Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: TheBrilliantMistake on March 11, 2011, 11:50:AM
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OK - some logical thinking for this one:
Assumptions: Sheila's killed everybody, and now it's time to kill herself (and NO remaining bullets found in the gun after she's found dead)...
- Sheila shoots herself, and it fails.
WHY is there a spare bullet in the gun for her to shoot herself again? (pure luck? did she load with two bullets 'just in case' ?
- Sheila shoots herself, and it fails.
There is NO spare bullet - she now has to go and GET ONE!!!! and come back to the same resting place to shoot herself again?
- Jeremy shoots her, and it fails.
He has to load the gun with another bullet (or there are still bullets remaining), so he shoots her for the second time then makes sure the gun is empty <----- MISTAKE here
For the gun to be empty when found, Sheila either got very lucky and it just happened to have two bullets left, OR she had to get up from the first shot, retrieve and load a new bullet, and then move back to the same place to shoot herself again
I think Jeremy made a mistake leaving the gun empty and didn't consider this strange situation.
Thoughts?
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I know! The fact that the gun had no more bullets has puzzled me too.
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It also puzzles me why Dr Craig only saw one gunshot wound
Maybe he didn't look very closely. If he did only see one, he managed to miss the other one because according to Mike, by the time Dr Craig saw Sheila she had been shot twice.
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It also puzzles me why Dr Craig only saw one gunshot wound
Maybe he didn't look very closely. If he did only see one, he managed to miss the other one because according to Mike, by the time Dr Craig saw Sheila she had been shot twice.
Or three times in other pathologists notes.
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It also puzzles me why Dr Craig only saw one gunshot wound
Maybe he didn't look very closely. If he did only see one, he managed to miss the other one because according to Mike, by the time Dr Craig saw Sheila she had been shot twice.
Or three times in other pathologists notes.
Or possibly even four times!
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Back on topic....
Any confirmation that the gun had zero bullets left?
The police 'made it safe' but did this include removing bullets. I'd always got the impression they checked it was safe, and it already was (therefore empty), but this could be just my mind making assumptions.
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Back on topic....
Any confirmation that the gun had zero bullets left?
The police 'made it safe' but did this include removing bullets. I'd always got the impression they checked it was safe, and it already was (therefore empty), but this could be just my mind making assumptions.
DI Cook said at the trial that the gun was checked for bullets, but he didn't actually say whether any were found or not.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,185.0.html
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Back on topic....
Any confirmation that the gun had zero bullets left?
The police 'made it safe' but did this include removing bullets. I'd always got the impression they checked it was safe, and it already was (therefore empty), but this could be just my mind making assumptions.
On that evidence alone then, I personally would say we don't know. There could well have been, and so the zero bullets theory might be interesting but holds little water.
A bit remiss of him to not say if bullets were there, but I think (from memory) the context of the questioning was more about the reasons for moving the gun, so he was just clarifying the gun was made safe. There might have been more detail if questioned about his inspection of the gun.
DI Cook said at the trial that the gun was checked for bullets, but he didn't actually say whether any were found or not.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,185.0.html
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It also puzzles me why Dr Craig only saw one gunshot wound
Maybe he didn't look very closely. If he did only see one, he managed to miss the other one because according to Mike, by the time Dr Craig saw Sheila she had been shot twice.
Strangely, Dr Craig did say he saw one gunshot wound 'at this stage'
I got the impression that Dr Craig didn't look at the bodies very closely. He doesn't seem to have been asked about the time of death or anything, he was just there to certify death. Is that correct?
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Back on topic....
Any confirmation that the gun had zero bullets left?
The police 'made it safe' but did this include removing bullets. I'd always got the impression they checked it was safe, and it already was (therefore empty), but this could be just my mind making assumptions.
The statement that the police "made it safe" would necessarily involve removing any bullets remaining in the rifle. This is particularly important with a semi-automatic rifle such as the one here. However although they should have done the police may not have recorded whether or not bullets were removed and if so how many. On the other hand this may be included in police notebooks which have yet to be disclosed.
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Back on topic....
Any confirmation that the gun had zero bullets left?
The police 'made it safe' but did this include removing bullets. I'd always got the impression they checked it was safe, and it already was (therefore empty), but this could be just my mind making assumptions.
