Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: sami on September 01, 2016, 10:57:PM
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neville;s lack of blood trail i find strange had he been shot in the bedroom first there should be a trail of blood leading from there to the kitchen the same applies had he been shot in the hall.yet all we find is a smear of blood on the wallpaper on the passage stairs.and i think caroline mentioned some blood outside sheila's room
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Yes Sami, I've found that odd, but I came to the conclusion, after reading about the blood samples from Neville and June.... if mixed in the silencer, being similar to Sheila's... I wondered if June and Neville's blood became mixed Or even Sheila's and Neville's blood became mixed. It still doesn't account for there being no blood on Nevilles pillow or his side of the bed clothes, so I think Neville wasn't in bed when shot four times but nearer to June's side of the bed.
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There is a small blood trial going passed the kitchen table to where Neville's body was found.
After Sheila fires several rounds at the twins, Neville realises he cannot handle the situation and proceeds to call for assistance (Jeremy and Police) from the kitchen phone. While Neville is on the phone June is in bed awake, but too afraid of what is happening to get out. Sheila then goes to the gun cupboard to reload the weapon. Once reloaded she goes back upstairs to the main bedroom and fires a volley of bullets at June. The sound of gunshots and June screaming prompts Neville to leave the phone and run towards the stairs. While Neville is rushing up the stairs, Sheila is in the main bedroom close to the hallway and fires the remaining four bullets in the magazine at Neville. Neville then retreats back towards the kitchen badly injured he staggers across the kitchen then collapses were his body was found. Sheila then goes back to the gun cupboard to reload for the final time. Finds Neville injured and slumped near the cooker, then fires the three more shots to Nevilles head. Then she makes her way back upstairs to fire the remaining two shots to Junes head. Then finally turns the gun on herself as the police are about the break the door down.
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There is a small blood trial going passed the kitchen table to where Neville's body was found.
After Sheila fires several rounds at the twins, Neville realises he cannot handle the situation and proceeds to call for assistance (Jeremy and Police) from the kitchen phone. While Neville is on the phone June is in bed awake, but too afraid of what is happening to get out. Sheila then goes to the gun cupboard to reload the weapon. Once reloaded she goes back upstairs to the main bedroom and fires a volley of bullets at June. The sound of gunshots and June screaming prompts Neville to leave the phone and run towards the stairs. While Neville is rushing up the stairs, Sheila is in the main bedroom close to the hallway and fires the remaining four bullets in the magazine at Neville. Neville then retreats back towards the kitchen badly injured he staggers across the kitchen then collapses were his body was found. Sheila then goes back to the gun cupboard to reload for the final time. Finds Neville injured and slumped near the cooker, then fires the three more shots to Nevilles head. Then she makes her way back upstairs to fire the remaining two shots to Junes head. Then finally turns the gun on herself as the police are about the break the door down.
I assume you agree Sheila and Neville had been up some time. After both getting out of bed. Neither putting on dressing gowns or slippers.
It's a pity Neville waited until Sheila went upstairs with a fully loaded rifle and started shooting the twins before deciding he 'cannot handle the situation'. He could have done something prior to Sheila taking a conviniently loaded rifle and going upstairs. Like take the rifle off her or put it away.
After Sheila fires 'several rounds into the twins' I assume you mean 8 bullets, Neville doesn't jump on her to restrain her and then check on the twins. Although she now has only 2/3 bullets left of a rifle for shooting rabbits. Instead he runs downstairs.
Although Neville has not confronted Sheila upstairs, she surprisingly only fires 8 bullets upstairs rather than empties the rifle in her opening 'gone crazy' salvo. With three bullets left she still decides to reload.
Neville err spends several minutes ringing a 'sleeping like a log' Bamber and the police. Although the police were called 26 minutes later.
Neville also does not ask Bamber, or the police (26 minutes later) for medical assistance.
While Neville is waiting several minutes for Bamber to 'perhaps' answer, he doesn't notice Sheila going to the gun cupboard to reload and then go back upstairs.
June is now awake but too scared of her recovering anorexic daughter who suffers from tardrive dynskensia to go to the twins or Neville. Or lock herself away somewhere. She just stays in bed and lets Sheila shoot her several times while her head is on the pillow.
Neville with his amazing hearing must have heard Sheila's upstairs shots at June at the exact same moment Bamber answered the phone. As he only spent about 6 seconds saying 11 words to Bamber.
Neville then runs upstairs bare footed in just his pyjamas with no protection, I assume to finally smother Sheila so he can give or call for medical assistance. About time to.
Sheila has had time to empty the rifle on June, but expertly still has 4 bullets left. Neville then gets close enough to Sheila to receive 4 close range shots. Two in the head. He doesn't confront Sheila and runs straight back downstairs.
There is then what everyone agrees is a huge kitchen fight. Sheila brutally beating Neville.
With Neville barely alive, Sheila waits several more minutes before telling him to ring Chelmsford police, which was (apparently) Neville's original plan. Why did Sheila do this ? I don't know.
She finally kills him and lifts him over a coal scuttle so his back can be burnt. Sheila is still uninjured with no lubricant or gun shot residue.
Sheila then stays alive until the police enter WHF. Why ? again I cannot answer. Then shoots herself and puts the silencer away without the police noticing.
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Because we haven't got ALL the details of this tragedy at the time when it happened,four newspaper reports had said that Neville had been in the hall. Why would four state this ? This being the case it wouldn't put Neville upstairs at all.
This thread is somewhere on the forum but I've forgotten the heading.
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I've given David the chance to follow Sherlock and Holly and agree Neville didn't phone Chelmsford police. My post above again shows it didn't happen.
The problem is even after dropping Neville's call, any Sheila scenario still has dozens of flaws, as recently posted on Red by me. So it is not worth supporters discarding this card.
Best thing for supporters to do is say Neville called the police, and refuse to give a Sheila scenario. Which is what happens.
But thank you David for a nice Friday surprise and scenario attempt. Again, you're call.
