The curious case of the Sheila's last two bullets.

[Hartley]

So why start a thread on 'Sheila's last two bullets', when you've no idea if they were the last two bullets?

Because that has only just been established, after the thread had been started.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Read the OP....

clear as day "ASSUMPTIONS"


Does anybody know who killed them all? only I want to start a thread and would like to know who did before suggest something

[TheBrilliantMistake]

AND... clearly her last two bullets WHERE her last two bullets...

regardless of JB shooting her, or Sheila shooting herself... the last two bullets into sheila...

[TheBrilliantMistake]

I don't think there is anything wrong with setting out a scenario to discuss the merits of. Nothing was presented as fact, indeed it was explicitly stated to be an assumption... AND it was even discounted once unable (at this time) to figure out either way.

A number of threads work on a starting assumption... usually Jeremy did it, or Sheila did it. Neither with proof they actually did it.

So what's the difference?

[Janet (Formerly known as Takeshi)]

I think what TBM did was perfectly legitimate and I for one relish his posts.

[Kaldin]

I can't really see a reason for the police to be cagey on it...

The way I'm thinking though is that zero bullets lets feels strange... Sheila couldn't KNOW she'd need two to kill herself. She she was very lucky to have two left, or she had to get up and fetch another bullet!

Is there any mileage in the possibility that Sheila wasn't originally planned to be the suicide scapegoat, it's just that the way things unfolded that the opportunity presented itself to blame her?

I posted something about that too. It was Julie Mugford who said that Jeremy told her he could kill them and blame it on Sheila, but perhaps that wasn't the plan to start with.

[chochokeira]

OK - some logical thinking for this one:


Assumptions: Sheila's killed everybody, and now it's time to kill herself (and NO remaining bullets found in the gun after she's found dead)...

- Sheila shoots herself, and it fails.
WHY is there a spare bullet in the gun for her to shoot herself again? (pure luck? did she load with two bullets 'just in case' ?

- Sheila shoots herself, and it fails.
There is NO spare bullet - she now has to go and GET ONE!!!! and come back to the same resting place to shoot herself again?

- Jeremy shoots her, and it fails.
He has to load the gun with another bullet (or there are still bullets remaining), so he shoots her for the second time then makes sure the gun is empty <----- MISTAKE here

For the gun to be empty when found, Sheila either got very lucky and it just happened to have two bullets left, OR she had to get up from the first shot, retrieve and load a new bullet, and then move back to the same place to shoot herself again


I think Jeremy made a mistake leaving the gun empty and didn't consider this strange situation.

Thoughts?

You're attempting to ascribe standards of rational logic to a paranoid Schizophrenic: the 'voices may have told her to do it.

Anyway, Mike says she did get up from the kitchen floor when she came round from the first shot and then went upstairs.

[chelmsey]

I can't really see a reason for the police to be cagey on it...

The way I'm thinking though is that zero bullets lets feels strange... Sheila couldn't KNOW she'd need two to kill herself. She she was very lucky to have two left, or she had to get up and fetch another bullet!

Is there any mileage in the possibility that Sheila wasn't originally planned to be the suicide scapegoat, it's just that the way things unfolded that the opportunity presented itself to blame her?

Possible I suppose. He might just have been going for the robbery scenario. In which case, he'd need a way to carry some valuables, and in doing so, would immediately initiate a murder hunt.

The suicide works better for him, but as you say, he could have reached that conclusion mid crime.

I don't believe so though. I think whilst not meticulously planned, it was reasonably well plotted (just my opinion)

Ive been wondering,it may be the case that JB had been mulling over the scenario for a while,but the decision to actually carry out the murders that very night may have been spontanious.If,lets say,he was the culprit,he says he had supper with the family and went home between 9.30 and 10.00pm.Is there any evidence that he went home after supper?(there probably is just to scupper my theory)!It just seems odd that JB mentioned a heated discussion(presumably about sheila because this would fit with the sheila done it scenario) and the housekeeper or secretary who spoke to Ralph on the phone that evening seemed to imply that Ralph seemed pi**ed off.Im just not entirely convinced JB went home.Im wondering if he and his father were rowing and it kind of kicked off from there?