DI Cook said at the trial that the gun was checked for bullets, but he didn't actually say whether any were found or not.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,185.0.html
His testimony is quite waffley really isn't it? He seems to answer a question without actually answering it.
So continuing with the scenario we are working with, assuming Sheila wasn't the killer. What reason would the police have for being cagey about how many bullets if any were left in the rifle?
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Back on topic....
Any confirmation that the gun had zero bullets left?
The police 'made it safe' but did this include removing bullets. I'd always got the impression they checked it was safe, and it already was (therefore empty), but this could be just my mind making assumptions.
DI Cook said at the trial that the gun was checked for bullets, but he didn't actually say whether any were found or not.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,185.0.html
His testimony is quite waffley really isn't it? He seems to answer a question without actually answering it.
So continuing with the scenario we are working with, assuming Sheila wasn't the killer. What reason would the police have for being cagey about how many bullets if any were left in the rifle?
I can't really see a reason for the police to be cagey on it...
The way I'm thinking though is that zero bullets lets feels strange... Sheila couldn't KNOW she'd need two to kill herself. She she was very lucky to have two left, or she had to get up and fetch another bullet!
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I can't really see a reason for the police to be cagey on it...
The way I'm thinking though is that zero bullets lets feels strange... Sheila couldn't KNOW she'd need two to kill herself. She she was very lucky to have two left, or she had to get up and fetch another bullet!
Is there any mileage in the possibility that Sheila wasn't originally planned to be the suicide scapegoat, it's just that the way things unfolded that the opportunity presented itself to blame her?
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I can't really see a reason for the police to be cagey on it...
The way I'm thinking though is that zero bullets lets feels strange... Sheila couldn't KNOW she'd need two to kill herself. She she was very lucky to have two left, or she had to get up and fetch another bullet!
Is there any mileage in the possibility that Sheila wasn't originally planned to be the suicide scapegoat, it's just that the way things unfolded that the opportunity presented itself to blame her?
Possible I suppose. He might just have been going for the robbery scenario. In which case, he'd need a way to carry some valuables, and in doing so, would immediately initiate a murder hunt.
The suicide works better for him, but as you say, he could have reached that conclusion mid crime.
I don't believe so though. I think whilst not meticulously planned, it was reasonably well plotted (just my opinion)
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Back on topic....
Any confirmation that the gun had zero bullets left?
The police 'made it safe' but did this include removing bullets. I'd always got the impression they checked it was safe, and it already was (therefore empty), but this could be just my mind making assumptions.
DI Cook said at the trial that the gun was checked for bullets, but he didn't actually say whether any were found or not.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,185.0.html
His testimony is quite waffley really isn't it? He seems to answer a question without actually answering it.
So continuing with the scenario we are working with, assuming Sheila wasn't the killer. What reason would the police have for being cagey about how many bullets if any were left in the rifle?
I can't really see a reason for the police to be cagey on it...
The way I'm thinking though is that zero bullets lets feels strange... Sheila couldn't KNOW she'd need two to kill herself. She she was very lucky to have two left, or she had to get up and fetch another bullet!
But you don't know there were no bullets left, do you?
No we don't which is why we've said it holds no water as evidence.
In the meantime we can speculate what it would mean IF we can find the documents telling us what was found.
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So why start a thread on 'Sheila's last two bullets', when you've no idea if they were the last two bullets?
Because that has only just been established, after the thread had been started.
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Read the OP....
clear as day "ASSUMPTIONS"
Does anybody know who killed them all? only I want to start a thread and would like to know who did before suggest something
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AND... clearly her last two bullets WHERE her last two bullets...
regardless of JB shooting her, or Sheila shooting herself... the last two bullets into sheila...
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I don't think there is anything wrong with setting out a scenario to discuss the merits of. Nothing was presented as fact, indeed it was explicitly stated to be an assumption... AND it was even discounted once unable (at this time) to figure out either way.
A number of threads work on a starting assumption... usually Jeremy did it, or Sheila did it. Neither with proof they actually did it.
So what's the difference?
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I think what TBM did was perfectly legitimate and I for one relish his posts.
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I can't really see a reason for the police to be cagey on it...
The way I'm thinking though is that zero bullets lets feels strange... Sheila couldn't KNOW she'd need two to kill herself. She she was very lucky to have two left, or she had to get up and fetch another bullet!