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There is a small blood trial going passed the kitchen table to where Neville's body was found.
After Sheila fires several rounds at the twins, Neville realises he cannot handle the situation and proceeds to call for assistance (Jeremy and Police) from the kitchen phone. While Neville is on the phone June is in bed awake, but too afraid of what is happening to get out. Sheila then goes to the gun cupboard to reload the weapon. Once reloaded she goes back upstairs to the main bedroom and fires a volley of bullets at June. The sound of gunshots and June screaming prompts Neville to leave the phone and run towards the stairs. While Neville is rushing up the stairs, Sheila is in the main bedroom close to the hallway and fires the remaining four bullets in the magazine at Neville. Neville then retreats back towards the kitchen badly injured he staggers across the kitchen then collapses were his body was found. Sheila then goes back to the gun cupboard to reload for the final time. Finds Neville injured and slumped near the cooker, then fires the three more shots to Nevilles head. Then she makes her way back upstairs to fire the remaining two shots to Junes head. Then finally turns the gun on herself as the police are about the break the door down.
yes david ive seen those photo's of the blood in the kitchen.but what i meant was blood trail before he entered the kitchen.i think most of us agree he was first shot upstairs so from the landing to the kitchen there were no droplets of blood on the floor..he may have put his good arm up to the face shots to stop the blood .but the shoulder and arm shots would still be leaking blood.there was some talk on the forum of the smudges of blood on the counter were not tested or the results withheld
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We may,or we may not discover that Neville's blood could well have been found in the hallway as he'd possibly tried to escape via the front door.Not having pics of every room in the house makes it the guessing game that it IS !
Nobody is right.
We can only go by what's already suggested or told by EP ( if you fully believe them ) We're all working blindfold because we simply weren't there,but a lot of information is pretty sketchy and does depend how and which way you view it. Experience of people in general counts for a lot in this case.
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We may,or we may not discover that Neville's blood could well have been found in the hallway as he'd possibly tried to escape via the front door.Not having pics of every room in the house makes it the guessing game that it IS !
Nobody is right.
We can only go by what's already suggested or told by EP ( if you fully believe them ) We're all working blindfold because we simply weren't there,but a lot of information is pretty sketchy and does depend how and which way you view it. Experience of people in general counts for a lot in this case.
very true lookout,we know he did take the stairs cause there blood on the wallpaper at the bottom of the stairs just before the kitchen door.did ep take a photo of the carpet where sheila lay after removing her body,we might be able to see if sheila had been moved if they had photos of it
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Yes Sami, I've found that odd, but I came to the conclusion, after reading about the blood samples from Neville and June.... if mixed in the silencer, being similar to Sheila's... I wondered if June and Neville's blood became mixed Or even Sheila's and Neville's blood became mixed. It still doesn't account for there being no blood on Nevilles pillow or his side of the bed clothes, so I think Neville wasn't in bed when shot four times but nearer to June's side of the bed.
i agree romeo mixing of their blood could explain it.my memory is terrible but i think they tested 3 carpet samples 9 drops of blood on each or 9 drops of blood all together.iam sure someone can correct me if iam wrong
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I assume you agree Sheila and Neville had been up some time. After both getting out of bed. Neither putting on dressing gowns or slippers.
It's a pity Neville waited until Sheila went upstairs with a fully loaded rifle and started shooting the twins before deciding he 'cannot handle the situation'. He could have done something prior to Sheila taking a conviniently loaded rifle and going upstairs. Like take the rifle off her or put it away.
After Sheila fires 'several rounds into the twins' I assume you mean 8 bullets, Neville doesn't jump on her to restrain her and then check on the twins. Although she now has only 2/3 bullets left of a rifle for shooting rabbits. Instead he runs downstairs.
Although Neville has not confronted Sheila upstairs, she surprisingly only fires 8 bullets upstairs rather than empties the rifle in her opening 'gone crazy' salvo. With three bullets left she still decides to reload.
Neville err spends several minutes ringing a 'sleeping like a log' Bamber and the police. Although the police were called 26 minutes later.
Neville also does not ask Bamber, or the police (26 minutes later) for medical assistance.
It was not 26 minutes later, Mugford is a liar
While Neville is waiting several minutes for Bamber to 'perhaps' answer, he doesn't notice Sheila going to the gun cupboard to reload and then go back upstairs.
Nope, because the is another set of stairs at the other end of the house leading down to the office were the gun cupboard is.
June is now awake but too scared of her recovering anorexic daughter who suffers from tardrive dynskensia to go to the twins or Neville. Or lock herself away somewhere. She just stays in bed and lets Sheila shoot her several times while her head is on the pillow.
Neville with his amazing hearing must have heard Sheila's upstairs shots at June at the exact same moment Bamber answered the phone. As he only spent about 6 seconds saying 11 words to Bamber.
Neville then runs upstairs bare footed in just his pyjamas with no protection, I assume to finally smother Sheila so he can give or call for medical assistance. About time to.
Sheila has had time to empty the rifle on June, but expertly still has 4 bullets left. Neville then gets close enough to Sheila to receive 4 close range shots. Two in the head. He doesn't confront Sheila and runs straight back downstairs.
There is then what everyone agrees is a huge kitchen fight. Sheila brutally beating Neville.
With Neville barely alive, Sheila waits several more minutes before telling him to ring Chelmsford police, which was (apparently) Neville's original plan. Why did Sheila do this ? I don't know.
She finally kills him and lifts him over a coal scuttle so his back can be burnt. Sheila is still uninjured with no lubricant or gun shot residue.
Sheila then stays alive until the police enter WHF. Why ? again I cannot answer. Then shoots herself and puts the silencer away without the police noticing.
The silencer was in gun cupboard all night, it was never used. The fight in the kitchen never happed the mess in the kitchen was caused by the police firearms team. see below
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Sherlock and Holly both withdrew from Neville calling Chelmsford police in different circumstances.