[TheBrilliantMistake]

interesting...

I don't know this, but I'd hazard at a guess that he'd need his car to be at the house... so did drive away from the house so his car could be seen at home.

Of course, he may have walked it to the house anyway, but still suspect he'd want to be seen arriving home, and leaving the car parked outside.

Although nobody could substantiate his alibi, I doubt many single men living in a village could substantiate their whereabouts in the early hours of the morning. Probably a few hundred men in the area without a corroborated alibi. All in bed, asleep, alone.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

OK - some logical thinking for this one:


Assumptions: Sheila's killed everybody, and now it's time to kill herself (and NO remaining bullets found in the gun after she's found dead)...

- Sheila shoots herself, and it fails.
WHY is there a spare bullet in the gun for her to shoot herself again? (pure luck? did she load with two bullets 'just in case' ?

- Sheila shoots herself, and it fails.
There is NO spare bullet - she now has to go and GET ONE!!!! and come back to the same resting place to shoot herself again?

- Jeremy shoots her, and it fails.
He has to load the gun with another bullet (or there are still bullets remaining), so he shoots her for the second time then makes sure the gun is empty <----- MISTAKE here

For the gun to be empty when found, Sheila either got very lucky and it just happened to have two bullets left, OR she had to get up from the first shot, retrieve and load a new bullet, and then move back to the same place to shoot herself again


I think Jeremy made a mistake leaving the gun empty and didn't consider this strange situation.

Thoughts?

You're attempting to ascribe standards of rational logic to a paranoid Schizophrenic: the 'voices may have told her to do it.

Anyway, Mike says she did get up from the kitchen floor when she came round from the first shot and then went upstairs.

Disagree entirely pure logic does not depend on state of mind... this isn't about how lucid anybody was or was not... it's about the number of bullets remaining in the gun upon the arms team gaining entry.

Then, working backwards, deducing that if no bullets remained, two bullets must have been in the gun, otherwise, a reload had to happen between shots to Sheila... all on the HUGE premise that sheila was the recipient of the last two shots.

[chochokeira]

OK - some logical thinking for this one:


Assumptions: Sheila's killed everybody, and now it's time to kill herself (and NO remaining bullets found in the gun after she's found dead)...

- Sheila shoots herself, and it fails.
WHY is there a spare bullet in the gun for her to shoot herself again? (pure luck? did she load with two bullets 'just in case' ?

- Sheila shoots herself, and it fails.
There is NO spare bullet - she now has to go and GET ONE!!!! and come back to the same resting place to shoot herself again?

- Jeremy shoots her, and it fails.
He has to load the gun with another bullet (or there are still bullets remaining), so he shoots her for the second time then makes sure the gun is empty <----- MISTAKE here

For the gun to be empty when found, Sheila either got very lucky and it just happened to have two bullets left, OR she had to get up from the first shot, retrieve and load a new bullet, and then move back to the same place to shoot herself again


I think Jeremy made a mistake leaving the gun empty and didn't consider this strange situation.

Thoughts?

You're attempting to ascribe standards of rational logic to a paranoid Schizophrenic: the 'voices may have told her to do it.

Anyway, Mike says she did get up from the kitchen floor when she came round from the first shot and then went upstairs.

Disagree entirely pure logic does not depend on state of mind... this isn't about how lucid anybody was or was not... it's about the number of bullets remaining in the gun upon the arms team gaining entry.

Then, working backwards, deducing that if no bullets remained, two bullets must have been in the gun, otherwise, a reload had to happen between shots to Sheila... all on the HUGE premise that sheila was the recipient of the last two shots.

"Schizophrenia is a mental disorder characterized by a disintegration of thought processes and of emotional responsiveness.[1] It most commonly manifests as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking, and it is accompanied by significant social or occupational dysfunction. The onset of symptoms typically occurs in young adulthood...