Is there any mileage in the possibility that Sheila wasn't originally planned to be the suicide scapegoat, it's just that the way things unfolded that the opportunity presented itself to blame her?
I posted something about that too. It was Julie Mugford who said that Jeremy told her he could kill them and blame it on Sheila, but perhaps that wasn't the plan to start with.
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OK - some logical thinking for this one:
Assumptions: Sheila's killed everybody, and now it's time to kill herself (and NO remaining bullets found in the gun after she's found dead)...
- Sheila shoots herself, and it fails.
WHY is there a spare bullet in the gun for her to shoot herself again? (pure luck? did she load with two bullets 'just in case' ?
- Sheila shoots herself, and it fails.
There is NO spare bullet - she now has to go and GET ONE!!!! and come back to the same resting place to shoot herself again?
- Jeremy shoots her, and it fails.
He has to load the gun with another bullet (or there are still bullets remaining), so he shoots her for the second time then makes sure the gun is empty <----- MISTAKE here
For the gun to be empty when found, Sheila either got very lucky and it just happened to have two bullets left, OR she had to get up from the first shot, retrieve and load a new bullet, and then move back to the same place to shoot herself again
I think Jeremy made a mistake leaving the gun empty and didn't consider this strange situation.
Thoughts?
You're attempting to ascribe standards of rational logic to a paranoid Schizophrenic: the 'voices may have told her to do it.
Anyway, Mike says she did get up from the kitchen floor when she came round from the first shot and then went upstairs.
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I can't really see a reason for the police to be cagey on it...
The way I'm thinking though is that zero bullets lets feels strange... Sheila couldn't KNOW she'd need two to kill herself. She she was very lucky to have two left, or she had to get up and fetch another bullet!
Is there any mileage in the possibility that Sheila wasn't originally planned to be the suicide scapegoat, it's just that the way things unfolded that the opportunity presented itself to blame her?
Possible I suppose. He might just have been going for the robbery scenario. In which case, he'd need a way to carry some valuables, and in doing so, would immediately initiate a murder hunt.
The suicide works better for him, but as you say, he could have reached that conclusion mid crime.
I don't believe so though. I think whilst not meticulously planned, it was reasonably well plotted (just my opinion)
Ive been wondering,it may be the case that JB had been mulling over the scenario for a while,but the decision to actually carry out the murders that very night may have been spontanious.If,lets say,he was the culprit,he says he had supper with the family and went home between 9.30 and 10.00pm.Is there any evidence that he went home after supper?(there probably is just to scupper my theory)!It just seems odd that JB mentioned a heated discussion(presumably about sheila because this would fit with the sheila done it scenario) and the housekeeper or secretary who spoke to Ralph on the phone that evening seemed to imply that Ralph seemed pi**ed off.Im just not entirely convinced JB went home.Im wondering if he and his father were rowing and it kind of kicked off from there?
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interesting...
I don't know this, but I'd hazard at a guess that he'd need his car to be at the house... so did drive away from the house so his car could be seen at home.
Of course, he may have walked it to the house anyway, but still suspect he'd want to be seen arriving home, and leaving the car parked outside.
Although nobody could substantiate his alibi, I doubt many single men living in a village could substantiate their whereabouts in the early hours of the morning. Probably a few hundred men in the area without a corroborated alibi. All in bed, asleep, alone.
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OK - some logical thinking for this one:
Assumptions: Sheila's killed everybody, and now it's time to kill herself (and NO remaining bullets found in the gun after she's found dead)...
- Sheila shoots herself, and it fails.
WHY is there a spare bullet in the gun for her to shoot herself again? (pure luck? did she load with two bullets 'just in case' ?
- Sheila shoots herself, and it fails.
There is NO spare bullet - she now has to go and GET ONE!!!! and come back to the same resting place to shoot herself again?
- Jeremy shoots her, and it fails.
He has to load the gun with another bullet (or there are still bullets remaining), so he shoots her for the second time then makes sure the gun is empty <----- MISTAKE here
For the gun to be empty when found, Sheila either got very lucky and it just happened to have two bullets left, OR she had to get up from the first shot, retrieve and load a new bullet, and then move back to the same place to shoot herself again
I think Jeremy made a mistake leaving the gun empty and didn't consider this strange situation.
Thoughts?
You're attempting to ascribe standards of rational logic to a paranoid Schizophrenic: the 'voices may have told her to do it.
