to Sheila and June.  Was any of the blood in that bedroom identified as Nevilles.

In other words has it ever been proved where Neville was shot, in his bedroom or downstairs.

Thirteen I think - either in the bedroom or just outside it. June was shot seven times and Sheila twice, so that leaves four cartridges, hence the theory that Nevill was shot four times upstairs.

As far as I know, Nevill's blood was not found upstairs, but I don't think all the blood was tested.

[arthur]

Thirteen I think - either in the bedroom or just outside it. June was shot seven times and Sheila twice, so that leaves four cartridges, hence the theory that Nevill was shot four times upstairs.

As far as I know, Nevill's blood was not found upstairs, but I don't think all the blood was tested.

So then is it possible that Sheila comes down, gets the weapon, goes upstairs intending to kill. Wakes her parents, threatening and abusing. Is it then possible that June tells Neville to ring Jeremy or the Police. He then goes down and makes the call to jeremy but after a few seconds on the phones hears the weapon being fired, goes up to find June has been shot and is then shot himself. Staggers downstairs where he is shot again after a struggle.

But does the cartridge evidence rule that out. Yes 13 cartridge shells were found in or just outside June & Nevills bedroom. The .22 Anschutz semi automatic hold a max of ten rounds I think so Sheila shoots June 7 times and Neville 4 times...does she reload after shooting June 6 times and Neville 4 times...has she got the extra shells for the reload on her person...or does she nip downstairs to reload..or was there only 9 shells in the .22 because Jeremy ejected one from the breech after going out to "shoot the rabbits".

So was it 5 into June and 4 into Neville and then the reload...and what was Neville doing during the reload..?

Was there more than one loaded magazine for this .22 weapon available to the shooter or did the magazine have to be reloaded one shell at a time.

Very difficult to work out the sequence of shots fired, taking into account the weapon had to be reloaded after 9 or was it 10 shots...and reloaded a second time as the bullet count was 25 in total I think.

Seems implausible that Sheila could reload if her father still had some mobility..

[Steve_uk]

So then is it possible that Sheila comes down, gets the weapon, goes upstairs intending to kill. Wakes her parents, threatening and abusing. Is it then possible that June tells Neville to ring Jeremy or the Police. He then goes down and makes the call to jeremy but after a few seconds on the phones hears the weapon being fired, goes up to find June has been shot and is then shot himself. Staggers downstairs where he is shot again after a struggle.

But does the cartridge evidence rule that out. Yes 13 cartridge shells were found in or just outside June & Nevills bedroom. The .22 Anschutz semi automatic hold a max of ten rounds I think so Sheila shoots June 7 times and Neville 4 times...does she reload after shooting June 6 times and Neville 4 times...has she got the extra shells for the reload on her person...or does she nip downstairs to reload..or was there only 9 shells in the .22 because Jeremy ejected one from the breech after going out to "shoot the rabbits".

So was it 5 into June and 4 into Neville and then the reload...and what was Neville doing during the reload..?

Was there more than one loaded magazine for this .22 weapon available to the shooter or did the magazine have to be reloaded one shell at a time.

Very difficult to work out the sequence of shots fired, taking into account the weapon had to be reloaded after 9 or was it 10 shots...and reloaded a second time as the bullet count was 25 in total I think.

Seems implausible that Sheila could reload if her father still had some mobility..

Well at least that's an attempt at a scenario, however implausible it may be.

[Kaldin]

So then is it possible that Sheila comes down, gets the weapon, goes upstairs intending to kill. Wakes her parents, threatening and abusing. Is it then possible that June tells Neville to ring Jeremy or the Police. He then goes down and makes the call to jeremy but after a few seconds on the phones hears the weapon being fired, goes up to find June has been shot and is then shot himself. Staggers downstairs where he is shot again after a struggle.

But does the cartridge evidence rule that out. Yes 13 cartridge shells were found in or just outside June & Nevills bedroom. The .22 Anschutz semi automatic hold a max of ten rounds I think so Sheila shoots June 7 times and Neville 4 times...does she reload after shooting June 6 times and Neville 4 times...has she got the extra shells for the reload on her person...or does she nip downstairs to reload..or was there only 9 shells in the .22 because Jeremy ejected one from the breech after going out to "shoot the rabbits".