Sherlock incorporated it into his scenario, however quickly withdrew it after I highlighted problems. Which was the decent thing to do. Holly didn't include it in her scenario at all.
Bamber brought up the claim in 2010, but has withdrawn it by not including it in the 2012 CCRC submission. But appreciate supporters won't withdraw as it sounds good.
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david did the entry team go in waving their firearms like baseball bats or was any of them 7ft tall because thats the only way the lampshade above the kitchen table could have got broken
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It was not 26 minutes later, Mugford is a liar
Nope, because the is another set of stairs at the other end of the house leading down to the office were the gun cupboard is.
The silencer was in gun cupboard all night, it was never used. The fight in the kitchen never happed the mess in the kitchen was caused by the police firearms team. see below
:)
Bamber's WS said Neville called him at 3.10am. Neville calling Chelmsford police 26 minutes later.
Are you saying both times are wrong and Neville spent at least 15 minutes calling Bamber and then Chelmsford police straight afterwards. Not asking for medical assistance. While the twins were dying and Sheila was reloading. So why only say 11 words to Bamber when he had time to say more ?
The silencer was never used and there was no kitchen fight ? I didn't know that.
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very true lookout,we know he did take the stairs cause there blood on the wallpaper at the bottom of the stairs just before the kitchen door.did ep take a photo of the carpet where sheila lay after removing her body,we might be able to see if sheila had been moved if they had photos of it
Blood at the bottom of the staircase doesn't indicate that he went up those stairs,but possibly attempted to to see what had gone on up there.
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It was not 26 minutes later, Mugford is a liar
Nope, because the is another set of stairs at the other end of the house leading down to the office were the gun cupboard is.
The silencer was in gun cupboard all night, it was never used. The fight in the kitchen never happed the mess in the kitchen was caused by the police firearms team. see below
Jeremy said that he received a call at 03:10 and also states he called the police at 03:36 (now). Nothing to do with Mugford.
There is another set of stairs leading to the office, however, there is a door before the stairs and it was locked!
Raid team statements refute they were responsible for the disruption so it depends on which side of the fence you're on as to who you believe.
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There still remains to be a lot of unanswered questions,some of which weren't even asked at trial. In my estimation Rivlin didn't exactly do a top job. I think he'd still imagined that he was in his prosecuting position the way he'd performed.
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There still remains to be a lot of unanswered questions,some of which weren't even asked at trial. In my estimation Rivlin didn't exactly do a top job. I think he'd still imagined that he was in his prosecuting position the way he'd performed.
I agree with you Lookout.
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Blood at the bottom of the staircase doesn't indicate that he went up those stairs,but possibly attempted to to see what had gone on up there.
no your right it doesnt.but iam not saying he did go up .what iam saying is he went down thoses stairs cause we have his blood outside sheila's room so he had to have been shot upstairs and left the blood on the wallpaper as he fled down stairs
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david did the entry team go in waving their firearms like baseball bats or was any of them 7ft tall because thats the only way the lampshade above the kitchen table could have got broken
It was Crispy.
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It was Crispy.
Are you happy Now you have been given an explanation of how Shelia done the massacre?
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Are you happy Now you have been given an explanation of how Shelia done the massacre?
Very much so. It's all become clear.
The silencer wasn't used.
There was no kitchen fight.
Crispy smashed the ceiling light.
Neville rang Bamber after Sheila started shooting the twins.
Sheila reloaded without being seen.
Sheila made an almost dead Neville ring Chelmsford police later on.
June was awake but too scared to move her head from her pillow.
Neville has very powerful ears.
Neville went downstairs to ring Bamber, upstairs to get shot 4 times from close range and straight back downstairs again.
Sheila stayed alive until the police entered WHF.
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There is a small blood trial going passed the kitchen table to where Neville's body was found.
After Sheila fires several rounds at the twins, Neville realises he cannot handle the situation and proceeds to call for assistance (Jeremy and Police) from the kitchen phone. While Neville is on the phone June is in bed awake, but too afraid of what is happening to get out. Sheila then goes to the gun cupboard to reload the weapon. Once reloaded she goes back upstairs to the main bedroom and fires a volley of bullets at June. The sound of gunshots and June screaming prompts Neville to leave the phone and run towards the stairs. While Neville is rushing up the stairs, Sheila is in the main bedroom close to the hallway and fires the remaining four bullets in the magazine at Neville. Neville then retreats back towards the kitchen badly injured he staggers across the kitchen then collapses were his body was found. Sheila then goes back to the gun cupboard to reload for the final time. Finds Neville injured and slumped near the cooker, then fires the three more shots to Nevilles head. Then she makes her way back upstairs to fire the remaining two shots to Junes head. Then finally turns the gun on herself as the police are about the break the door down.
In your story David you have Sheila like a professional Assasin, reload, volley, reload, stagger, retreat hope they believe your stories on the other channel?
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Sherlock and Holly both withdrew from Neville calling Chelmsford police in different circumstances.
Sherlock incorporated it into his scenario, however quickly withdrew it after I highlighted problems. Which was the decent thing to do. Holly didn't include it in her scenario at all.
Bamber brought up the claim in 2010, but has withdrawn it by not including it in the 2012 CCRC submission. But appreciate supporters won't withdraw as it sounds good.
talking of the 2012 appeal do we have a full copy anywhere of the judgement on why refused.
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talking of the 2012 appeal do we have a full copy anywhere of the judgement on why refused.
How I understand it Notsure, Bamber didn't or wouldn't release it? Could be wrong though
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Have a look at this Notsure, is this it just off to work?
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3777.0.html
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Have a look at this Notsure, is this it just off to work?
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3777.0.html
That was the Judicial Review findings.
The application to the CCRC initially resulted in an 89 page report outlining reasons for their decision.
http://www.ccrc.gov.uk/ccrc-statement-on-the-provisonal-decision-in-the-case-of-jeremy-bamber/
(http://www.ccrc.gov.uk/ccrc-statement-on-the-provisonal-decision-in-the-case-of-jeremy-bamber/)
The defence were obviously given a copy but the CCRC have not released it to the public.