Anyway, Mike says she did get up from the kitchen floor when she came round from the first shot and then went upstairs.
Disagree entirely pure logic does not depend on state of mind... this isn't about how lucid anybody was or was not... it's about the number of bullets remaining in the gun upon the arms team gaining entry.
Then, working backwards, deducing that if no bullets remained, two bullets must have been in the gun, otherwise, a reload had to happen between shots to Sheila... all on the HUGE premise that sheila was the recipient of the last two shots.
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OK - some logical thinking for this one:
Assumptions: Sheila's killed everybody, and now it's time to kill herself (and NO remaining bullets found in the gun after she's found dead)...
- Sheila shoots herself, and it fails.
WHY is there a spare bullet in the gun for her to shoot herself again? (pure luck? did she load with two bullets 'just in case' ?
- Sheila shoots herself, and it fails.
There is NO spare bullet - she now has to go and GET ONE!!!! and come back to the same resting place to shoot herself again?
- Jeremy shoots her, and it fails.
He has to load the gun with another bullet (or there are still bullets remaining), so he shoots her for the second time then makes sure the gun is empty <----- MISTAKE here
For the gun to be empty when found, Sheila either got very lucky and it just happened to have two bullets left, OR she had to get up from the first shot, retrieve and load a new bullet, and then move back to the same place to shoot herself again
I think Jeremy made a mistake leaving the gun empty and didn't consider this strange situation.
Thoughts?
You're attempting to ascribe standards of rational logic to a paranoid Schizophrenic: the 'voices may have told her to do it.
Anyway, Mike says she did get up from the kitchen floor when she came round from the first shot and then went upstairs.
Disagree entirely pure logic does not depend on state of mind... this isn't about how lucid anybody was or was not... it's about the number of bullets remaining in the gun upon the arms team gaining entry.
Then, working backwards, deducing that if no bullets remained, two bullets must have been in the gun, otherwise, a reload had to happen between shots to Sheila... all on the HUGE premise that sheila was the recipient of the last two shots.
"Schizophrenia is a mental disorder characterized by a disintegration of thought processes and of emotional responsiveness.[1] It most commonly manifests as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking, and it is accompanied by significant social or occupational dysfunction. The onset of symptoms typically occurs in young adulthood...
A person diagnosed with schizophrenia may experience hallucinations (most reported are hearing voices), delusions (often bizarre or persecutory in nature), and disorganized thinking and speech. The latter may range from loss of train of thought, to sentences only loosely connected in meaning, to incoherence known as word salad in severe cases. " Wikipedia
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The last two bullets are a very important consideration. Dr Venezes stated that he didn't think she had been walking about after the first shot. [Unless she was naked or wearing something else and then washed??] That is based on the blood flow on her nightdress... still it wouldn't be the first time an expert has been wrong. Is it possible that one of the bullet casings found next to Shiela's body was a shot at Ralph and one of those in the kitchen was to Shiela? Did they find the bullet that caused the grazing wound to Ralph's arm? So many questions, so many possibilities!
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The last two bullets are a very important consideration. Dr Venezes stated that he didn't think she had been walking about after the first shot. [Unless she was naked or wearing something else and then washed??] That is based on the blood flow on her nightdress... still it wouldn't be the first time an expert has been wrong. Is it possible that one of the bullet casings found next to Shiela's body was a shot at Ralph and one of those in the kitchen was to Shiela? Did they find the bullet that caused the grazing wound to Ralph's arm? So many questions, so many possibilities!
The bullet which grazed Nevill's arm is a bit of a mystery and I'm not sure where it ended up.
It's possible that one of the casings next to Sheila came from a shot at Nevill - I hadn't considered that.
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If the gun was definately empty and this was recorded in police notebooks wouldn't the prosecution have made much of this or was it and I haven't read everything here?
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OK - some logical thinking for this one:
Assumptions: Sheila's killed everybody, and now it's time to kill herself (and NO remaining bullets found in the gun after she's found dead)...
- Sheila shoots herself, and it fails.
WHY is there a spare bullet in the gun for her to shoot herself again? (pure luck? did she load with two bullets 'just in case' ?
- Sheila shoots herself, and it fails.
There is NO spare bullet - she now has to go and GET ONE!!!! and come back to the same resting place to shoot herself again?
- Jeremy shoots her, and it fails.