So was it 5 into June and 4 into Neville and then the reload...and what was Neville doing during the reload..?

Was there more than one loaded magazine for this .22 weapon available to the shooter or did the magazine have to be reloaded one shell at a time.

Very difficult to work out the sequence of shots fired, taking into account the weapon had to be reloaded after 9 or was it 10 shots...and reloaded a second time as the bullet count was 25 in total I think.

Seems implausible that Sheila could reload if her father still had some mobility..

IMO, if Nevill did ring Jeremy, Sheila was not upstairs at the point - I don't think Nevill would have left June alone with Sheila wielding a rifle. She could, however, have been downstairs with the gun and then went upstairs and started shooting June whilst Nevill was on the phone - hence Nevill suddenly rushing off upstairs.

June was shot seven times in total, but not all at the same time. The killer came back later to shoot her again. She was shot several times initially, but she was able to get out of bed and walk around the bed. Nevill could have then come up the stairs and been shot four times either as he came up the stairs or when he got to the bedroom.

The magazine took ten bullets and there could be one in the breach - making eleven. However, I think there were maybe nine bullets in the magazine, which accounts for June being shot five times initially, and Nevill four times initially.

If Sheila did it, I think that she went downstairs because she ran out of bullets. Nevill went after her but he was very injured so couldn't do much. He was hit with the gun and then possibly collapsed in the chair. There was then time to reload the rifle and shoot him again with another four bullets.

[arthur]

IMO, if Nevill did ring Jeremy, Sheila was not upstairs at the point - I don't think Nevill would have left June alone with Sheila wielding a rifle. She could, however, have been downstairs with the gun and then went upstairs and started shooting June whilst Nevill was on the phone - hence Nevill suddenly rushing off upstairs.

June was shot seven times in total, but not all at the same time. The killer came back later to shoot her again. She was shot several times initially, but she was able to get out of bed and walk around the bed. Nevill could have then come up the stairs and been shot four times either as he came up the stairs or when he got to the bedroom.

The magazine took ten bullets and there could be one in the breach - making eleven. However, I think there were maybe nine bullets in the magazine, which accounts for June being shot five times initially, and Nevill four times initially.

If Sheila did it, I think that she went downstairs because she ran out of bullets. Nevill went after her but he was very injured so couldn't do much. He was hit with the gun and then possibly collapsed in the chair. There was then time to reload the rifle and shoot him again with another four bullets.

On the phone call..."Sheila has gone crazy with a gun..." Obviously Neville is out of bed and downstairs.But it looks like June was shot just as she was about to get out of bed...so Sheila goes into room and fires a number of times at June...does Neville then jump out of bed, in a state of shock and horror, and think..."I better go down and ring Jeremy and tell him what is happening"...did he push past Sheila on his way out of the room...to go down to the phone. Why didn't he attempt to overpower Sheila...or did she shoot him 4 times in the bedroom...and then he staggered downstairs all shot up and rang Jeremy...but correct me if I'm wrong weren't the shells for the .22 by the phone...so did Sheila say...' pass me those shells Dad..I have to shoot you another 4 times'

It certainly can't be said that Sheila is totally ruled out as the shooter.We can hypothesise over where Neville was shot and whether he had the strength to overcome Sheila or at what stage was he supposed to have made the phone call, but given the crime scene and the available evidence it is not a 'jeremy did it' open and shut case. Although it does look a bit stage managed. But if it was stage managed, in order to frame Sheila, surely Jeremy would've gone to the trouble of bloodying up Sheila and making it look like she has been in a struggle or some kind of violent altercation.

After all if it was Jeremy he obviously knew Neville was downstairs in the kitchen battered and bruised so it follows that he would have to give some consideration to Sheila's condition.It doesn't add up that he would leave her in almost pristine condition save for the two shots. Then again he might've been spooked by a noise outside or he might've realised he better get on with the phone call and get back to the cottage to start the second phase of the plan.And just didn't give enough thought to making Sheila look like the killer.