A person diagnosed with schizophrenia may experience hallucinations (most reported are hearing voices), delusions (often bizarre or persecutory in nature), and disorganized thinking and speech. The latter may range from loss of train of thought, to sentences only loosely connected in meaning, to incoherence known as word salad in severe cases. " Wikipedia

[lebaleb]

The last two bullets are a very important consideration. Dr Venezes stated that he didn't think she had been walking about after the first shot. [Unless she was naked or wearing something else and then washed??] That is based on the blood flow on her nightdress... still it wouldn't be the first time an expert has been wrong. Is it possible that one of the bullet casings found next to Shiela's body was a shot at Ralph and one of those in the kitchen was to Shiela? Did they find the bullet that caused the grazing wound to Ralph's arm? So many questions, so many possibilities!

[Kaldin]

The last two bullets are a very important consideration. Dr Venezes stated that he didn't think she had been walking about after the first shot. [Unless she was naked or wearing something else and then washed??] That is based on the blood flow on her nightdress... still it wouldn't be the first time an expert has been wrong. Is it possible that one of the bullet casings found next to Shiela's body was a shot at Ralph and one of those in the kitchen was to Shiela? Did they find the bullet that caused the grazing wound to Ralph's arm? So many questions, so many possibilities!

The bullet which grazed Nevill's arm is a bit of a mystery and I'm not sure where it ended up.

It's possible that one of the casings next to Sheila came from a shot at Nevill - I hadn't considered that.

[Jackiepreece]

If the gun was definately empty and this was recorded in police notebooks wouldn't the prosecution have made much of this or was it and I haven't read everything here?

[TheBrilliantMistake]

OK - some logical thinking for this one:


Assumptions: Sheila's killed everybody, and now it's time to kill herself (and NO remaining bullets found in the gun after she's found dead)...

- Sheila shoots herself, and it fails.
WHY is there a spare bullet in the gun for her to shoot herself again? (pure luck? did she load with two bullets 'just in case' ?

- Sheila shoots herself, and it fails.
There is NO spare bullet - she now has to go and GET ONE!!!! and come back to the same resting place to shoot herself again?

- Jeremy shoots her, and it fails.
He has to load the gun with another bullet (or there are still bullets remaining), so he shoots her for the second time then makes sure the gun is empty <----- MISTAKE here

For the gun to be empty when found, Sheila either got very lucky and it just happened to have two bullets left, OR she had to get up from the first shot, retrieve and load a new bullet, and then move back to the same place to shoot herself again


I think Jeremy made a mistake leaving the gun empty and didn't consider this strange situation.

Thoughts?

You're attempting to ascribe standards of rational logic to a paranoid Schizophrenic: the 'voices may have told her to do it.

Anyway, Mike says she did get up from the kitchen floor when she came round from the first shot and then went upstairs.

Disagree entirely pure logic does not depend on state of mind... this isn't about how lucid anybody was or was not... it's about the number of bullets remaining in the gun upon the arms team gaining entry.

Then, working backwards, deducing that if no bullets remained, two bullets must have been in the gun, otherwise, a reload had to happen between shots to Sheila... all on the HUGE premise that sheila was the recipient of the last two shots.

"Schizophrenia is a mental disorder characterized by a disintegration of thought processes and of emotional responsiveness.[1] It most commonly manifests as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking, and it is accompanied by significant social or occupational dysfunction. The onset of symptoms typically occurs in young adulthood...

A person diagnosed with schizophrenia may experience hallucinations (most reported are hearing voices), delusions (often bizarre or persecutory in nature), and disorganized thinking and speech. The latter may range from loss of train of thought, to sentences only loosely connected in meaning, to incoherence known as word salad in severe cases. " Wikipedia

And logic and thought are two distinct entities. That why the term 'logical thought' requires two words.

Absolutely right that Sheila could well not have been 'thinking' logically.... but I am wasn't concerned with her mind. Purely the 'logic' of how many bullets remained, and what that would inevitably tell us.