Basically it isn't available.
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I wonder at so many hidden documents----makes it all the more suspicious to my mind.
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I wonder at so many hidden documents----makes it all the more suspicious to my mind.
It's not hidden. The defence haven't released it. They are able to. NGB supported its release. The defence chose not to, you'll have to ask Bamber why he didn't want it releasing.
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I wonder at so many hidden documents----makes it all the more suspicious to my mind.
thanks all, i did try and get it but couldnt so it does seem rather odd.
oh well another mystery
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Have a look at this Notsure, is this it just off to work?
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3777.0.html
thanks justice.
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It's not hidden. The defence haven't released it. They are able to. NGB supported its release. The defence chose not to, you'll have to ask Bamber why he didn't want
mmmmm surely its not just the defence that make that deciscion. I think it was a court deciscion.
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The CCRC release the document to the defence. It is up to the defence if they release it publicly. They chose not to. NGB was in favour of its release.
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Everything's a conspiracy. :P
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That was the Judicial Review findings.
The application to the CCRC initially resulted in an 89 page report outlining reasons for their decision.
http://www.ccrc.gov.uk/ccrc-statement-on-the-provisonal-decision-in-the-case-of-jeremy-bamber/
(http://www.ccrc.gov.uk/ccrc-statement-on-the-provisonal-decision-in-the-case-of-jeremy-bamber/)
The defence were obviously given a copy but the CCRC have not released it to the public.
Basically it isn't available.
Thanks Hartley, when I checked I realised
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David often posts bits of CCRC transcripts. Obviously the bits that support what he is saying. Perhaps Bamber has sent a copy to him.
I did request that a link is posted to it, but got no response.
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Everything's a conspiracy. :P
Even when it isn't! ;D
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It was Crispy.
now what role crispy played we can only guess like jb he never talked.he may have kept 'dog' while jb was doing his killings .but he didnt spill the beans on jb even after hearing jb say i hate that f.....g dog and will have it put down,he gave a no comment interview which has not been released.conspiracy yes
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David often posts bits of CCRC transcripts. Obviously the bits that support what he is saying. Perhaps Bamber has sent a copy to him.
I did request that a link is posted to it, but got no response.
I don't have the CCRC transcripts. I was using the summary of the legal action, and Its on here for all to see. I was using the bits relevant to the discussion at hand
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Thanks Hartley, when I checked I realised
I seem to remember that the CCRC gave a preliminary report giving their reasons for not accepting the application, which was put together before Simon Mackay took on the case, he then negotiated an extension of time and instead of using the previously submitted grounds, he concentrated on new forensic evidence in respect of the burn marks to Neville's back. Following the additional submissions the CCRC still refused the application.
Reasons for refusal would be set out to the applicant but I don't believe it is usual for the CCRC to publish the reasons themselves.
I suppose the defence could publish the responses if they wanted to, but there probably isn't really any benefit for them to do so.
They did publish a blog article summarising the reasons, how accurate it was is unknown.
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I seem to remember that the CCRC gave a preliminary report giving their reasons for not accepting the application, which was put together before Simon Mackay took on the case, he then negotiated an extension of time and instead of using the previously submitted grounds, he concentrated on new forensic evidence in respect of the burn marks to Neville's back. Following the additional submissions the CCRC still refused the application.
Reasons for refusal would be set out to the applicant but I don't believe it is usual for the CCRC to publish the reasons themselves.
I suppose the defence could publish the responses if they wanted to, but there probably isn't really any benefit for them to do so.
They did publish a blog article summarising the reasons, how accurate it was is unknown.
I have written about this before. I copied and pasted what I wrote
I have quoted three separate passages. Hope this makes sense
34. The evidence of Dr Fowler is set out in a more substantial report. That report has been peer?reviewed by Dr Dragovich, who is Chief Medical Examiner in Oakland County, Michigan and Dr Marcella Fierro, who is the retired Chief Medical Examiner to the Commonwealth of Virginia. Both have qualifications as forensic pathologists. In his careful report, Dr Fowler makes clear that he has reviewed the evidence, which was available in relation to the wounds. He concluded that the abrasions found were consistent with those of a rifle without a silencer, that there were no distinctive marks on the body which showed that a silencer had been attached, and the residue was consistent with contact wounds. He refers to further work that needs doing, a matter to which I will return in a moment.
35. The Commission's judgment on this matter, which is set out carefully in its decision, is at paragraphs 360 to 362. First of all, it is said that Dr Fowler did not deal with the fact that there was no residue found in the rifle, but there was the blood flake found in the silencer. Although there is really no answer to the first half of that observation, as regards the second there is the point, on which I was prepared to make an assumption, namely that there may be a problem with the blood flake. I have made that assumption because it seems to me that it is possible to do so by reference to the other reasons given by the Commission. The first is the fact that the evidence of Dr Fowler does not grapple with the evidence of the fight in the kitchen and the paint evidence
38. Taking, therefore, the three grounds relied on together, and for this purpose making an assumption again in favour of Mr Bamber on the first point, but doing so on the basis that the second and third points, namely the report of Dr Caruso and the report of Dr Fowler, have been dealt with by the Commission in a way that is not open to challenge,
11. That question again has resolved into a narrow issue as to whether, when the fatal shot was fired in the kitchen at the father, Mr Bamber senior, the rifle used had on it a silencer, it being accepted that if there was a silencer on it at that time the prospects of the sister being the murderer were nil.
they could have denied an application for an appeal. The silencer itself consists of two pillars of evidence
A - The blood on the inside that matches Sheila
B - The Paint on the outside that matches the AGA surround.
Dismantling A is all well and good but then you still have B showing the silencer was still used on the night. The same applies vice versa. For argument sake, If it was proven that the marks on Sheila's neck/chin show silencer abrasions but Jeremy could prove the scratches were put there afterwards, it does not overcome the evidence against him.