There is no easy explanation one way or the other.

[Steve_uk]

On the phone call..."Sheila has gone crazy with a gun..." Obviously Neville is out of bed and downstairs.But it looks like June was shot just as she was about to get out of bed...so Sheila goes into room and fires a number of times at June...does Neville then jump out of bed, in a state of shock and horror, and think..."I better go down and ring Jeremy and tell him what is happening"...did he push past Sheila on his way out of the room...to go down to the phone. Why didn't he attempt to overpower Sheila...or did she shoot him 4 times in the bedroom...and then he staggered downstairs all shot up and rang Jeremy...but correct me if I'm wrong weren't the shells for the .22 by the phone...so did Sheila say...' pass me those shells Dad..I have to shoot you another 4 times'

It certainly can't be said that Sheila is totally ruled out as the shooter.We can hypothesise over where Neville was shot and whether he had the strength to overcome Sheila or at what stage was he supposed to have made the phone call, but given the crime scene and the available evidence it is not a 'jeremy did it' open and shut case. Although it does look a bit stage managed. But if it was stage managed, in order to frame Sheila, surely Jeremy would've gone to the trouble of bloodying up Sheila and making it look like she has been in a struggle or some kind of violent altercation.

After all if it was Jeremy he obviously knew Neville was downstairs in the kitchen battered and bruised so it follows that he would have to give some consideration to Sheila's condition.It doesn't add up that he would leave her in almost pristine condition save for the two shots. Then again he might've been spooked by a noise outside or he might've realised he better get on with the phone call and get back to the cottage to start the second phase of the plan.And just didn't give enough thought to making Sheila look like the killer.

There is no easy explanation one way or the other.

I find this so hard to believe. Jeremy by this stage was leading a separate social life, he had been snooping around the safe, Nevill had told Barbara that "the shooting season's coming up..accidents do happen", the siblings didn't get on..

In my opinion if shooting had commenced and Nevill had been in reach of a telephone he would have used it to call the police.

[lookout]

In my opinion if shooting had commenced and Nevill had been in reach of a telephone he would have used it to call the police.


Not for his own I wouldn't have thought, Steve. Especially a daughter who'd " gone beserk ", Nevill would naturally have thought that he'd have dealt with it himself or even with the help of his son.
Had it been Jeremy on the other end of the rifle then I feel sure a wallop would have been forthcoming from his father, risking what he did when in the Air Force.

[arthur]

In my opinion if shooting had commenced and Nevill had been in reach of a telephone he would have used it to call the police.


Not for his own I wouldn't have thought, Steve. Especially a daughter who'd " gone beserk ", Nevill would naturally have thought that he'd have dealt with it himself or even with the help of his son.
Had it been Jeremy on the other end of the rifle then I feel sure a wallop would have been forthcoming from his father, risking what he did when in the Air Force.

So lets put Jeremy behind the .22. He's in...he's got the loaded weapon checked. His first target has to be Neville...makes his way up the stairs, silently, readying himself, he knows Neville is strong and will need much more than one shot. Opens door thinking 'get Dad first..but June has been woken and he has no choice but to shoot her first..maybe twice..then Neville is moving and is about to react..so Jeremy pumps 1...2..3 shots at him..a 4th..then backs off...Neville thrashes about not knowing whats really happened..Jeremy backs off downstairs..Neville staggers after him..a terrible scene is acted out..Neville is shot a futher 4 times and is beaten and battered. Jeremy reloads and then commits further atrocities. 5 people are dead. Sheila is stage managed. The silencer is taken off and a botched cleaning job is done and it's put away in the cupboard without enough care.

 He fails go back upstairs to make the framing of Sheila more believable. He then sets up the bogus telephone call...maybe he even rings the police station and impersonates Neville, then sets up the call back to his cottage. Maybe cleans himself in case he leaves any trace when he gets out the window and races back to his cottage. Can't change anythink now..to late, police could be here within 20 minutes or so. He gets on his bike in a state of some confusion, not sure if he's set it up well enough.

Is that more or less what happened. Seems more plausible than Sheila being able to do all that, looking as if she has just got out of bed.