He has to load the gun with another bullet (or there are still bullets remaining), so he shoots her for the second time then makes sure the gun is empty <----- MISTAKE here
For the gun to be empty when found, Sheila either got very lucky and it just happened to have two bullets left, OR she had to get up from the first shot, retrieve and load a new bullet, and then move back to the same place to shoot herself again
I think Jeremy made a mistake leaving the gun empty and didn't consider this strange situation.
Thoughts?
You're attempting to ascribe standards of rational logic to a paranoid Schizophrenic: the 'voices may have told her to do it.
Anyway, Mike says she did get up from the kitchen floor when she came round from the first shot and then went upstairs.
Disagree entirely pure logic does not depend on state of mind... this isn't about how lucid anybody was or was not... it's about the number of bullets remaining in the gun upon the arms team gaining entry.
Then, working backwards, deducing that if no bullets remained, two bullets must have been in the gun, otherwise, a reload had to happen between shots to Sheila... all on the HUGE premise that sheila was the recipient of the last two shots.
"Schizophrenia is a mental disorder characterized by a disintegration of thought processes and of emotional responsiveness.[1] It most commonly manifests as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking, and it is accompanied by significant social or occupational dysfunction. The onset of symptoms typically occurs in young adulthood...
A person diagnosed with schizophrenia may experience hallucinations (most reported are hearing voices), delusions (often bizarre or persecutory in nature), and disorganized thinking and speech. The latter may range from loss of train of thought, to sentences only loosely connected in meaning, to incoherence known as word salad in severe cases. " Wikipedia
And logic and thought are two distinct entities. That why the term 'logical thought' requires two words.
Absolutely right that Sheila could well not have been 'thinking' logically.... but I am wasn't concerned with her mind. Purely the 'logic' of how many bullets remained, and what that would inevitably tell us.
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The Boutflours didn't know if there were any bullets left in the magazine. If there had been they would surely have been sent for fingerprinting. Aware of that fact, they were worried that Shiela's thumb print would be found on the unspent bullets... what to do???? Up pops Boutflour snr with the 'Jeremy getting Shiela to load the magazine' story. He had to say she wouldn't do it because she wasn't supposed to know how to reload the gun. He even talks about them having found Shiela's prints on a couple of bullets 'but not on the magazine.
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Suggestion both bullets fired from same gun can no longer be entertained...
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EP arranged for the original fragmented bullet (PV/20) to be substituted for a whole bullet. So that they could claim the same gun, fired both bullets...
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From 7th August 1985, to 20th September 1985, the fragmented bullet (PV/20), existed, as an exhibit - evidence that was captured on X-rays, and referred to by the pathologist who physically removed the fragmented pieces of bullet from SC's neck - yet, EP replaced it with a control bullet, so that they could make the false claim, that the same gun fired the two bullets. The original fragmented bullet has not been seen since 20th September 1985, what did EP do with it? Should we the public put up with and tolorate such acts of wickedness? Surely not...
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Mike can I ask where you have obtained the information that PV/20 was once fragmented but is now whole?
The x-rays which you state as showing a fragmented bullet, are they your interpretation or have they been interpreted by an expert?
D. Taylor stated in a 'General Examination Record' that PV/20 was 'extensively damaged- prob. hit bone' and that it weighed 1.5453g. I don't seem to be able to find any mention that the bullet was in more than one piece.
Also the ballistics expert states that he microscopically compared test fired bullets and cartridges and all 25 bullets and cartridges taken from the scene and formed the opinion that all the wounds to the deceased were caused by bullets discharged from the Anshulz rifle.
As you can see this is in conflict with your opinion.
EDIT:
Another also :), could you explain why a fragmented bullet could not have been fired from the same weapon, I can't quite grasp why if it was fragmented, would it indicate that it was discharged from a different weapon to a whole bullet.
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Think the official line is that the x-ray shows a bullet and displaced tissues.
The alien/re-deposited tissue could have been caused by the second bullet, but that's my conjecture.
Otherwise MT is claiming the bullet fragmented into 4 (I think) pieces as the X-ray shows three 'rogues' in a different position to the actual bullet.
Yet the bullet to her brain countered both more and less yielding tissue and remained intact.
Mike needs to provide an expert opinion that is tested and testable.
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Expert pathologist, Peter Venezis, produced an autopsy report, in which he describes the bullet having struck a bone and fragmented upon impact - the X-ray confirms his findings..