Dr Caruso and Peter Suthurst's evidence is not 100% conclusive. But in my view they show a high probablility of the scratches being made after the 7th.
The logic applied by the CCRC makes sense, But it is raising the bar extremely high.
If it can be proven 100% that the scratches were made after the murders then they would probably have to grant an appeal.
the COA have already made a judgment back in 2002 on the relevant issue
The sound moderator had on any view been attached to the rifle during the fight with Nevill Bamber in the kitchen. But if Sheila Caffell had committed suicide it must have been removed before she shot herself
Had the appellant's sister murdered the other members of her family with the moderator attached to the gun and then discovered she could not reach the trigger to kill herself, the moderator would have been found next to her body. There would have been no reason for her to have removed it and returned it to the gun cupboard before going back upstairs to commit suicide in her parents' room.
This brings us back the 2012 Judgment
That question again has resolved into a narrow issue as to whether, when the fatal shot was fired in the kitchen at the father, Mr Bamber senior, the rifle used had on it a silencer, it being accepted that if there was a silencer on it at that time the prospects of the sister being the murderer were nil.
This is why the appeal was denied and the court sided with the CCRC
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I have written about this before. I copied and pasted what I wrote
..................................................................................................
I was referring to reasons for the CCRC's official responses not being in the public domain, not the contents or any arguments contained therein.
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It's not hidden. The defence haven't released it. They are able to. NGB supported its release. The defence chose not to, you'll have to ask Bamber why he didn't want it releasing.
I'll do just that.
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I'll do just that.
let us know what he says about it
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Very much so. It's all become clear.
The silencer wasn't used.
There was no kitchen fight.
Crispy smashed the ceiling light.
Neville rang Bamber after Sheila started shooting the twins.
Sheila reloaded without being seen.
Sheila made an almost dead Neville ring Chelmsford police later on.
June was awake but too scared to move her head from her pillow.
Neville has very powerful ears.
Neville went downstairs to ring Bamber, upstairs to get shot 4 times from close range and straight back downstairs again.
Sheila stayed alive until the police entered WHF.
Yes very clear indeed. What is your position now? and what do you make of Scipio disappearing?
Not looking very good for the pro guilt side if you ask me
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If I saw him as a threat why would I continue debating him on the other forum? enough said..
Since he has made no appearance In the last two month, I have tried to contact him but to no avail.
its a shame david cause ive read both your posts and it was a verygood debate good explanations from both sides,so its just upto the person reading them to pick a side
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its a shame david cause ive read both your posts and it was a verygood debate good explanations from both sides,so its just upto the person reading them to pick a side
Some people ask why the guilty side post when Jeremy is behind bars. When they stop. it because he's as good as free. What complete rot! People have lives, things happen that are more important than this place. There is nothing new to discuss, we go around and around and and it gets old. Scipio didn't run away from anyone, least of all - from David. This is yet another instance of him bigging himself up.
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Caroline Lemonhead/Scipio sent me a PM some while back, he as good as said the same as you and the site exists for certain people to spread their propaganda it seems, nothing new will come up because there is nothing?
Justice, when I first joined -believing Jeremy was innocent- we were given to believe that his release was imminent. We were told there was categorical proof, in pictures, of his innocence. Over time, because these pictures failed to materialise, it became clear that it wasn't so. The same cant is still being touted, albeit, worded differently.
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Justice, when I first joined -believing Jeremy was innocent- we were given to believe that his release was imminent. We were told there was categorical proof, in pictures, of his innocence. Over time, because these pictures failed to materialise, it became clear that it wasn't so. The same cant is still being touted, albeit, worded differently.
Thats true Jane, numerous posters have changed from innocent to guilty, I cannot think of one vise versa?
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Justice, when I first joined -believing Jeremy was innocent- we were given to believe that his release was imminent. We were told there was categorical proof, in pictures, of his innocence. Over time, because these pictures failed to materialise, it became clear that it wasn't so. The same cant is still being touted, albeit, worded differently.
yes jane thats a favorite ploy of theirs .but i think we all know now that jb will die in prison :)
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Thats true Jane, numerous posters have changed from innocent to guilty, I cannot think of one vise versa?
correct justice.also no one famous has also swapped sides to innocent. i think there have been a couple of them who have changed from innocent to guilty :)
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Oh stop. ;D Bamber is behind bars and has been for over three decades, he has no genuine chance of the CCRC choosing to refer his case to the COA again and the CCRC were found to have come to their decision lawfully. McKay seemed like Bambers best chance in years and he has now abandoned ship leaving unnamed law professionals apparently working for him but not willing to publicly back him.
All Bamber has left are :
1). A campaign team that contiinue to disgrace him and bring him the worst press and public opinion that he has had since his trial, he's now seen like a mini Charles Manson able to order his supporters to do his bidding for him from behind bars.
2.) A few supporters on forums that seem to still be bringing up rubbish like a phone call from Neville, police killing Sheila etc...... NOT because the CCRC will ever take this seriously but because they want to 'win' on a forum that they've put so much of their time into, it's almost not about Bamber anymore but more "Look what I've found" "Praise me for this".
Of course, there are some genuine supporters but they have gotten less and less over the years as alot of people have even been discarded or change their stance on the case.
Number 2, now that reminds me of someone?
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correct justice.also no one famous has also swapped sides to innocent. i think there have been a couple of them who have changed from innocent to guilty :)
Even Brett Collins changed his mind, reading the Deviant?
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Oh stop. ;D Bamber is behind bars and has been for over three decades, he has no genuine chance of the CCRC choosing to refer his case to the COA again and the CCRC were found to have come to their decision lawfully. McKay seemed like Bambers best chance in years and he has now abandoned ship leaving unnamed law professionals apparently working for him but not willing to publicly back him.
All Bamber has left are :
1). A campaign team that contiinue to disgrace him and bring him the worst press and public opinion that he has had since his trial, he's now seen like a mini Charles Manson able to order his supporters to do his bidding for him from behind bars.
2.) A few supporters on forums that seem to still be bringing up rubbish like a phone call from Neville, police killing Sheila etc...... NOT because the CCRC will ever take this seriously but because they want to 'win' on a forum that they've put so much of their time into, it's almost not about Bamber anymore but more "Look what I've found" "Praise me for this".
Of course, there are some genuine supporters but they have gotten less and less over the years as alot of people have even been discarded or change their stance on the case.
Spot on Mat!
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Even Brett Collins changed his mind, reading the Deviant?
Oh Dear. You actually believe that phone call between Brett and PH took place? How convenient PH gets random letters and phone calls from witnesses. Its also very strange he quotes "new evidence" from the dead. He has claimed not long ago that he always believed Jeremy was guilty, this exposes him as a liar one way or the other. He changes his mind then suddenly remembers a damning conversation he had with the now deceased Ed Lawson back in 2002 ::)
It sais allot about the evidence against Jeremy when an author pushing for guilt has to make evidence up. The fact such a book has been published actually does Jeremy a favour.
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Oh Dear. You actually believe that phone call between Brett and PH took place? How convenient PH gets random letters and phone calls from witnesses. Its also very strange he quotes "new evidence" from the dead. He has claimed not long ago that he always believed Jeremy was guilty, this exposes him as a liar one way or the other. He changes his mind then suddenly remembers a damning conversation he had with the now deceased Ed Lawson back in 2002 ::)
It sais allot about the evidence against Jeremy when an author pushing for guilt has to make evidence up. The fact such a book has been published actually does Jeremy a favour.
Strange how Brett has never come out in support of his mate?
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lets get back to the topic ,not a drop of blood on the upstairs landing or the stairs
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Now run along and do your usual tale-telling,rotti. Can't stand them either.
lookout you yourself have said you dont think sheila fired the first shot because of where it struck the bone. :)
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Hope not Lookout here's mine,
http://metro.co.uk/2014/06/21/worlds-ugliest-dog-contest-2014-top-10-photos-4770587/#&gid=1&pid=8
Aw,I don't think that's ugly.Just unfortunate.
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lookout you yourself have said you dont think sheila fired the first shot because of where it struck the bone. :)
I still don't.
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I still don't.
who are you saying did fire the first shot
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who are you saying did fire the first shot
I'm saying nothing.
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I'm saying nothing.
yes very sensible lookout . ;)never reveal your hand.i bet your good at poker
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we are all waiting with baited breath for the 'forensic evidence breakthrough'lets hope it happens in our lifetime ;D
I believe Lookout has made a 'forensic evidence breakthrough'. Hopefully confirmation to be supplied today with a good source or a copy of the suicide note.
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https://youtu.be/mmCART1vcCo
As I said a few days ago, Mike banned Scipio, who then started posting on Red. Scipio must have seen Mike's video above or one of Trudie's and then changed stance to innocent.
It's good that you have followed Sherlock and Holly and ruled out Neville phoning Chelmsford police. Crossing it out from my list in reply 44.
You also crossed out Crispy smashing the ceiling lampshade. On second thoughts I agree with you, the lampshade was smashed during the kitchen fight, rather than by Crispy.
The things you didn't cross out now just need to be proved, via some more 'forensic evidence breakthroughs'. Good luck.
Problem about the kitchen light is that it was on while Jeremy was outside with police. So even crispy is a more viable suspect for who broke it ;D
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Problem about the kitchen light is that it was on while Jeremy was outside with police. So even crispy is a more viable suspect for who broke it ;D
It was the shade that was broken.
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Scipio will agree that the police didn't consider that Bamber could have entered WHF through Neville and June's upstairs bedroom window. And agree that Bamber didn't 'lobb Julie overboard'.
I'm not sure these would have made him change stance.
However Mike's recent video may have persuaded him to think again and join the CT. A future Youtube video from Scipio perhaps ?
In private conversation I did reveal to him (to some extent) my forensic breakthrough, around the time he stopped posting. :-\
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In private conversation I did reveal to him (to some extent) my forensic breakthrough, around the time he stopped posting. :-\
Actually. I do have a question about the breakthrough.... This is as good a topic as any, I guess. But you mentioned on the forum you presented your findings to Andrew Hunter and had him make the approach for you because it would have more credence coming from him......Yet in the letter from Bamber where you have told him what you've found... Bamber is telling you to forward it to his lawyers... So you hadn't approached Hunter with it? :-\
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Yeah that must be why then. ::)
:)) :)) :))
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Actually. I do have a question about the breakthrough.... This is as good a topic as any, I guess. But you mentioned on the forum you presented your findings to Andrew Hunter and had him make the approach for you because it would have more credence coming from him......Yet in the letter from Bamber where you have told him what you've found... Bamber is telling you to forward it to his lawyers... So you hadn't approached Hunter with it? :-\
good point mat.waiting for his response ;)
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Actually. I do have a question about the breakthrough.... This is as good a topic as any, I guess. But you mentioned on the forum you presented your findings to Andrew Hunter and had him make the approach for you because it would have more credence coming from him......Yet in the letter from Bamber where you have told him what you've found... Bamber is telling you to forward it to his lawyers... So you hadn't approached Hunter with it? :-\
Here is what happened in exact order.
1. I presented it to Andrew Hunter. who said he would send it to lawyers
2. I told Jeremy about it and that he should ring or write to Andrew Hunter for more info.
3. Jeremy's reply told me to sent it straight to the lawyers at the address written. I don't know if he has spoken to AH or not.