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Expert pathologist, Peter Venezis, produced an autopsy report, in which he describes the bullet having struck a bone and fragmented upon impact - the X-ray confirms his findings..
Is this the same report which mentions about scratches to Sheila's arms? If so have you had any luck in locating it so we can see it?
And just for the sake of argument, would I be right in saying that if there were two bullets, one whole and one fragmented, then the only reason the fragmented bullet couldn't be linked to the Anshulz rifle is due to it's condition?
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Expert pathologist, Peter Venezis, produced an autopsy report, in which he describes the bullet having struck a bone and fragmented upon impact - the X-ray confirms his findings..
Which bullet? Which bone?
Can you post the segment/s of the report dealing with both bullets.
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Expert pathologist, Peter Venezis, produced an autopsy report, in which he describes the bullet having struck a bone and fragmented upon impact - the X-ray confirms his findings..
Is this the same report which mentions about scratches to Sheila's arms? If so have you had any luck in locating it so we can see it?
And just for the sake of argument, would I be right in saying that if there were two bullets, one whole and one fragmented, then the only reason the fragmented bullet couldn't be linked to the Anshulz rifle is due to it's condition?
Expert pathologist, Peter Venezis, produced an autopsy report, in which he describes the bullet having struck a bone and fragmented upon impact - the X-ray confirms his findings..
Which bullet? Which bone?
Can you post the segment/s of the report dealing with both bullets.
Mike T, do you any response to these questions?
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With regard to the number of bullets - any thoughts on Ann Eaton's statement regarding the identification of Sheila's body?
Apologies for a grim question, but the answer might have a bearing.
Does anyone know if the identification was carried out after the post-mortem examination had taken place?
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With regard to the number of bullets - any thoughts on Ann Eaton's statement regarding the identification of Sheila's body?
Do you mean that JM said she had been shot once in the neck? If you think about how bodies are "laid out" for identification, it is very similar to how you would see them in a coffin. With Sheila's body in this sort of position, and bearing in mind that she had been cleaned, I can imagine that her wounds were not very visible.
A conversation between JM and the police officer present something along the lines of "Where was she shot?" answer "Once under the chin" maybe.
I can't remember when she identified the bodies, does anyone know off hand? I just presumed it would be after post mortem.
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I know! The fact that the gun had no more bullets has puzzled me too.
Is it not possible that Sheila wasn't the last person shot? i.e. the reason the gun was empty was that JB (or some third party, of course) pumped all remaining bullets into the last victim, or possibly an already dead victim, before taking the empty gun back to the bedroom to stage the suicide?
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I know! The fact that the gun had no more bullets has puzzled me too.
Is it not possible that Sheila wasn't the last person shot? i.e. the reason the gun was empty was that JB (or some third party, of course) pumped all remaining bullets into the last victim, or possibly an already dead victim, before taking the empty gun back to the bedroom to stage the suicide?
Absolutely.
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With regard to the number of bullets - any thoughts on Ann Eaton's statement regarding the identification of Sheila's body?
Apologies for a grim question, but the answer might have a bearing.
Does anyone know if the identification was carried out after the post-mortem examination had taken place?
MB1.........I think the answer to your question would be yes,because JM whilst identifiying the bodies,asked why their heads had been shaved.
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quote author=chelmsey link=topic=495.msg9680#msg9680 date=1300409518]
With regard to the number of bullets - any thoughts on Ann Eaton's statement regarding the identification of Sheila's body?
Apologies for a grim question, but the answer might have a bearing.
Does anyone know if the identification was carried out after the post-mortem examination had taken place?
MB1.........I think the answer to your question would be yes,because JM whilst identifiying the bodies,asked why their heads had been shaved.
[/quote]
Thanks for finding out.
The wound tracks would have been 'excised'.
Probably appeared as one set of stitches - conclusion, one wound.
It's just made me think about this a little more.
My cousin/niece etc, little experience with guns, shoots 4 people (including one fairly old but physically impressive man) then kills herself. Hmmn, but if that's what they say.
Then learn she shot herself twice in the throat.
Alarm bells.
And as you've gathered, having the bit between my teeth doesn't moderate my sound!
I'd be in the police's faces as well.
Think if we're all honest, the 'two shots' suicide of a family member would make us all wonder.