4. I e-mailed the law office and asked them to pass it onto the QC. I password protected the email contents. they had to ring me in order to open it. This was so I could tell if they acted on it or not
5. They never rang me. Andrew Hunter had no luck either. (They didn't pass our information because we are not solicitors) >:(
6. Went down to the London law office address in JBs letter. Showed reception staff JBs letter, they didn't take me seriously and told me to go home. LOL
7. As I was leaving I saw the QC outside having a cigarette. I approached him and told him the situation then went to his office to give him all the info on a USB stick. Job done
From step one to step seven took around 2 months. :(
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I can agree because he was typically ruthless in his approach to this particular case and would have had JB hung,drawn and quartered without a second thought.
i think theres thousands of people who would like jb to get the above :)
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i think theres thousands of people who would like jb to get the above :)
Yes,and they've got to be careful what they wish for too !
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we know you are Sami. its nothing to be ashamed of :)
give it a couple of years and people will be laughing at ya than you will have to go into hiding :)) :))
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Yes,and they've got to be careful what they wish for too !
why
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give it a couple of years and people will be laughing at ya than you will have to go into hiding :)) :))
Il remind you of this in a few years. 8)
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Il remind you of this in a few years. 8)
please do ;D
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I can agree because he was typically ruthless in his approach to this particular case and would have had JB hung,drawn and quartered without a second thought.
I wonder if the Jury verdict would be different if the death sentence was still in effect? :-\
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I wonder if the Jury verdict would be different if the death sentence was still in effect? :-\
One thing for sure,the investigation would have been more thorough,making the jury think twice over a few things. I have to wonder at withheld evidence with the death penalty in-situ. Would more heads have been rolling then ?
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i think you have to be a law abiding citizen to be on jury service.as you didnt know the jury .thats a bit harsh i think :)
true Sami, I felt sorry for the people on the jury having to go through the trial, must have been awful listening how Bamber cold blooded killed those poor innocent kids, looking at the photos of the murders and then seeing Bamber's face show no emotion, no wonder some of the jury was crying, I bet they still have nightmares re-living that trial, now they have to listen as Bamber, sells pens, mugs and does a bake off.
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All the more reason why the verdict shouldn't have been based on the emotional side of things. Sad and horrendous as it all was,because believe me or not, revenge would have got the better of me and I'd have gone for JB's throat whether in a courtroom or not,but you CAN'T think or be led on those lines and this was NOT what it was all about.
The investigation was a bad one so the main pointer would have been that JB had killed two little boys,but for me,it didn't go deep enough as there was no trace whatsoever of JB having murdered anyone that night. Just because " he showed no emotion " ,though how that was known when nobody here was present fail to understand,hearsay again ?? Lack of emotion keeps a person from crumbling so that they can face up and speak up in a forthright and honest way.
The majority of murderers,lawbreakers are reduced to whingeing when being questioned as they think it will halt any more questioning because of their " state of despair " as they lie through their teeth.
We've seen it with many !! The Philpotts and look at the many children they murdered ! Evil pair.
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true Sami, I felt sorry for the people on the jury having to go through the trial, must have been awful listening how Bamber cold blooded killed those poor innocent kids, looking at the photos of the murders and then seeing Bamber's face show no emotion, no wonder some of the jury was crying, I bet they still have nightmares re-living that trial, now they have to listen as Bamber, sells pens, mugs and does a bake off.
yes justice ,iam sure it was hard for them being there 1st hand.poor lot they still cant win even though they did their job.they still get accused of making the wrong decision
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I think this is Neville's blood trail mentioned in Taff Jones note book
There were small amounts of blood dripped on the floor of the stairs and landing
This confirms there is not just blood on the wall but on the stairs and landing also
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I think this is Neville's blood trail mentioned in Taff Jones note book
There were small amounts of blood dripped on the floor of the stairs and landing
This confirms there is not just blood on the wall but on the stairs and landing also
did taff also have a photo of it in his wallet.cause if not it means nothing because theres no photos of it in crime secne photos.just the ramblings of an officer who got it wrong and was too proud admit it
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did taff also have a photo of it in his wallet.cause if not it means nothing because theres no photos of it in crime secne photos.just the ramblings of an officer who got it wrong and was too proud admit it
(https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/ricky-gervais-laughing.gif?w=620&h=413&crop=1)
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you little boy go do your homework.posting bullshit like your some expert.shove taffs notebook where the sun dont shine. :)) :)) :)) :)) :))
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I've always wondered what happened to any swab results from Neville's or June's hands ( if they were ever taken ) as both of them were in a terrible state. Whether their hands would have shown gun residue during a struggle as both had " grab " marks on their forearms,when they both would have tried to get the gun off Sheila,surely ??
If not,why just swab Sheila ?
This was a murder scene in which three adults were involved,so why have we only got results from one person ?
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I've always wondered what happened to any swab results from Neville's or June's hands ( if they were ever taken ) as both of them were in a terrible state. Whether their hands would have shown gun residue during a struggle as both had " grab " marks on their forearms,when they both would have tried to get the gun off Sheila,surely ??
If not,why just swab Sheila ?
This was a murder scene in which three adults were involved,so why have we only got results from one person ?
Because Sheila was considered the perpatrator. No need to swab the others, the gun was layng neatly on Sheila's body to indicate her role in the massacre.
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Because Sheila was considered the perpatrator. No need to swab the others, the gun was layng neatly on Sheila's body to indicate her role in the massacre.
The gun was laying on Sheila's body because of her culpability in the massacre.
You provide no answer for the hypostasis, yet you continue to peddle guilt without a shred of evidence to justify this position. Then you avoid the questions you cannot get past in some cases you deny the question has been put to you.
This is a symptom of either agenda or xxxxxxxx I suspect its a combination of both.
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Because Sheila was considered the perpatrator. No need to swab the others, the gun was layng neatly on Sheila's body to indicate her role in the massacre.
There's EVERY need to swab EVERYONE in a murder scene. Unless of course " Taff " knew differently to which we haven't seen his indicator that it was murder/suicide. There HAS to be one.
That gun had been" placed " onto Sheila.It wouldn't have just lain there after a belt-back from a rifle. Sheila hadn't even been left " grasping " the rifle with her hand locked in rigor mortis, as happens when a weapon has to be prized from a deceased person.
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The gun was laying on Sheila's body because of her culpability in the massacre.
You provide no answer for the hypostasis, yet you continue to peddle guilt without a shred of evidence to justify this position. Then you avoid the questions you cannot get past in some cases you deny the question has been put to you.
This is a symptom of either agenda or xxxxxxxx. I suspect its a combination of both.
You're an x xxxx David and once again you're projecting. I really have no wish to debate anything with you - you have no proof for your hypostasis claims, you just have a big mouth and you hope that will get you by. It doesn't! Some of us can see right through you.
The above comment shows you up for what you are - do you have any indication of what 'insanity' is? The accusation is moronic in the extreme and as for agenda? What agenda do I have David? I believe Jeremy killed his entire family and tried to frame his sister. As such, I think he is where he belongs - END OF! I don't sit in my bedroom obsessed with manipulating photographs on various software programes hopeing I find a UREKA moment that might project me into the spotlight because I am inadquate in the outside world - I will leave that to the likes of YOU and just stick to the facts. I'll leave you to search for an appropriiate little gif that only you will think it hilarious. However, I really wouldn't bother because you're going on IGNORE, I've read enough of your bullshit!
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There's EVERY need to swab EVERYONE in a murder scene. Unless of course " Taff " knew differently to which we haven't seen his indicator that it was murder/suicide. There HAS to be one.
That gun had been" placed " onto Sheila.It wouldn't have just lain there after a belt-back from a rifle. Sheila hadn't even been left " grasping " the rifle with her hand locked in rigor mortis, as happens when a weapon has to be prized from a deceased person.
Why would they need to swab everyone Lookout? The other four were dead and clearly hadn't shot themselves or anyone else. They were clearly the victims of gun shots and the gun lay on Sheila. I'm glad you can see it had been placed there though.
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The gun was laying on Sheila's body because of her culpability in the massacre.
You provide no answer for the hypostasis, yet you continue to peddle guilt without a shred of evidence to justify this position. Then you avoid the questions you cannot get past in some cases you deny the question has been put to you.
This is a symptom of either agenda or xxxxxxxx. I suspect its a combination of both.
David,anyone could have placed the rifle there to MAKE it look like suicide. It's NOT where the rifle was found originally judging by the photographs of her.Any fool can place a rifle pointing towards the wound/s. ::)
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You're an xxxxx David and once again you're projecting. I really have no wish to debate anything with you - you have no proof for your hypostasis claims, you just have a big mouth and you hope that will get you by. It doesn't! Some of us can see right through you.
The above comment shows you up for what you are - do you have any indication of what 'insanity' is? The accusation is moronic in the extreme and as for agenda? What agenda do I have David? I believe Jeremy killed his entire family and tried to frame his sister as such, I think he is where he belongs - END OF! I don't sit in my bedroom obsessed with manipulating photographs on various software programes hopeing I find a UREKA moment that might project me into the spotlight because I am inadquate in the outside world - I will leave that to the likes of YOU and just stick to the facts. I'll leave you to search for an appropriiate little gif that only you will think it hilarious. However, I really wouldn't bother because you're going on IGNORE, I've read enough of your bullshit!
I guess I hit a nerve........ truth must hurt :-\
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Why would they need to swab everyone Lookout? The other four were dead and clearly hadn't shot themselves or anyone else. They were clearly the victims of gun shots and the gun lay on Sheila. I'm glad you can see it had been placed there though.
There were also other marks on both Neville and June,besides gunshot wounds,which would have indicated a struggle. This is why their hands and nails should have been investigated.
No such marks on Sheila-----just gunshots.
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I don't know about Sheila having been the " white witch " that she'd purported to have been when she told Helen Grimster that she was one. A " Witch-Finder " would have used the methods of the burns which were found on Neville. Severe beatings pain and humiliation. The method used in witch-finding were marks inflicted with a hot iron to see if the victim was guilty or innocent.If innocent,the marks wouldn't draw blood,if guilty of course they would bleed. These were marks " of the Devil " which were inflicted,so both Witch and Devil ensued. Another method was " clawing " of which were also found on Neville's forearm,both injuries initiating obedience and service.
Strange how the last victim of the Witch-Finder was in Essex in 1945,where Matthew Hopkins had executed his last victim by driving iron rivets through a woman's body so that she wouldn't escape from the grave.
Sheila may at one time,have read about witches in that particular area,although they frequented the country in most areas but it was Hopkins who'd made sure that they didn't survive long.
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I don't know about Sheila having been the " white witch " that she'd purported to have been when she told Helen Grimster that she was one. A " Witch-Finder " would have used the methods of the burns which were found on Neville. Severe beatings pain and humiliation. The method used in witch-finding were marks inflicted with a hot iron to see if the victim was guilty or innocent.If innocent,the marks wouldn't draw blood,if guilty of course they would bleed. These were marks " of the Devil " which were inflicted,so both Witch and Devil ensued. Another method was " clawing " of which were also found on Neville's forearm,both injuries initiating obedience and service.
Strange how the last victim of the Witch-Finder was in Essex in 1945,where Matthew Hopkins had executed his last victim by driving iron rivets through a woman's body so that she wouldn't escape from the grave.
Sheila may at one time,have read about witches in that particular area,although they frequented the country in most areas but it was Hopkins who'd made sure that they didn't survive long.
I return the compliment, a very interesting post, Lookout.
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we have gone off topic.neviile's blood trail :)
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we have gone off topic.neviile's blood trail :)
This WAS about Neville,so stop being so clever !
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This WAS about Neville,so stop being so clever !
iam not being clever.it tells us nothing of neviiles blood trail
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iam not being clever.it tells us nothing of neviiles blood trail
If you can do any better----------------------------------------------
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This thread was usurped from David's of the 4th of September anyway !!
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This thread was usurped from David's of the 4th of September anyway !!
good for you and good for david